Ret being support dps in legion.

[Karwyn]

Hey guys. I don't have alpha myself and in general I'm trying to avoid to much info about legion (wanting to experience it for myself) but I have been hearing disturbing things about ret pallies being specifically designed to be a weaker for of dps to compensate for the new blessings we are getting (which seem to be pretty universally despised anyway, can't say I love the idea of it either) I don't have alpha access myself or know any rets who do. Can someone who is in it please just give me an answer about rets "feeling" (I'm aware fun is subjective and numbers are subject to change, I just want to know that my main isn't going to feel like a sidekick come legion). Also is the blessing design set in stone or will blizz maybe realize how many people hate it and relent?

[Deleted]

dunno if I've misunderstood the 'blessing' system, but from what I understand the blessings can be self cast so the Paladin can take the full benefit and hypothetically be on par with the other DPS, but if they are for example on the lower end of skill or gear, they can use it to buff another player in the raid. I also think I read something about designing it so the additional damage/absorbs granted to the other player are credited to the paladin, for example if he or she gives a Death Knight Blessing of Might, the additional Holy Damage granted will count towards the Paladin's damage done, not the DKs.

[Karwyn]

Thank you for the reply squid. I believe you are correct about the blessing counting as the pallies dps, but if you are balanced around three dps having the blessing putting one on yourself will help but not make you equal and that's assuming you don't want to use one of the other blessings for your raid, and I don't think dps meters is the point, I want to be a warrior myself, not a squire helping the "real" warriors. The blessing system is only part of my concern, just in general the design philosiphy of "support dps" worries me. I don't want to feel like a sort of dps.

[Eapoe]

Tried explaining this in another thread so I'll see if it potentially makes sense to you. Yes, you are providing a buff that gives you damage, but it is not a hybrid or support tax that the other thread is trying to convince people of. It's a reward in group play. The example was as follows: in solo play you buff yourself and do 50k dps, a Mage solo plays and does 50k dps. You group up for raid and with consolidated buffs you now buff 3 people and with all other raid buffs brought, that Mage does 55k dps, the rogue does 55k dps, and you as a pally do 55-57k dps.
Some people are trying to factor the math and stating that it is a 9% damage increase from those buffs when this is very wrong. 10% chance on attacks for 30% of the attack to also be done to the target (where that 30% is the Paladins damage). The problem is, 10% does not translate 1/10 attacks procs it, it is based solely on 10% each attack, so amazing RNG can have all 10 proc or none. That's where Blizz stated they will be watching how the buff does and tune accordingly.
Some people feel that it will be so overpowered that the paladin will take a self nerf in damage to compensate, which again, is not true. Blizzard is tuning the buff around the thru put and numbers, not tuning the paladin around the buff. So, as I read Blizzards post on the subject, it's just extra damage you get in a raid.

[Deleted]

I see three ways how this can go:
1: The buff is going to be strong therefore Ret DPS has to be lower to compensate for that. Even if the damage the buff adds to friendly players counts towards the DPS of the Ret, Rets are going to be weaker DPS wise in Solo play since not all of the three Blessings are DPS buffs.
2: The buff is going to be strong und Ret damage is as high as the DPS of other Specs. In this case Ret is going to be Raid DPS wise superior to all other speccs, which would lead to class stacking in high end progression guilds.
3: Ret is going to be strong DPS wise therefore the buff would have to be weak to balance that out, in which case the buff could rather not even exist.
If the buff is not going to count towards Ret DPS but rather towards the DPS of the individual classes there are going to be fights over who gets the buff again. But I don't have Alpha access either so only time will tell what Blizz is going to do with the Blessings. Either way I can't see it end too well.

[mickybrighteyes]

I see three ways how this can go:
1: The buff is going to be strong therefore Ret DPS has to be lower to compensate for that. Even if the damage the buff adds to friendly players counts towards the DPS of the Ret, Rets are going to be weaker DPS wise in Solo play since not all of the three Blessings are DPS buffs.
2: The buff is going to be strong und Ret damage is as high as the DPS of other Specs. In this case Ret is going to be Raid DPS wise superior to all other speccs, which would lead to class stacking in high end progression guilds.
3: Ret is going to be strong DPS wise therefore the buff would have to be weak to balance that out, in which case the buff could rather not even exist.
If the buff is not going to count towards Ret DPS but rather towards the DPS of the individual classes there are going to be fights over who gets the buff again. But I don't have Alpha access either so only time will tell what Blizz is going to do with the Blessings. Either way I can't see it end too well.

might be the first time we'd see a raid stacking a melee dps class in like... a decade.

[Tyze]

How long is the buff?

[yeto]

might be the first time we'd see a raid stacking a melee dps class in like... a decade.

sup

[Matt0193]

I see three ways how this can go:
1: The buff is going to be strong therefore Ret DPS has to be lower to compensate for that. Even if the damage the buff adds to friendly players counts towards the DPS of the Ret, Rets are going to be weaker DPS wise in Solo play since not all of the three Blessings are DPS buffs.
2: The buff is going to be strong und Ret damage is as high as the DPS of other Specs. In this case Ret is going to be Raid DPS wise superior to all other speccs, which would lead to class stacking in high end progression guilds.
3: Ret is going to be strong DPS wise therefore the buff would have to be weak to balance that out, in which case the buff could rather not even exist.
If the buff is not going to count towards Ret DPS but rather towards the DPS of the individual classes there are going to be fights over who gets the buff again. But I don't have Alpha access either so only time will tell what Blizz is going to do with the Blessings. Either way I can't see it end too well.

1 - That is my biggest concern, especially as it affects PvP as well. Want to do 3's as a Ret? Well your damage is lower by default than any other damage dealer on paper because you only have 2 damaging targets which would gain a substantial bonus from BoM, and 3x BoM will be our baseline output comparison. That means you're probably using another buff (Kings as an absorb or Wisdom on a Healer) as utility but you're still sacrificing damage by design, which isn't fun for everyone.

2 - I doubt we'll ever be that good, if that ever ends up being the case (And I hope it does, simply because I dislike BoM as it stands and the Blessing concept in general for Legion) they'll nerf BoM to the point where it's a non-factor, meaning our individual output should go up to compensate.

3 - That's a fair point. As it stands on Legion you can get Judgement up on a 100% uptime through Zeal and Seal of Light (Overlap to account for latency or sloppy play) and with our mastery now being based around Judgement damage increases that means we'll either always be doing absurd burst hits with ES and TV spam through Ashbringer passives. Something has to give, unless they're actually going to let Ret be a legitimate #1 PvE spec by allowing us to double dip by benefitting from allies with an unnerfed BoM while doing huge chunks of damage ourselves. I doubt it, personally, but we'll have to see what they decide to do with the numbers pass in late alpha/early beta.

How long is the buff?

As it stands, an hour. It's functionality is essentially the same as old Focus Magic or Dark Intent.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

I promise you 100% that a ret will NEVER be allowed to keep a buff on himself, on openings you want them on your hunters and arcane mages- then on your warriors for execute range. Obviously that means you'll also be forced to change who you got buffs on, which I personally don't mind.

At the moment the 10% chance to do 30% extra damage is around 3% damage increase, however if the ret specs into it then it becomes 6%-6.5% damage increase (on average) PER BUFF. Meaning a Ret will bring his own dps + ~20% damage from buffs which is going to vary by who you got buffed... Does that mean Rets will be tuned to deal 80% of their "damage potential" because of the buffs? if not then what's stopping you from stacking rets until you're capped at buffs (which isn't that high, only takes 5 to reach all your dpsers)

[Ulthane]

Tried explaining this in another thread so I'll see if it potentially makes sense to you. Yes, you are providing a buff that gives you damage, but it is not a hybrid or support tax that the other thread is trying to convince people of. It's a reward in group play. The example was as follows: in solo play you buff yourself and do 50k dps, a Mage solo plays and does 50k dps. You group up for raid and with consolidated buffs you now buff 3 people and with all other raid buffs brought, that Mage does 55k dps, the rogue does 55k dps, and you as a pally do 55-57k dps.
Some people are trying to factor the math and stating that it is a 9% damage increase from those buffs when this is very wrong. 10% chance on attacks for 30% of the attack to also be done to the target (where that 30% is the Paladins damage). The problem is, 10% does not translate 1/10 attacks procs it, it is based solely on 10% each attack, so amazing RNG can have all 10 proc or none. That's where Blizz stated they will be watching how the buff does and tune accordingly.
Some people feel that it will be so overpowered that the paladin will take a self nerf in damage to compensate, which again, is not true. Blizzard is tuning the buff around the thru put and numbers, not tuning the paladin around the buff. So, as I read Blizzards post on the subject, it's just extra damage you get in a raid.

This all the way, which is why im for Blessings of Justice or a variant of it.

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I promise you 100% that a ret will NEVER be allowed to keep a buff on himself, on openings you want them on your hunters and arcane mages- then on your warriors for execute range. Obviously that means you'll also be forced to change who you got buffs on, which I personally don't mind.

At the moment the 10% chance to do 30% extra damage is around 3% damage increase, however if the ret specs into it then it becomes 6%-6.5% damage increase (on average) PER BUFF. Meaning a Ret will bring his own dps + ~20% damage from buffs which is going to vary by who you got buffed... Does that mean Rets will be tuned to deal 80% of their "damage potential" because of the buffs? if not then what's stopping you from stacking rets until you're capped at buffs (which isn't that high, only takes 5 to reach all your dpsers)

Which brings up the thought process: If we are to be swapping buffs around and having a support role that ties into the raid's overall damage which can reflect the leadership fantasy and support fantasy of the Paladin then our Niche as a whole will need to reflect support and dps. I went off a few times saying we need reflective damage but if they are approaching ret as a harder dps variant of Uther (IE damage support build in Heroes of the Storm) then they need to make more talents reflecting this. So if our role in the raid will be apply buff to this person then this person in accordance to whats going on that is actually okay and can be fun to some. However if this is the case of what we are to do we need to see talents on par with Blessings of Justice and continue to fill that niche. Personally id rather have a buffing, reflecting damage spec that can self sustain via mitigation, but if this is going to be forced then the entire tree needs to reflect this feel which at the moment it does not.

[Shelly]

I'm sorry that I can't give you hard data to back things up - frankly no one can though we'll see some fancy returns probably later this week as people run their PvP premades through the raid on the alpha server.

Don't be so worried about the idea of loss of damage or personal throughput that you miss flavor.

Ret will not be returning to the days of Vanilla or BC where you are almost limp-wristed in terms of damage. If nothing else you can look at overall DPS throughout WoD for an example of just how tightly Blizz is now able to tune class DPS rankings to get them all at reasonable levels. Maybe not all within 5% of each other, but all at levels where you really have to work at it to screw yourself over completely.

The Ret we are seeing now is pretty heavily reflective of what the Paladin was in WC3. That's an exceptionally good thing in terms of flavor, especially when combined with the overall improvements to gameplay.

All that said I'm not worried about the blessings, but I am still on the fence about how Ret is being made into a version of the arms warrior with judgment taking the place of colossus smash. It's not often a type of gameplay I personally find engaging.

[Coffeh]

All that said I'm not worried about the blessings, but I am still on the fence about how Ret is being made into a version of the arms warrior with judgment taking the place of colossus smash. It's not often a type of gameplay I personally find engaging.

Really wish they could come up with a better mastery than literally copying colossus smash.

[Karwyn]

This all the way, which is why im for Blessings of Justice or a variant of it.

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If we are to be swapping buffs around and having a support role that ties into the raid's overall damage which can reflect the leadership fantasy and support fantasy of the Paladin then our Niche as a whole will need to reflect support and dps.

This is one of my biggest problems with the whole class fantasy buzzword they have. They are taking characters we have played for years and changing them based on an idea of what the class means that we may not share. It would be fine if the game had launched with the idea of this because you would know what you are getting into but changing it midway just feels bad. Combat rogues for example covered any stand up warrior who was quick and agile rather than brute force. Now, you are a swashbuckler (pirate) if you had the idea that your character was anything else, tough. I'm not that worried about numbers, I have played the class that was bottom on theoretical dps before, I maanage to squeeze through by trying harder. but I hate this idea that my holy knight and asskicker is a fricking sidekick. we aren't captain america here "commanding" our allies or "leading the charge" we are being made into buff bitches. not the same fricking thing.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

They aren't support DPS.
The blessing benefits are attributed to your throughput.
It will be a DPS increase for you to pick the correct target.

This is a stark difference from Classic where you literally did 1/10th of the damage of a rogue and were just brought to judge for mana and to proc Nightfall. THAT was support DPS.
You should do some research on what you are talking about.
I'd recommend MMOchampion.

[bloodmoth13]

Hey guys. I don't have alpha myself and in general I'm trying to avoid to much info about legion (wanting to experience it for myself) but I have been hearing disturbing things about ret pallies being specifically designed to be a weaker for of dps to compensate for the new blessings we are getting (which seem to be pretty universally despised anyway, can't say I love the idea of it either) I don't have alpha access myself or know any rets who do. Can someone who is in it please just give me an answer about rets "feeling" (I'm aware fun is subjective and numbers are subject to change, I just want to know that my main isn't going to feel like a sidekick come legion). Also is the blessing design set in stone or will blizz maybe realize how many people hate it and relent?

You heard wrong, just typical wow hysteria, nothing to see.

Basically paladins get an ability that makes them stronger in a group, the blessings are just passive damage effects that require a friend to activate, so no paladins wont be sub par dps, again its just typical hysteria

[Karwyn]

or you guys could do some research and see that there is a blue post confirming that ret dps is being balanced lower to make up for the blessings, I believe it was even posted on mmo champion. Also its not solely the blessings, have you seen the heals in our talent tree? heard blizzard themselves refer to us as a support dps for the fantasy? I'm guessing either you don't play a paladin or you are just uninformed. Also does nothing to counter my point about being shoehorned into a fantasy we never chose for a character you may have been playing for ten years.

Edit" And the fact that it counts as the paladins dmg is not actually important unless all you care about is the dps meter which ironically is what most people who are arguing for the changes seem to believe those who don't like them care about.

[Deleted]

So? Didn't you get used by now to not being chosen for rbgs?

[Celebhil]

according to logs that some alpha players shared (albeit rotation is not always executed perfectly), blessing of might was at the bottom rungs for ret dmg every time. Now would this be enough dps to sliver in a close raid fight/ a nudge to get some other players dps to a tipping point of making a kill instead of wipe? maybe, but a ret's dmg output and "retribution" buff when another player dies will carry more weight.

[Ulthane]

This is one of my biggest problems with the whole class fantasy buzzword they have. They are taking characters we have played for years and changing them based on an idea of what the class means that we may not share. It would be fine if the game had launched with the idea of this because you would know what you are getting into but changing it midway just feels bad. Combat rogues for example covered any stand up warrior who was quick and agile rather than brute force. Now, you are a swashbuckler (pirate) if you had the idea that your character was anything else, tough. I'm not that worried about numbers, I have played the class that was bottom on theoretical dps before, I maanage to squeeze through by trying harder. but I hate this idea that my holy knight and asskicker is a fricking sidekick. we aren't captain america here "commanding" our allies or "leading the charge" we are being made into buff bitches. not the same fricking thing.

Well if they want to throw us that way then this is how they gotta do it. But I agree with you 100%. But seeing the thought process of the "buff bitch" then if they pull that then they better damn make it feel like Retribution. As in im going to channel my wrath through everyone until I get there to kick your ass myself.

Abilities

-Crusader Strike: Remove cooldown. Generates 1 Holy Power.
-Blade of Justice: Unchanged
-Judgment: Unchanged
-Consecration: Baseline
-Flash of Light: As is
-Sword of Light: No longer deals increased damage. Your Crusader Strike reduces all your cooldowns by .5 to 1 second per hit. In addition every time you consume Holy Power you are healed to a % of the abilities healing amount or damage. (Caked in sanctity of battle) Haste increases this cooldown reduction.
-Divine Intervention: Baseline ret, this does not trigger Divine Shield's cooldown.
-Shield of Vengeance: Scales off a % your Max HP for the absorb. Cooldown lowered to 1 minute.
-Heart of the Crusader: Now also affects run speed.
-Greater Blessing of Might: Now instead increases all secondary and primary stats by a %.
-Greater Blessing of Kings: The absorb now scales with the target's max hp.
-Greater Blessing of Wisdom: Increased frequency to once every 3 seconds.
-Blessing of Protection: Cooldown reduced by 1/2
-Blessing of Freedom: In addition when used on an ally the cooldown is reduced by half.
-Divine Storm: Unchanged
-Templar's Verdict: Unchanged
-Repentance: Baseline.
-Retribution Aura: Protection and Retribution baseline.

Okay ideas for Abilities but on the bench about them
-Conviction: Generate 1 Holy Power every 1 second in combat if you have not directly attacked an enemy for X seconds.
-Retribution: When you die come back as a Spirit of Retribution for 10 seconds.

Talents
-Level 15: Burst row.
--Execution Sentence: Consume 3 Holy Power to slam the enemy with holy might dealing massive damage, 8 yard range. 30 second cooldown.
--Holy Wrath: Channel Holy Wrath dealing split holy damage to all enemies within 8 yards every second for 5 seconds, haste increases how fast you channel. Generate 1 Holy Power every second. 20 second cooldown.
--Turaylon's Might: Judgment now affects your target with Consecration. This does not trigger the cooldown of Consecration.

-Level 30: Secondary Ability row
--Fires of Justice: Crusader Strike now deals additional Holy/Fire damage over 8 seconds stacking up to 10 times.
--Virtue's Blade: Now always critically strikes. Critical strike chance increases it's damage done.
--Mass Judgment: Judgment now lasts 100% longer and affects all targets within 8 yards of the primary target.

-Level 45: CC Row
--Fist of Justice: Reduces the cooldown of Hammer of Justice by 30sec, increases its range by 10yds, and it is no longer a magic effect.
--And Justice for All: Hammer of Justice now affects all targets within 8 yards of the primary target.
--Blinding Light: 1 minute CD, still deals damage.

-Level 60: Utility Row.
--Word of Glory: 3 Holy Power. Heal targets affected by your Greater Blessings and in addition increase the damage and healing they do by 15% for 10 seconds.
--Blaze of Light: Replaces Flash of Light. A strong heal. If you target a player with your Greater Blessings you increase their damage and healing done by 30% for 10 seconds and the healing of Blaze of Light will be increased. If used this way Blaze of Light will be instant cast and incur a 30 second cooldown. This is not affected by Sword of Light.
--Blessed Champion: Your attacks heal the targets of your Greater Blessings by a % and a % of that healing is added to their next damage or healing ability.

-Level 75: Seal Row
--Seal of Command: Your attacks have a chance to empower allies targeted by your Blessings. Empowered allies deal % of your weapon damage as Holy. Judgment now also grants an additional chance for your allies targeted by Greater Blessings to deal additional % of your weapon damage as holy.
--Seal of Truth: Your attacks have a chance to empower your allies targeted by your Blessings. Empowered allies deal additional damage as holy damage over 10 seconds stacking up to 5 times. Judgment now empowers targets of your Greater Blessings to always deal additional damage as Holy damage.
--Seal of the Crusader: Increases your haste, crit, mastery by a % and your attacks have a chance to grant your allies targeted by Blessings to grant them an increase in their highest secondary stat. Judgment now also grants an additional chance for your allies targeted by Greater Blessings to gain % in secondary stats.

-Level 90: Rebound damage row.
--Equality: When you take Fatal damage you unleash a blast of Holy Light dealing damage equal/based to your missing health split among targets within 8 yards around you. This has a 2.5 minute cooldown. Passive. Affected by Sword of Light. This damage is affected by Judgment.
--Eye for an Eye: For 10 seconds every time you take damage your primary target if they are in melee range takes weapon damage as Holy Damage. This damage is affected by Judgment. 1 minute cooldown.
--Shield of Wrath: Increase the absorb of Shield of Vengeance and in addition damage is no longer split.

-Level 100: Support Row
--Blessings of Justice: Increase the power of your Greater Blessings by 100%.
--Blessings of Supremacy: Your Greater Blessings now apply the other Greater Blessings to your target. This does not breach the cap of 3 targets.
--Empowered Seals: Your Seal talents now have 100% proc chance and in addition your Judgment has a chance to trigger the Judgment of another Seal talent.

Artifact
-Ashes to Ashes: Your Holy Power consumers will unleash a bolt of Righteous Fire at the enemy dealing damage and additional Holy/Fire damage over 5 seconds.
-Echo of the Highlord: Now affects all Holy Power consumers.
-Blade of Light: Increases the value of which Crusader Strike reduces cooldowns via Sword of Light by .1 seconds per rank.
-Sharpened Edge: Now instead increases your Critical Strike chance by 1% per rank.
-Endless Resolve: Forbearance no longer affects you.
-Protector of the Ashen Blade: Increases the rate in which Sword of Light reduces the cooldown of Blessing of Protection.


Removed Abilities/Talents
-Divine Steed: Since Heart of the Crusader would affect move speed and since you can virtually buff swap people and buff their damage further even if far away there would be no need for enhanced mobility.
-Divine Hammer: Consecration being baseline, and the rate of which Crusader Strike generates holy power (removing our throttled finisher output) there would be no need for this ability.
-Blade of Wrath: Was very redundant.
-Zeal: As much as I like the concept I feel it was redundant as well.
-Crusader Flurry: I thought about keeping it in as deal three Crusader Strikes at once and proc 3x seal of light and 3x holy power but I felt with everything on the tree it clashed and was redundant.

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The thought did come to me that if you had all three buffs on you that stuff that triggered on an ally with the buff would double or triple over depending on how many buffs you had. Not sure how broken that would be but if you were to play with all buffs on you this means that every time you trigger a Seal or something its like pure holy power is flowing through you meeting the Retribution feel just through empowering yourself with the Light. Otherwise I agree with you tons. Took a ton of thought to even get a suggestion about this right or close to right.