Pro/Cons Loot Council

[Sierra85]

Instead of having a council of three or more people, we have the council of Dave. Dave is one of the officers who is an older gamer, instantly likable with good people skills and no penchant for favoritism or prestige. He sorts out the loot according to his own mysterious designs and everyone is happy.

Get a Dave today!

sounds open to abuse. what if someone bribes dave or sucks up to him very subtley.

[Sparty]

If you're in a Mythic raiding guild and you don't trust your guild to distribute loot fairly/appropriately via Loot Council, you're in the wrong guild.

[Dracodraco]

sounds open to abuse. what if someone bribes dave or sucks up to him very subtley.

Only people who wants to discredit Dave would suggest such a thing! BURN HIM AT THE STAKES! OPEN THE RECRUITMENT TO REPLACE HIS SPOT IMMIDIATELLY! DAVE MUST NOT BE QUESTIONED!

If you're in a Mythic raiding guild and you don't trust your guild to distribute loot fairly/appropriately via Loot Council, you're in the wrong guild.

Sparty would you give me loot ?

[Sparty]

Draco, every day, forever.

[Rotted]

No, you simply had a terrible guild. Or guilds. This is not a problem with loot council, but poor leadership.

Most of my past guilds use loot council, and we rarely had loot drama. Sure, occasionally someone might get unhappy, but it is the same with EPGP or DKP. You deal with it by being transparent, and let everyone know the loot council's reasoning in any case of dispute.

In any case, my current guild uses EPGP, and we get way more loot disputes than with loot council previously in other guilds. The blame always lie with the players, not the loot system.

It TURNED terrible because of the system. Not just the loot system to be fair, there were other factors, I haven't heard of a single guild that uses that system without there being QQ.

EPGP 10% has issues, but I still think its the fairest way to go, you need to participate to keep a score, getting an item reduces your point, not taking part you lose your points. Mind you Ive yet to meet a guild who takes RL circumstances into consideration, again, one of mine - grand mother got seriously ill, and for the last 2 weeks she was alive bought home where she died, obv wasn't raiding for three of those weeks. Came back, lost the majority of epgp, other people got a shit ton, I was next in line for a BiS trinket, it took 3 months before I finally got it. FML.

[Deleted]

No, you simply had a terrible guild. Or guilds. This is not a problem with loot council, but poor leadership. Most of my past guilds use loot council, and we rarely had loot drama. Sure, occasionally someone might get unhappy, but it is the same with EPGP or DKP. You deal with it by being transparent, and let everyone know the loot council's reasoning in any case of dispute. In any case, my current guild uses EPGP, and we get way more loot disputes than with loot council previously in other guilds. The blame always lie with the players, not the loot system.

+1 That's the truth of it, council is the best. Humans are humans, and whatever elaborate system with points you choose, humans are going to game it and if they don't want you to take loot, you're not getting loot eventually; it may not happen today but make no mistake, you will not take loot at some point if they don't want you to, even if it means not being in the raid entirely. The only way council doesn't work is if it doesn't operate well, meaning drama, or not including all people in it. I think the best way to handle council is to have the officers/leaders having the first say, but, include everyone else in to have a say to make a final decision. OK, maybe the trials could be excluded obviously from having a say. If it works well in most cases a /roll is enough without saying anything and in other cases one can call an injustice on the spot.

[Wilderness]

It TURNED terrible because of the system. Not just the loot system to be fair, there were other factors, I haven't heard of a single guild that uses that system without there being QQ.

EPGP 10% has issues, but I still think its the fairest way to go, you need to participate to keep a score, getting an item reduces your point, not taking part you lose your points. Mind you Ive yet to meet a guild who takes RL circumstances into consideration, again, one of mine - grand mother got seriously ill, and for the last 2 weeks she was alive bought home where she died, obv wasn't raiding for three of those weeks. Came back, lost the majority of epgp, other people got a shit ton, I was next in line for a BiS trinket, it took 3 months before I finally got it. FML.

It may be a "fairer" system, but it is not the most efficient or optimal loot system. Whether a raid is more determined to maximize their gearing, and thus their progress, or would rather be in a fairer system that distributes loot more evenly is up to the raid and their goals. Neither is a wrong answer, what's best for each raid team isn't necessarily the same.

[Deleted]

NEVER use loot like this. If the person really is underperforming, bench them. If you continually funnel loot to the people who are over performing you just widen the gap...which means you'll continue to funnel loot to the high performers, which widens the gap which means....

Keep loot separate from managing the raid and dealing with performance problems. Loot should be about one thing - given this loot, how do we award it so it helps the raid most?



This too. Don't tell people who are mythic level raiders that you know their class stats better than they do. Unless it's your class too, you likely don't and, if you do, you have an issue where you have a raider who doesn't know their class (and spec). THAT's the issue... go correct that.

That's one of the harder things about LC, too; keeping on top of what's really good for classes.

Point 1: At the start you tell me to NEVER use loot like this, then afterwards you say to distribute loot to make sure the raid functions? You don't give loot to people in hopes they play better, you give loot to the person who can make the most use of it and to make sure it has the biggest benefit to the raid. I don't understand what you're trying to say.

Point 2: If you're on a Loot Council it's because you know their classes stuff, probably better than they do. If you have enough knowledge of where to look for the latest theorycrafting then so should they and they wouldn't be spouting nonsense

[bicycle]

It may be a "fairer" system, but it is not the most efficient or optimal loot system. Whether a raid is more determined to maximize their gearing, and thus their progress, or would rather be in a fairer system that distributes loot more evenly is up to the raid and their goals. Neither is a wrong answer, what's best for each raid team isn't necessarily the same.

That's really what it comes down to in the end. Are you there to kill bosses? Then loot council and make sure it goes to whoever will gain the most DPS from it first and foremost. Are you just there to hang out and get everyone gear equally? Then fuck it, use some kind of points system to try and be "fair."

[friedmudkipz]

Its a fucking terrible system

I have raided with it in tbc, wrath, cataclysm (mostly epgp with 10% decay)

People say all the time oh if you have fair people it works. You. Don't. Get. Fair. People. End of. Sure it might start off all well but it will always turn to shit. Example, the guild I was in wrath, we had a twenty five man team, we had ten man teams. We tried the loot council and it was awful, favoritism going on, people we were doing the most damage, was getting the loot, the reason? They carry they get the shinies. Each week that gap grew and people started leaving. GM put an end to it and put us back on epgp, after a couple week on that, boom progress boss down.

Into cataclysm, with shared 10/25 manlock outs, we stuck with 25 man, the new GM (one of the elitests ofc) put back the loot council, He wanted the best to get the best for the first month or so, so we could get a decent ranking, then he said everyone would have a fair share. Herp derp we got a decent spot, and ten decent geared players, the following week it was officially a 10 man raiding guild, looking for fresh blood, the second half of the 25 man team was outed and told to make their own 10 man. Needless to say, it caused a rift and break down of the guild. Granted not directly look council on its ow, but a major part.

That's a problem with your guild being shit, not the loot system. In decent guilds that have officers with some modicum of emotional maturity, loot council is the only way to efficiently assign loot. Any other system would be a hindrance to proper progression.

As a side note, perhaps your criticism is flavored with a bit of salt due to being passed over for loot?

[Rotted]

It may be a "fairer" system, but it is not the most efficient or optimal loot system. Whether a raid is more determined to maximize their gearing, and thus their progress, or would rather be in a fairer system that distributes loot more evenly is up to the raid and their goals. Neither is a wrong answer, what's best for each raid team isn't necessarily the same.

Tbh, I'd probably only ever run with loot council again with RL people, and in fairness, not many guilds need the "most efficient or optimal system" if your running world first or server first, then yes you do, and I can see a fair council group working the figures and min / maxing everything, But for guilds that are clearning content (after firsts have been achieved) I don't see it making a massive difference to clearing content time wise. Mind you, we've all had one that experience at some point of a wipe of under 1% hp left on a progress boss

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

There are no cons. The system grants the people who run the guild the right to distribute loot the way they want.
If you don't agree with how they do it, talk to them.
Its not the systems fault.

Meanwhile, in other systems you have people who barely contribute not taking gear in order to build up points and then take an item that isn't amazing for them, but IS amazing for a top contributor.

These systems worked in 40 mans, but I will absolutely never let a trinket that is BIS for a top player go to some one who doesn't contribute as much or isn't even able to use the trinket in the same way.

[Rotted]

That's a problem with your guild being shit, not the loot system. In decent guilds that have officers with some modicum of emotional maturity, loot council is the only way to efficiently assign loot. Any other system would be a hindrance to proper progression.

As a side note, perhaps your criticism is flavored with a bit of salt due to being passed over for loot?

Not really salt, I used to raid to see the stuff and have something to do, and physically see the item dropping used to excite me enough, actually get one was a big thing, but I quite frequently used to pass on loot which was a better upgrade for other team members, I wasn't the best and it wouldn't make that big of a difference to my performance. I tend not to get salty over anything ingame loot wise,

I get annoyed ingame when people who have been raiding together for years stab each other in the back, cause arguments, raid team breakers, etc, its the main reason I stopped.

Granted though, all the loot councils on raid teams I've been on are all adult, 30+ range, but act as emotional teen girls. Drama constantly, stabbing people in the back, giving their friends priority etc. I dunno, they never used to be like that, sure we always had one or two, but over wrath most of them just got to big for their boots.

Hell the guild I'm talking about now is still going, and they've had a loyal member from late wrath, raiding every week until end of MoP, went down to raiding as a back up, once every few weeks. One night two weeks ago, someone made a comment about her (they were a new trial) not being geared as the rest of the team, she politely said excuse me, A) Im back up, B) I don't get as much loot because of A, C) you've been here less than 24 hours, maybe you should try not criticising long standing members. or something along those lines, apparently the new officers haven't liked her since wrath and booted her out because of it.

So yea don't get me wrong the guild was good, but the officer changes over the year are what's terrible, and its normally officers who make up the loot councils

[steveh]

Essentially, I feel like LC is a loot system that allows you to setup your own loot system. It allows the most flexibility of loot systems which has, as many in this thread have pointed out, its strengths and weaknesses. You COULD setup an EPGP/DKP system such that it takes into account some of the "rules" people mentioned in their LC. For example, people talk about using LC to prioritize someone getting 4 piece instead of 1 tier piece across 4 people. You could setup a system in EPGP whereby if you have one tier piece, you get a large discount on the GP cost of a 2nd tier piece thus making it easier for one person to pick up their 2 or 4 set.

Or if you want to reward top performers of a class, link their EP reward to their dps and dmg taken for the fight or bonus for performing hunter "bitch" jobs.

I'm not saying either of these additions to an EPGP system are "good" but I'm just illustrating that you can take something like EPGP and define additional rules on top of it to try to accomplish your goals. The problem comes in where your rules or priorities change as the tier or expansion go on. At the beginning, maybe you want to gear up fotm classes first and then evenly gear the raid group. In the middle of an expansion, you want to maintain gear going evenly and pay attention to who has been loyal in their attendance, and then at the end, you want to give those BiS expansion pieces to only the top performers. LC gives you the power to change your rules on the fly vs EPGP where you can make modifications, but it has a whole history to account for. Many guilds reset epgp at the beginning of an expansion. If then mid-expansion, you want to reward more for attendance, then your numbers might get skewed if you don't tweak it right. It gets complex.

With LC, you just inform your raiders that in the next raid lockout/tier/whatever, the council is going to pay more attention to attendance and weight their decision more heavily towards that new factor. No system to tweak, no complex math to figure out, you just state it and then do it.

FYI, this opinion of mine is from a GM/RL/Raider who has been thru the paces with EPGP for most guilds I've been a part of and then now has been doing LC for the last expansion+. I was hesitant for all the reasons listed that having a LC would be corruptable but I must say the loot drama this expansion has been kept to a minimum and only has really come up when the council has made mistakes either in applying their normal rules, tried to do something outside of the rules or had a miscommunication about the system and how decisions were made.

Someone alluded to this earlier, but as an added benefit, it allows you to have more frank discussions about people's performance if you base some of your loot decisions on that factor. Didn't get that big trinket upgrade? Well we gave it to the better mage, so step it up and we'll put it in your hands next time because we see your performance makes it a no-brainer to improve the group overall. Continue to be a shitter, and we'll keep giving that trinket to others more deserving.

[Wilderness]

Tbh, I'd probably only ever run with loot council again with RL people, and in fairness, not many guilds need the "most efficient or optimal system" if your running world first or server first, then yes you do, and I can see a fair council group working the figures and min / maxing everything, But for guilds that are clearning content (after firsts have been achieved) I don't see it making a massive difference to clearing content time wise. Mind you, we've all had one that experience at some point of a wipe of under 1% hp left on a progress boss

I agree that it wouldn't make a massive difference, but I do believe it makes a difference. There are lots of people who play in guilds that are focused on progression, to the best of their abilities, which are well away from the WF race. If that kind of mindset is what the people in the raid have, then they may want to maximize however they can. They are probably competing within their region, their country, their server, or whatever. That competition, or clearing as fast as they are able to, is what they want to do, and using loot council can further that. It can also be abused too, no one denies that. But it is most efficient if progression is truly everyone's goal.

[kamuimac]

It may be a "fairer" system, but it is not the most efficient or optimal loot system. Whether a raid is more determined to maximize their gearing, and thus their progress, or would rather be in a fairer system that distributes loot more evenly is up to the raid and their goals. Neither is a wrong answer, what's best for each raid team isn't necessarily the same.

this is very very true and its the very common mistake that a lot of raiders do when applying to guild they forget that its not only them being interviewed by guild if they fit in but its also time when they should very deeply evaluate if the guild is good fit for them - they dont ask what is the main goal and main tools to achieve that goal ad then frustration happens when they end up in real progression guild but want to be treated as if they were still in laid back guild where everyone is treated fair.

[Deleted]

If you can trust the people on your loot council - it's the best loot-system for any raid.

However - if you care most about your gear - it is not the greatest. Because a good loot council will always go for the most improvement in performance for every item.

[Marrilaife]

Our issue is recruitment, late game, I know, but I have had several great interviews, but get to loot in the conversation, we use epgp with 10% decay every raid with a sound system of EP reward timed towards kills, attempts and hourly, that causes me to keep getting nope from potential raiders.

Wow, and I thought I was the only one... Having few months ago to find a new guild I chose one with loot council over one with epgp in no time. I certainly don't enjoy feeling it's better to shard minor upgrades to dkp hoard for the bis, and that's what all the epgp, suicide kings, dkp etc. systems promote. Throwing away semi optimal loot and bidding wars.

The biggest downside of loot council is your master looter needs to have a clue (or the loot council). In case they don't, a guild might ask raiders to write on forums their BIS list, like my guild in mop did. So they know which item is BIS for which class.

If the guild isn't full of douches you can also ask people who want the item how good / important it is for them. Especially in cases of trinkets classes usually go for very specific ones.

Also many guilds use rc loot council addon which as far as I know shows you item equipped in the slot a person is rolling for. So for example if people roll for tier token you can see if they have it and which version. And give to the person who has the worst copy. Obviously that doesn't exclude other rules your guild puts. Most guilds have rules ms before os, full raiders before trials and so on.

[Boneshatter]

The best way I have ever experienced loot council (and it worked beautifully) is as such with no addons-

Step 1- Establish a loot master. This person needs to not be the raid leader or guild master as this person will have a little work to do and those previously mentioned have enough going on. This person also needs to not be the hubs/wife/bf/gf of the raid leader or guild master to make it more fair.

Step 2- Establish a loot council. This council works best with 3 people. Its an odd number so there is never a tie, but isn't a massive number of people that would make every decision super slow. The best 3 would be the loot master, the raid leader, and the guild master. If the raid leader and guild master are the same person (usually not a great idea as it would be easy to overwhelm that person) then have another officer be the third.

Step 3- At the start of every raid tier all of your raiders need to submit to the loot master their best in slot list.

Step 4- Your loot master needs to keep a spiral/notebook/whatever with a separate page for each week that lists what all dropped and who got it.

Step 5- Decide any loot restrictions. Do you have a trial period for new recruits? Do you prefer to gear dps first or tanks and healers first? Decide in advance

Now we get into what happens when stuff actually drops. The loot master should have master looter and link in raid chat what dropped. Everybody else needs to get away from the boss or this process will be greatly slowed down (we had everybody except the LM go start clearing trash). The loot master then links each piece individually to see who is interested in the piece. It works best if there is a predetermined thing to type into raid chat so nobody is overlooked, misunderstood, or not heard in voice speak. Avoid simple or common things- make it something odd that isn't likely to be a normal part of chat.

When deciding who gets a piece you must take several factors into account. Is it BiS for anybody (no cheesing here, lists are on record)? How big of an ilevel upgrade is it? Have the people that want it received any other drops this week? If it is BiS for more than 1 person does anybody have a lower ilevel version of the same item (especially important for tier and trinkets)? You want to keep it as fair as possible while upholding the guild's rules. Because of the random nature of drops BiS will usually trump anything else because it is entirely possible to never see that item again. When 2 people look to have equal claim to an item when all things are considered then just use a friendly /roll.

Tier pieces do have to be handled differently and fairly. Most groups will aim to get everybody a 2 piece before anybody get a 4 piece to be fair. Make sure completions of sets factor into the decision. (a person getting their second piece is stronger than another getting their 3rd, etc)

A very critical thing is to make sure that the loot council is open with everyone about their decisions- ideally discussing each piece in voice chat for all to hear. If the group understands your reasons there is far less likely to be loot drama. Over time the council will be less and less needed because the people that compete for the same loot will start to decide among themselves who should get a piece and they will just tell the loot master who to give it to. Do not force or ask for them to do this- let it happen naturally. When you start hearing things like 'That's a huge upgrade for you, just take it' or '(person 1) Whoa, that's BiS for me, can I take it? (person 2) Yeah, go for it' you will know you're on the right track. Hope this helps.

[Deleted]

submit to the loot master their best in slot list.

I believe that step is inapplicable or partly inapplicable or it should be inapplicable in certain classes at least.

For instance, Arcane Mage right now doesn't care that much if it gets mastery or if it gets haste, there are some minor advantages either way depended on case, but it's not a big deal either way. Not only that, but with the exception of versatility it doesn't even lose that much if it gets crit or even multistrike, so it's not a big deal to just go for higher ilevel in most cases. Add to that the warforged and the gem and it becomes crystal clear, in that example a "BiS list" would not make sense for that class for most items (the exceptions are mainly the trinkets and the tier bonus).

Unfortunately, we have a lot of misinformation from low quality sites that fish for clicks by promising "BiS lists", but many theorycrafters for some classes/specs at least, conclude lately "sim it and see what is best at the time", for some items at least (barring those exceptions about trinkets and tier bonuses of course).