[Pre-Beta] Havoc Discussion

[wordup]

Bloodlet seems like it will now NEVER be taken being moved alongside Nemeis and with Throw Glaive still not scaling from anything.

Hard to judge now that Nemesis got nerfed by 50%.

[neck deep]

Is the new BD artifact talent actually replacing the Throw Glaive one? If so I guess its down to 3 targets only.

yes. throw glaive is 3 targets now regardless of anything else. bloodlet will be fantastic if we ever have a fight like iron maidens again. perma 3 target cleave the dream.

Nemesis seems like it would be a bit more situational that though wouldn't it? Say it's used on a fight like Assault, I put it on a humanoid, kill it, now that's 10% increased damage on ALL humanoids...or am I misinterpreting its functionality?

no, that's how it works. when you kill a target with nemesis on them you get a buffed called "nemesis: (monster type)" that stays on for the remaining duration of the nemesis that was left on the target. it'd be pretty okay for hellfire assault, or something with constant waves of adds that are all the same monster type, but it's maximum uptime was halved no matter how you use it.

[Vanyali]

Nemesis seems like it would be a bit more situational that though wouldn't it? Say it's used on a fight like Assault, I put it on a humanoid, kill it, now that's 10% increased damage on ALL humanoids...or am I misinterpreting its functionality?

Yes, but it still has an uptime of 50%, for the most part. Sure, if you had it on something for 59s and THEN killed it.. okay. 100%. But that's harder to do on add fights. A lot more consistent to have throw glaive for multi-targets as it doesn't require killing the target in a very specific manner.

[wordup]

Yes, but it still has an uptime of 50%, for the most part. Sure, if you had it on something for 59s and THEN killed it.. okay. 100%. But that's harder to do on add fights. A lot more consistent to have throw glaive for multi-targets as it doesn't require killing the target in a very specific manner.

You're still misinterpreting it I think. If you put it on a Humanoid and kill it 1sec after, you get 59 seconds of nemesis, then 1 minute of the cooldown remaining, so still a 50% uptime. If you have it on for 59 sec, and kill it, you get 1 sec of nemesis, 1 minute cooldown still left again.

[ChakanDH]

Gah, they need to let us level to 110 already, now that demonic is on the last tier its fucking with my rotation!!!

Positive not though, now that bloodlet isnt on the same tier as first blood I can take it again and actually have a use for throw glaive!! Huzzah!!!

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

Gah, they need to let us level to 110 already, now that demonic is on the last tier its fucking with my rotation!!!

Positive not though, now that bloodlet isnt on the same tier as first blood I can take it again and actually have a use for throw glaive!! Huzzah!!!

Oh snap! Huzzah INDEED! /high-five

[Factor]

Yes, but it still has an uptime of 50%, for the most part. Sure, if you had it on something for 59s and THEN killed it.. okay. 100%. But that's harder to do on add fights. A lot more consistent to have throw glaive for multi-targets as it doesn't require killing the target in a very specific manner.

True that. I admit my initial thought of bloodlet never being taken seems a little "sky is falling".

Sidenote. Is that 'Darkness' ability brand new? Looks like a little bit of raid utility if its for both specs (please please please be the case)

Edit:

You're still misinterpreting it I think. If you put it on a Humanoid and kill it 1sec after, you get 59 seconds of nemesis, then 1 minute of the cooldown remaining, so still a 50% uptime. If you have it on for 59 sec, and kill it, you get 1 sec of nemesis, 1 minute cooldown still left again.

No, I totally got that part, but was thinking that a 10% damage buff for a minute on unlimited (theoretical) mobs stacked with some of those AOE abilities would scale pretty well. Wasn't the time concern, was the usability.

[Vanyali]

You're still misinterpreting it I think. If you put it on a Humanoid and kill it 1sec after, you get 59 seconds of nemesis, then 1 minute of the cooldown remaining, so still a 50% uptime. If you have it on for 59 sec, and kill it, you get 1 sec of nemesis, 1 minute cooldown still left again.

Is it not working as it did prior? Prior to it, no matter how much time was left you'd get 2min buff. I only glanced over the changes though, so you very well could be right.

[Vekysus]

is that a new DH mythic set ? http://wow.zamimg.com/images/wow/ico...mythichelm.jpg

[ChakanDH]

And the fact they have sped up the animation of VR, actually makes is EASIER to do the animation cancel....honestly, I'm in DH heaven, if they left them like this I would be soooooo happy.

[neck deep]

Is it not working as it did prior? Prior to it, no matter how much time was left you'd get 2min buff. I only glanced over the changes though, so you very well could be right.

it's tooltip now reads that you receive a buff for the remaining duration. i've not tested this but in this scenario we'll assume that it means for the remaining duration of the debuff on the target you killed, and run with that. it mangles the talent from when killing a target gave 2 minutes of buff no matter how long the remaining debuff duration into something that's much more reasonable for a single talent point, now that it's no longer being balanced against demonic.
@Factor i have no skill named darkness in my spell book as either spec, and neither talent tree has it either. from what i can tell. havoc definitely doesn't but my vengeance tree seems a bit fucked so i can't be positive. i can't find the spell anywhere.

[Vanyali]

it's tooltip now reads that you receive a buff for the remaining duration. i've not tested this but in this scenario we'll assume that it means for the remaining duration of the debuff on the target you killed, and run with that. it mangles the talent from when killing a target gave 2 minutes of buff no matter how long the remaining debuff duration into something that's much more reasonable for a single talent point, now that it's no longer being balanced against demonic.
@Factor i have no skill named darkness in my spell book as either spec, and neither talent tree has it either. from what i can tell. havoc definitely doesn't but my vengeance tree seems a bit fucked so i can't be positive. i can't find the spell anywhere.

Oh well that's poopy. But balances it so you can't fuck around with it at all, so I like.

Was having to run in and out of my room doing other stuff to quickly read notes >_<

[Factor]

@Factor i have no skill named darkness in my spell book as either spec, and neither talent tree has it either. from what i can tell. havoc definitely doesn't but my vengeance tree seems a bit fucked so i can't be positive. i can't find the spell anywhere.

The wowhead version of the data mine shows the spell requiring a Demon Hunter. So hopefully its somewhere eventually. Pretty decent raid CD if it appears in its current form.

[neck deep]

The wowhead version of the data mine shows the spell requiring a Demon Hunter. So hopefully its somewhere eventually. Pretty decent raid CD if it appears in its current form.

yeah i think it's something we sorely need as a leather dps melee with less personal cooldowns than the other two(3 if you count feral? lol?)

it kinda screams vengeance pvp talent to me though, which i wouldn't be surprised if that ends up being the case. melee dps getting tank cooldowns is giving me vigilance flashbacks and wod isn't even over yet.

[Keltas]

I enjoy all the changes except making throw glaive 3 targets.
But I can deal with that if it means we get to keep these changes for the most part.

I'm surprised they didn't touch mastery for either DH spec though, they both hate the stat. Anyone on alpha able to tell if they maybe changed the scaling?

Edit: Can someone check Death Sweeps cost/damage? Also if it's affected by first blood still? Wowhead lists it still at 50 fury and the old damage value.

[TheLimonTree]

The wowhead version of the data mine shows the spell requiring a Demon Hunter. So hopefully its somewhere eventually. Pretty decent raid CD if it appears in its current form.

I saw that and immediately remembered the darkness calls jokes from WC3

[Warstar]

Death Sweep is still 50 fury but reduced by 20 with First Blood.

Demon Blades feels poopy now without Prepared.

Change to Feast on the Souls is actually kinda brutal. Previously could effectively spam Blade Dance once you started killing a group of mobs but no longer. Even just going around soloing mobs it feels much weaker since previously with First Blood you could go to a mob, BD > CS > BD basically and kill it but now it's locked at it's CD and only reduced by haste.

I think the nerf to Nemesis was to bring it in line with Momentum. Now that actually promotes a better play style more dps and kind of like a Colossus Smash type game play where you want to fit as much as you can into that window of damage. I will say that Momentum First Blood does a lot of damage. VR > EB > BD = dead mob.

Fel Barrage is interesting. It does a channel no matter what and always hits 5 times. But! It's damage is increased by stacks. You can move while channeling. It is a channel so functions like EB. Can't attack or anything during it's channel. Buuuuuuut with the reversion of Annihilation Fel Barrage still sucks compared to Demonic. I think that was a bad move to put that there and they should have just left Demon Reborn there. Fel Barrage still doesn't regen with abilities used so will have to see what it's like what it does but as of now it just doesn't hit that hard. With the pvp gear it hits total for 398475 damage total. Demonic feels like a way stronger talent especially with the reduction in fury cost to Death Sweep with FB. Being able to have Momentum AND Demonic will be super duper exciting. Fel Barrage seems like it would be worth it if it reset on every ability used or something close to that but other wise Demonic is currently way way way stronger.... especially currently with it not resetting at all.

[Baelroc]

Still no changes to FotI and RotI still broken?

Interesting changes. Will be anxious to see how they play out. Really not liking Demonic being on the 110 row, however momentum and Demonic do have a nice synergy, just wish they would have moved it or momentum somewhere else. I really don't like having to choose between Demonic and Chaos Blades (and Fel Barrage if they ever get that working correctly).

[bloodkraven]

Still no changes to FotI and RotI still broken?

Interesting changes. Will be anxious to see how they play out. Really not liking Demonic being on the 110 row, however momentum and Demonic do have a nice synergy, just wish they would have moved it or momentum somewhere else. I really don't like having to choose between Demonic and Chaos Blades (and Fel Barrage if they ever get that working correctly).

RotI seems to be working right now as it grants you a buff when you have FotI active. I really do hope they rework both of these traits as they just seem to fall flat compared to what other specs get. I mean AoE damage is nice and all but when its active it just feels really meh.

[Mefistophelis]

I am happy and super excited that they finally decided to give Blade Dance a second look and what possibly seems like an identity.
Also happy that Demonic is max level talent. Its power was significant and the change was logical. Demon Blades woooo free fury without losing Demon Bite.
They looked into Havoc and took some serious decisions. The only thing I think could be avoided was removing the extra targets for Throw Glaive trait. That was actually a nice trait for aoe and bloodlet.