Dave Kosak: "Azeroth will never wake up."

[Deleted]

It must have changed greatly in the last two years (counting from last time I visited official story forum) then. Last time I checked, majority of posters there were still adamant that the OGs were a match for the Titans regardless of what were posted and people claiming their theories to be canon in majority of the discussion threads.
(well, so was MMO-C, but still...)

Heck, I just checked and I saw some guys claiming the Pantheon is 100% dead, or the OGs can corrupt and make Sargeras a minion of the void lords like it was a fact. Nothing changed much, then. There are people who are reasonable, there are those who don't, sadly the later are usually the majority. There are idiots everywhere =p

I miss the OGs power level threads, always had a good laugh with them.

[Madruga]

In which Dave Kosak destroys the far-reaching consequences of the ideas that were JUST introduced in Chronicle Volume 1:



And with a dose of absolute cringey 4th grade writing to boot.

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment..._story/d1asbba

Just fuck it man. This lore is ruined beyond repair.

Edit: Four minutes ago, Kosak then commented this:



https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment..._story/d1ay8en

This is the man responsible for the lore of this game. This is the man. I don't even know what's going on anymore with the lore writers.

OH. MY. GOD.

After getting totally high in this last book, making Sargeras so powerful he just AOE'd the entire pantheon in a single shot, making Old Gods as fleas next to the Titans, and saying Azeroth is actually a dormant Titan that is the last hope of the Universe.... They come wit this?? "Heroes are the ubber final response to everything, don't count on Azeroth"??

This is a whole new level of bad writing. What the actual fuck?? At this point, it would be best if the game didn't have a lore anymore, just bring new raids and bosses to kill just because!

[Aucald]

OH. MY. GOD.

After getting totally high in this last book, making Sargeras so powerful he just AOE'd the entire pantheon in a single shot, making Old Gods as fleas next to the Titans, and saying Azeroth is actually a dormant Titan that is the last hope of the Universe.... They come wit this?? "Heroes are the ubber final response to everything, don't count on Azeroth"??

This is a whole new level of bad writing. What the actual fuck?? At this point, it would be best if the game didn't have a lore anymore, just bring new raids and bosses to kill just because!

I don't really understand this sentiment? Pulling away from arguing the narrative for a moment, WoW is a video-game that is driven almost entirely by player interaction with the game's world - why exactly wouldn't the players be the "uber final response to everything?" The game is about us and our place within the story - it's not about the Titans, or the Legion, or the Old Gods. All of those elements are plot devices to support us or for us to surmount, and it's not a story designed to ultimately end with our loss or otherwise our removal from the story itself. You seem to put the nascent Titan world we inhabit ahead of *anything* else, including what the game is itself about (e.g. the players), and I don't think that could even work unless we somehow end up collectively playing as the Titan Azeroth.

[Qualia]

Question: Let's pretend Azeroth really is dead and isn't waking up (again, regardless of what was said). What is stopping Blizzard from creating lore regarding another Titan from another planet or Pantheon from another part of the Dark Beyond that may/may not have technology which can resurrect the titan Azeroth? Or some shit.
They don't say that all Titans in the universe are dead, just that the original Pantheon was killed, and that a small amount of their essence lived on in the Keepers (that haven't been killed off)

Nothing. Technically, that's always a possibility. The Pantheon left Azeroth (partly) because they were eager to search for more world-souls, after all.

That might be how we are going to face off a Dark Titan later (if Blizzard want us to) - *maybe* while Sargeras and the Legion was busy with us, some OGs on another planet with a world-soul (weaker than Azeroth) in other side of the Universe finally succeeded in corrupting it and turned it into a Dark / Warped Titan (which would still be weaker than a Dark version of Azeroth so this new dark titan won't be the strongest threat ever). Now it's heading towards us while devouring everything on its way, and it's going to reach us by the time we finish all our business with N'Zoth.

OH. MY. GOD.

After getting totally high in this last book, making Sargeras so powerful he just AOE'd the entire pantheon in a single shot, making Old Gods as fleas next to the Titans, and saying Azeroth is actually a dormant Titan that is the last hope of the Universe.... They come wit this?? "Heroes are the ubber final response to everything, don't count on Azeroth"??

This is a whole new level of bad writing. What the actual fuck?? At this point, it would be best if the game didn't have a lore anymore, just bring new raids and bosses to kill just because!

Is it really that bad? Main character(s) being the solution for everything is a quite common theme from my experience.

[ls-]

I think blizz should prohibit their employees to post this kind of things w/o pre-moderation.

[Tatzi]

I can't say I'm surprised.

Azeroth's been bombarded with Fel/Void energies basically since even before its discovery. I never really expected Azeroth to awaken in the game's lifespan. However; the idea that the Well of Eternity and the HUGE amount of the element of Spirit that was around; I can't say I don't dislike the idea that the mortals have become, basically, superhuman, in comparison to others in creation. After all, we are the ONLY known creatures in the entire Warcraft universe who have ever stood against the Legion, the Old Gods and every other threat.

I personally, like the new lore. There are some problems littered throughout, but for the most part it clarified a lot of things and got rid of a lot of stupid headcanon I'd read.

[Raiju]

Pretty much this. There is a huge chance that might not awake at all, but no where in the Chronicle it is stated that it will never wake up, quite the opposite.

To both of you - yes in the first sentence of the pantheon it very clearly states that it's unknown how Aman'thul woke up. This runs completely contradictory to any assumption that they can wake up naturally (as the implication in that it says 'noone knows how' wouldn't be there if it were assumed natural)

Aman'thul is not only outlier, it explicitly points him out as an outlier. You are all assuming titans CAN wake naturally when it goes to pains to point out the opposite. It's more reasonable to assume some other force woke up Aman'thul.

Also I like how everyones avoiding the fact we are using its blood as a power source with a 30 ft pole.

[Sentynel]

Oh god, because #femaleplanetslivesmatter right? Its a fucking planet in a game, who cares if it has a gender.

Imagine Sargeras and female-Azeroth having some fun times on a cosmic level.

[Deleted]

To both of you - yes in the first sentence of the pantheon it very clearly states that it's unknown how Aman'thul woke up. This runs completely contradictory to any assumption that they can wake up naturally (as the implication in that it says 'noone knows how' wouldn't be there if it were assumed natural)

Aman'thul is not only outlier, it explicitly points him out as an outlier. You are all assuming titans CAN wake naturally when it goes to pains to point out the opposite. It's more reasonable to assume some other force woke up Aman'thul.

Also I like how everyones avoiding the fact we are using its blood as a power source with a 30 ft pole.

"In time, he discovered other nascent world-souls. Aman'thul lovingly nurtured these newfound kin and roused them from slumber. Those who awakened devoted themselves to his noble search" p. 19

"With that, the Pantheon bade the titan-forged farewell and dissapeared into the stars. The titans had done everything possible to heal Azeroth and assure the world-soul's maturation. All that remained now was to wait - and hope that the world-soul would one day awaken." p. 43

"Aman'Thul called out to Sargeras, pleading with him to abandon his mad Burning Crusade. He told Sargeras of Azeroth, a fledgling world-soul with more potential than any of the Pantheon had ever seen, a being strong enough to defeat the void lords in due time. Sargeras listened carefully, but was unmoved." p. 50

As perks of my historian profession, I don't assume on these things, I always use the data at hand.

The fact that no one knows how Aman'thul woke up in the first doesn't contradict the point that another world-soul can go through the same process. But even so, it's a mute point, because Azeroth was "lovingly nurtured" by the Pantheon and keeps being nurtured by the Keepers, Aspects and mortals specifically to wake up in the future.

If the world-souls can't awake by themselves, why did the Pantheon left in the first place?

[Qualia]

To both of you - yes in the first sentence of the pantheon it very clearly states that it's unknown how Aman'thul woke up. This runs completely contradictory to any assumption that they can wake up naturally (as the implication in that it says 'noone knows how' wouldn't be there if it were assumed natural)

Aman'thul is not only outlier, it explicitly points him out as an outlier. You are all assuming titans CAN wake naturally when it goes to pains to point out the opposite. It's more reasonable to assume some other force woke up Aman'thul.

Also I like how everyones avoiding the fact we are using its blood as a power source with a 30 ft pole.

No, it isn't a contradiction. That is just your own interpretation, assumption or theory and unless it was stated directly in the Chronicle or confirmed by a blue poster later, it'd remain a theory. We don't know why Aman'thul wake up doesn't necessarily mean he didn't just wake up naturally - it just means that, well, it happened too long ago that no one knows how and when that happened. And obviously Aman'thul would be an outlier since he has been helping every other world soul in the Pantheon - however, that doesn't mean those world-soul couldn't wake up by themselves.

The words "no one knows how" are used frequently, but it doesn't always mean there must be some external interference in it. For example, no one knows exactly how the Big Bang happened (although there are plenty of theories), but that doesn't mean there is some kind of God who was behind it, or that it didn't just happen naturally.
(Be noted that I'm NOT ruling out the case of external influence being involved in Aman'thul's awakening, just that there isn't anything stated as such, so it remains a theory like everything else)

Not sure the fact that we have been using Azeroth's blood have anything to do with what I was talking about. To make it clear (again) - I'm NOT against the idea that Azeroth would never wake up. In fact, you can traced my post back to see I said the same thing few weeks ago - how Azeroth will remains a planet, and it'd be us who will be empowered by it to fight Sargeras in a future expansion - that isn't exactly what Kosak said, but the gist of it is similar. I have plenty of theories of why Azeroth wouldn't wake up myself, don't worry. What I was saying, however, is that a world soul can't wake up naturally - which was what you said - isn't fact. No line in the Chronicle stated that. I want to clearly separate fact and theory (even if I / you believe the theory to be 99% true) in case of headcanons or people QQing about Blizard changing things (according to their theories) later. Feel free to quote it if I missed that somehow - a line that stated a world soul can't wake up by itself, not something that led you to believe so because in the later case, it'd be just a theory and not fact.

[Aucald]

There seems to be two distinct debates happening in this thread, with all four sides managing to somehow talk past one another without reconciling which they're actually talking about. One is about whether, internal to the narrative of the Warcraft universe, the nascent world-soul of Azeroth will ever emerge or become a true Titan. The other, external to the narrative, is whether or not this will happen in the game and what it would mean for the player and non-player characters.

Kosak has already backtracked on the first, leaving it open to interpretation or personal belief. Personally I think his retraction is more due to the fact that Blizzard wants to keep their options open - it's possible Azeroth could awaken as a Titan one day, and go on to fight either for or against the Void Lords and the chaos they represent (depending on whether or not it was successfully corrupted by them while developing). This makes perfect sense to me, and it's seldom a good move to decisively close a given door that could lead to further story and/or game material.

As for the second, I would personally doubt it because a Titan Azeroth would essentially spell the end of the World of Wacraft (e.g. the world we fight on and for in the course of the game's story). A Titan Azeroth would change the stakes of WoW in an extreme way, and would serve more as the basis for an entirely new story for an entirely new game such as the Universe of Warcraft or the Cosmos of Warcraft. Perhaps one day we will all play as a Titans awakening from the far-flung reaches of the universe (or multiverse), but if we do it won't be the World of Warcraft anymore.

[Sabever]

It's still a fantasy game. Being a fantasy game doesn't mean you can't have any kind of technology. Plenty of fantasy fiction have both magic and technology, some even fuse them together for magiteks - it's called Science Fantasy. Even back in WC2, you had gyrocopters, ships and submarines - yet I don't remember any complaints about them "took the fantasy feel away from the game". I don't see how the other points you complained about took away the fantasy feel - everyone riding dragons? dead people being revived? Aren't those pretty popular in fantasy fictions? Which lore characters that were "pretty much not killable" that we killed? (for god sake, I hope you aren't saying the OGs).

All in all, I understand you aren't happy with the game and that's your opinion. However, I believe you are just burned out instead of the lore growing any worse since Vanilla. Generally, WoW Lore - all the way back since WC2 until now, were on a similar level - nothing extremely grand, nothing too crappy.

But hack in the first 3 warcrafts there was virtually no engineering anything remotely like gnomish and goblin engineering. There were no motorcycles or robots. Now they are ubiquitous. It is taking away from the feel.

[A dot Ham]

He is in the credits..

Ew Christie Golden... she is awful. I've seen better writing from Junior High kids.

[Gamevizier]

...and this is the guy who is in charge of the game's lore.

...let's take a moment and sink this in : the highest person responsible for the writing and the lore of Warcraft's story, either doesn't know how to word his posts properly so he comes off as someone who is retconning the story that he and his team is responsible of writing and creating, or is completely out of the loop of what the lore department creates and puts into the franchise as lore.

...and I don't know which one is worse.

[wariofan1]

I'm not sure I'd like Azeroth to wake up and wreck all evil, I'm not too hot on Warcraft turning into some kind of cosmic battle between what's essentially gods, that's always the most boring solution. Even though Diablo III made me hate the player(s) getting overglorified I'd probably still prefer the denizens of Azeroth being the ones to defend Azeroth from the Void Lords, Azeroth awakening and then proceeding to destroy them would neither be satisfactory or creative storytelling.

[Qualia]

...and this is the guy who is writing the game's lore.

...let's take a moment and sink this in : the highest person responsible for the writing and the lore of Warcraft's story, either doesn't know how to word his posts properly so he comes off as someone who is retconning the story that he and his team is responsible of writing and creating, or is completely out of the loop of what the lore department creates and puts into the franchise as lore.

...and I don't know which one is worse.

While Kosak definitely was careless, your criticism of him isn't entirely correct. Even if he didn't backtrack and his post is still considered canon, it still wouldn't be a retcon but more of a lore expansion. It would be a new piece of lore, but it doesn't change anything that we already knew, neither does it have any (unexplainable) conflicts with current lore.

His wording being cheesy is one thing, but to be fair, he is a lead quest designer, not an author. They (the Blizzard employee who took care of lore) probably focus more on the settings of the lore instead of how to present it in an awesome manner. That's why they hire outside writers to write their WC franchise novels.

His timing of that post was bad, though, and he probably didn't think carefully of all implications it brought, so there is that. But that has nothing to do with how well he and his team work.

[Jokubas]

I wonder if this is actually based on something from the next Chronicle and he forgot that volume one didn't go this far. It's hard to say it's just an interpretation, when the Chronicle doesn't even so much as hint about something like this (on the contrary, it explicitly specifies the curse of flesh as inadvertently responsible for heroism, at least in what it infected).

I could totally see this as being a major plot point of something that happened during the Warcraft RTSs (which volume one stopped just before). Perhaps it was the true cost of the end of Warcraft III (giving new context to Medivh's speech), or Illidan's attempts to use the Eye of Sargeras to destroy the Frozen Throne (Warcraft III will almost certainly be re-explained in the next Chronicle volume, seeing as how the old explanation of Archimonde coming to Azeroth for the arcane magic in the World Tree has nothing to do with the Legion's motives anymore). That would also be a logical lead-in to the rise of the player characters in the following game.

Of course, it still leaves the story with two huge problems: neither the Old Gods or the Legion have a reason to care about Azeroth anymore.

Edit: Although, now that I think about it, this actually could be an important setup for the future. The Old Gods would almost certainly know that Azeroth can no longer be awoken, being so rooted in, but the Legion doesn't have such an easy way to know (in general, this is one of the things that makes Sargeras evil; he's so busy trying to destroy Azeroth so it can't be a dark titan, that he hasn't noticed it's been winning the fight the whole time and could be his greatest ally).

At this point, the Old Gods might actually be betting on us (and coincidentally in the gameplay, shadow priests are even being lent their power this expansion to fight the Legion). Think about it, if we're the inheritors of Azeroth's power, and we can manage to bring down Sargeras, then we're just as good as any dark titan, and the Void might as well try to corrupt us instead. Alternatively, the fact that the Old Gods have tried and failed to corrupt us before, might make the Void desperately strike out in fear of us if we prove capable of taking down a titan (and thus just as dangerous to them as a titan Azeroth).

[Qualia]

Of course, it still leaves the story with two huge problems: neither the Old Gods or the Legion have a reason to care about Azeroth anymore.

Why wouldn't they?

Assuming that post was canon, there would still be plenty of reasons for them to care about Azeroth. Firstly, that was revealed by Kosak outside of the game, so there is a very good chance that none of characters in the game know about it yet, including the OGs, the Keepers, Sargeras and the Void Lords, you name it. Secondly, even if it would never wake up, nothing stated that it couldn't be corrupted and transformed into Dark Titan, then wrecking havoc while in its nightmare. Lastly, Sargeras isn't only trying to destroy planets with world-souls. He is destroying everything, world-soul or not. Even if we are harmless to the universe, as long as we are there, we can still be corrupted - which means, to Sargeras, we need to be destroyed. At best we'd just not be his prioritize target anymore - one would expect them to be extremely pissed off at us now, however, so maybe that wouldn't change anything.

[Enthralled]

...and this is the guy who is in charge of the game's lore.

He's not the guy in charge of the lore, actually. He's the quest/writing guy. While there is some overlap, it's not unreasonable to imagine that he doesn't walk around with every tidbit of trivia in his brain at all time.

[Gamevizier]

He's not the guy in charge of the lore, actually. He's the quest/writing guy. While there is some overlap, it's not unreasonable to imagine that he doesn't walk around with every tidbit of trivia in his brain at all time.

he is the lead narrative designer. he oversees the overall direction and the narrative of the lore. so no, he is not just the "quest/writing" guy.