Celestalon: "streaming interferes with the feedback process"

[xanzul]

Good point, actually on the echo chamber thing. Also if it is hard deadlines this a very subtle / questionable way to counter any "you didn't listen to our feedback" for stuff they just ignore this time around, just blame it on the streamers. Being in the WOD beta, there was so much stuff that just got flat out ignored and not reconized by blizzard during the beta and they never even addressed the fact that they ignored it. This time if they do that with some stuff they can spin it as it was ignored because it was due to streamers giving poor feedback or something like that.

Blizzard not agreeing with feedback doesn't mean they didn't listen to it and it certainly doesn't mean they were wrong. Some feedback during Wod beta was beared out during live but lets not forget about all the big huge hot button issues that were raised during beta turned out to be nothing. Perspective is a thing. Get some.

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I thought this Alpha has been invaluable in regards to feedback and how much they've been focusing on design decisions. While there's still much work to be done, it's easily the most work I've seen in quite some time when it comes to listening and applying tweaks based on information they are given because of Streamers and their viewers. It's not all great (Ret T75,90,100 say hi) but they're making tons of changes with each new build and that's something we should all be grateful for.

Imagine if we didn't have alpha tests and we went in to beta without their feedback. That would be one huge beta and a headache for everyone because there's no third buffer to work things out before hitting live until content patches and bandaids are applied.

Er...it doesn't matter whether it is an alpha test or beta test. It is all semantics and despite what all the ignorant armchair IT developers with zero experience in IT claim, alpha and beta are absolutely vague terms meaning different things to different developers. In fact lets forget about alpha and beta. If Blizzard felt a change was needed after an expansion went live, they would do it and have done it. It doesn't matter what phase of development something is in, if the feedback is compelling the devs will make changes. This is a large part of why people keep trying to explain nothing is final in any phase in development only to be trolled endlessly over it when they are actually on your side.

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It was supposed to be in development before that, which is why WoD was so bad. All their eggs were in the Legion basket and the fact that they've done so little with it makes me think these guys are doing their development planning from a room full of hammocks.

Except no..this isn't remotely true. Wod and Legion were developed in tandem. The issue was actually in fact not about putting all the eggs in one basket but dividing the eggs between two baskets. Come on folks I have been called a fanboy here for years but even I have said repeatedly Blizzard dropped the ball with Wod. Now we know why. Let's not rewrite history when what actually happened is far more beneficial to us as Wow players than trumping up some bullshit thing that never happened.

[ls-]

Celestalon is just butthurt that their design is incompatible with what people want in an mmo.

TBH, I dun think we, players, know what we really want from games including MMOs, we always want this, this and that, yet we dun care that these things dun really work together T_T

Are we Xhul'horac IRL? We want everything and nothing, we think that we know everything, yet we know nothing

[xanzul]

They probably give priority to streamers because they want to keep people interested in WoW. I'm surprised they'd even be so open about Alpha considering the hatestorm that arose from announcing stuff too early that got removed. They probably just want to make the drought between the release Hellfire Citadel until Legion seem less extensive.

What? If I'm bored of a game no streamer will keep me interested. I will simply not play and I will simply not watch streams about said game. Again it needs to be pointed out Wow is a video game not a life style or a civil rights movement. It is a time waster nothing more nothing less.

[ls-]

I always wondered what the point of a beta truly is these days. Blizzard should be able to distignuish between the average player providing beta feedback (and thus getting a beta invite) and streamers getting invites purely for marketing purposes. Do you need to start hyping up the expansion or new game half a year before release by giving them shitty alpha access when nothing is finished? I don't think so. I think it's entirely sufficient to give them keys one or two weeks before release (basically, when beta is ending).

Well, IIRC, they said, that streamers were a small fraction of all people, who actually got alpha invites. Problem is that they, streamers, are an extremely vocal minority.

[xanzul]

Sure, but it's the same thing rights-wise. Obviously the PR fallout would suck. Doing so isn't 'censorship' no matter how many people misuse that word.

There would be no "PR fallout" due to streamers being kicked from an alpha. If it was done as "PR" decision wouldn't that imply the fallout from NOT doing it would be worse than doing it? You people use these buzzwords but I don't think you actually have the intellect to understand what they mean.

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Perhaps Blizzard will stop giving streamers beta keys first, then. It won't really matter, though, because before Blizzard changed their policies for handing out beta invites, streamers usually got beta keys from generous viewers who didn't want it. Either way, it seems like it's hard to keep streamers from having access to the Beta and the only way they can solve this problem is to just not let people stream beta. Which may have even more harmful effects.

For what it's worth, I don't watch streams for beta. I get tired of streamers spending two hours looking at every little thing for their viewers. Every time they play a new class they have to hover over each talent for a minute so that the viewers can read it, and they have to try out every single ability so the viewers can see it. Not engaging to watch at all, and it's especially annoying to sit through all of that and then once they finally start playing, new people come into the channel "SHOW US NEW TALENTS!!" so they start all over again.

Oh enough already. There is a huge cross section of players posting on the alpha forums as evident from the accounts they are posting from. Pvpers, raiders, hardcore, softcore, casual or whatever.

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It's Blizzard's fault purely because it's a problem for them of their own making.

Streamers are a known quantity. Blizzard should/would have known going in that a lot of streamers build and keep their audience through hype and energetic reactions. If Blizzard want more balanced and focused feedback from the community then maybe they need to ask different people for that feedback.

If Blizzard blackballed streamers from alphas and betas, they would simply buy accounts that have access. Make no mistake about it, if Blizzard didn't bring streamers into their alphas that doesn't mean you would instantly get an invite.

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Do not give keys to streamers if you want anonymous and honest feedback. If you make your alpha a PR tool, you have to deal with the hyperboles and other consequences.

If Blizzard wanted the Legion alpha to be a PR tool everyone would have access to it. No ifs ands or buts about it. Or do you simply not understand what PR is and how it works?

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They got exactly what they asked for, but it wasn't what they thought it would be. Instead of getting people who were likely to offer feedback, they wanted the free publicity. There's one problem, most people who run streams aren't there to improve the game, they are there to sell themselves to the public. They not only have completely different motivations, those motivations are often in competition to one another. Sure, it's great to have some random bimbo with her tits hanging out playing your game, but don't expect her to help you work out the bugs to your game.

Much like all the shitposters here who are shills for Curse and seem to exist simply to raise hell whenever Blizzard does anything to keep the site relevant.

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Maybe they should make a good expansion that people will like so streamers aren't starting movements against entire design decisions(pruning).

But nah, it's just viewers trying to make more money! THE GAME IS PERFECT!

Blizzard has made changes due not only to streamer feedback but feedback from people watching those streams. Or are you only interested in shitposting? Oh right...I forgot I'm on mmo-champion.

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Then don't give keys to the streamers, Celestalon. Give them all to regular players, all up and down the spectrum of casual to hardcore.

When herp met derp

And yet again...they do. Proof? The actual fucking alpha forums. I'm sorry but if Blizzard never invited another streamer to a Wow expansion alpha/beta again it still doesn't mean they will lick your ass.

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I agree with him. He's likely right.

But streamers give them free PR so... they got to choose one or the other.

Implying Blizzard doesn't pay for PR. Not surprising coming from a mod who allows shitposting and general destruction of this forum community. If Blizzard was interested in pushing a certain narrative they wouldn't hesitate to spend money on it as would any company.

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Depends on the streamer, really. Take HeelsvsBabyface - he doesnt even play the game anymore, except to grind mounts, and I think he said he's not going to play Legion, but he's using his alpha key to tear Blizzard down on anything negative. That's one streamer who's alpha keys is probably wasted on.

I just wonder about this dev team sometimes. Combined, they have decades of experience...or should have decades of experience, but they keep acting like they know nothing about their own game, the genre, the community, and how people act. OF COURSE a streamer has an agenda - it's called money. They get paid to attract viewers. Negative "hyperbolic" comments gets more viewers than gushing fanboy service. They should know that. The streamers who get the keys should be handpicked, not just like being thrown into the crowd from a t-shirt gun.

These devs struggle with things other companies have no problems with. It's very odd at times.

I assure you the dev team doesn't give a flying fuck about streamers when it comes to analyzing feedback. Celestalon made a specific comment about a certain kind of feedback but didn't say it was all of the feedback in totality.

Also let's keep in mind Blizzard has access to a large amount of metrics to determine what people are doing and when they do it and sometimes why they do it.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

The hundreds of people posting in the alpha forums are all streamers? Care to back that up with streamer links to each unique Wow account posting there? No? Then shut the fuck up.

Not every person in the alpha is a streamer, but every streamer/youtuber with a decent following is in the alpha. That's a fact, there's no need to get upset about it.

[Deleted]

It's fine, Celestalon is just a vocal minority.

[xanzul]

Cel is absolutely right about the bandwagon effect. It's their own fault though for choosing publicity over accuracy.

Because the random forum nobodies here are so accurate. Give me a fucking break. There is a certain regular forum troll here who actually said and defended the notion that a company having two profitable products is a negative. Accuracy really? More like complete and total ignorance.

[Mormolyce]

Frankly, a lot of popular streamers are drama queens or quaffers if Hatorade.

[Crimewave]

Seems we're running out of scrapegoats. Raiders, youtubers, streamers. Who is gonna be next?

[Bullettime]

Well, IIRC, they said, that streamers were a small fraction of all people, who actually got alpha invites. Problem is that they, streamers, are an extremely vocal minority.

More importantly, not just a vocal minority but an influential minority. That's the problem right now where you have some streamers "testing" things, calling it shit or whatever, and creating their own echo chamber. People who don't have access will take the impressions of a popular streamer and let it influence their own feedback, even if they've done little or zero testing themselves.

There's some feedback in there to analyze, but you have to sift through a metric ton of hyperbole and nonsensical parroting to find it.

[xanzul]

People act like this is a HUGE issue that Blizzard got trolololed on.

Giving all access to streamers will continue because the free exposure to the game, is way more valuable than feedback on a beta.

1. Not all streamers have been invited.
2. Not all people posting on the alpha forums are streamers.
3. Profitable products get money to pay for marketing.

Blizzard could do a completely locked down beta test with a NDA and only allow Wow developers access and guess what? That expansion and Wow would do just fine thank you very much. Many of you are seriously overrating the importance of "free publicity". Ultimately for Blizzard a good product and a good expansion is going to determine how much profit Wow makes and they know this and they know hyping up something that doesn't exist won't create much confidence in not only their shareholders but the people who buy the games themselves.

[Lillyth]

They shouldn't prioritize streamers for alpha, they should come into the equation in the beta.

Pretty much sums it up.

If you want genuine feedback, invite people who you know are longing to give you feedback.

But hey, what am I saying? I sincerely doubt they even check the EU Alpha forums.

[xanzul]

i don't think negativity from streamers matters very much. most players who care will buy Legion to see for themselves.

Or simply wait a week after Legion releases to do the 10 day Legion trial. This is part of what makes all the "hurr durr free publicity" such complete bullshit.

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Then they should revoke that persons access and give it to someone else. You don't even have to be public about it and give an official reason. If the streamer thinks it's because of their negative opinion then let them think that. You shouldn't bend over for someone who gets free access to your game and basically viewers for free then be an ass about it.

Just as Blizzard shouldn't bend over for those who do pay for the game.

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Streamers and hardcore raiders make horrible testers.

Based on what? Come on folks we all know the only people who can post on Legion alpha forums on the official site are those who have been invited. Show me links of "hardcore raiders" and "streamers" and I might give a fuck. Otherwise shut your trap and sit the fuck down.

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get rekt blizzard

Contrary to popular belief Blizzard is doing just fine.

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That's not the whole issue. The problem is that they will focus on an issue their fans are upset about and Blizzard's feedback on what's good and what isn't is skewed towards what an echo chamber is mad about.

It's like how if you only listened to people who played an hour into FF14 they'd think the 2.5s GCD was absolutely mindnumbingly slow because surprise they accumulated more time posting complaints than actually testing things the way they're meant to be played. (In the case of FF14, GCD skill, off-GCD skill, GCD Skill, off-GCD skill, repeat.) And if you're making your money off people watching you, then agreeing with them even if you know you're wrong is going to be your prerogative.

And yet a majority of the people in the Legion alpha providing feedback aren't streamers. There is no actual issue outside of the usual idiots parrotting nonsense they heard on a forum. Wow developers have access to other metrics and other forms of feedback. Streamer feedback can shape the narrative on forums and yes it is a problem and a valid issue to raise.

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Why the fuck do they not give keys to people with ancient accounts, shitloads of playtime, and actual ability to compare and deconstruct features based on earlier experiences with WoW?

Yes, people like me who haven't got a single fucking key for any expansions beta after 10+ years.

Nah, let's give it to some shithead acting all BRO on a stream, and then whine when it actually proves to be nothing more than an idiot receiving it and using it as a way to boost their subs and donations... pathetic.

SCII and Hearthstone alpha/beta access doesn't count.

100 million people have played and quit Wow that is why you haven't gotten a key. Plenty of people who had quit Wow nearly a decade ago have gotten keys to the Legion alpha just not specifically you. Wow isn't about you. Get over yourself.

[Pull My Finger]

Well of course Celestalon is right. But the issue is someting that naturally comes with the territory. And I'm pretty fuckin' sure that Celestalon & Blizzard KNOW THIS. It's one of those things that have pros and cons and you gotta roll with it. It's not like he's campaigning for something to be done, or crying about on Twitter or something. It's just something he pointed out in a conversation with someone. Of course, the part where he said "The biggest issue is that we can't/shouldn't/don't ignore that feedback; there's good feedback hidden under that." is being completely ignored.

It's just that people are, als always, stupid. They can read, but they can't process. Which is perfectly demonstrated in this thread.

[xanzul]

Because 10 years doesn't entitle you to a beta key. If you can give constructive and critical feedback both good and bad as well as report bugs and test content when it's there fair enough. But age does not entitle your account to a beta key.

To be fair those are not the only metrics involved given past alpha/beta tests. Blizzard can get quite a bit of feedback just from seeing what players do in game.

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sign. they foremost want the marketing effect of it. and now they have to handle with "omg our whole beta testers, for which we dont pay a cent, are not that giod beta testers".

i just say 2 things here:

- i also work in a big software development company. unlike you blizzard, we dont let 90% of our testing be done by pay-free public users. we pay for good beta testing. maybe you could try that...

- and if you even go that route and let your customers test your software for you, than, maybe, i would choose that customers who are loyal, playing long term and for more than 5 years, and know the game very very well and in deep. and foremost: are private ppl without any personal interests besides a good game (instead clicks of streamers). you have all the data to find em.

maybe then you get a little bit more accurate results. but hey, its brutal complex. oh wait, no, its not.

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you have to realize that age (playing many years) is a fundamental base for your mentioned points (constructive and critical feedback).

You people do understand Blizzard isn't some new indie game development company right? They don't need free advertising. In fact they pay for it. They pay for marketing. Why? Because they have a profitable product. This is how real businesses work kids. As I have said many times before Blizzard needs to understand they do more harm to themselves than good by attempting any interaction with this playerbase.

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Seems like Celestalon is also ignoring that several popular streamers are pretty much just white knights for Blizzard, like Nobbel. And his streams still get thousands of people.

From my experience as a small time Youtuber, people don't care if I just rage about Blizzard, they care if I'm honest. And, shockingly, honesty includes both positive and negative comments.

Are you fucking joking? Are you actually whining that Blizzard isn't referring to or defending"white knights"? Go fuck yourself. This mentality right here is what is turning this site into shit. Anyone that says anything positive about Blizzard is a fanboy and Blizzard not discussing their fanboys is also somehow bad as well. Fuck you and fuck this site for allowing this nonsense.

[Aeula]

Hahaha serves them right for prioritising those assholes instead of useful players.

[xanzul]

I think Celestalon is correct when he points out that some streamers will stir shit up and create a circle jerk with their fanboys which is quite pathetic.

However, they made their bed when they gave keys to streamers during alpha testing and now they can't go back. It's a valuable lesson for next time. Streamers and youtubers should be allowed in when the beta is wrapping up and the full picture is clear. Of course streamers and youtubers are going to feed off hyperbole and drama, it's what most of them are all about to begin with...

I'm not sure why Blizzard is even calling the Legion alpha an "alpha". It is leaps and bounds beyond where Wod was when that beta started. I mean at this point it is 4/1/2016 and we are literally around what 2.5 months before 6.2 is a year old? Blizzard knows they need to get Legion out soon.

[KrazyK923]

Are you fucking joking? Are you actually whining that Blizzard isn't referring to or defending"white knights"? Go fuck yourself. This mentality right here is what is turning this site into shit. Anyone that says anything positive about Blizzard is a fanboy and Blizzard not discussing their fanboys is also somehow bad as well. Fuck you and fuck this site for allowing this nonsense.

What? lol. No. I have zero idea how you even got that from my post. Other than you seemingly want to be angry and fight about stuff.

I'm saying Celestalon arguing that all Streamers (and by extension, Youtubers) do is make the testing process harder because of "false/hyperbole pretexts" is just flatout wrong and him only focusing on the people who say negative stuff.

The idea that I'd be White Knighting Blizzard is some hilarious shit, though. Don't let that innocuous comment of "There are also streamers who say positive stuff" let me stop you from your self-masturbatory ragefest, though.

[Deleted]

Hahaha serves them right for prioritising those assholes instead of useful players.

I'm not a streamer at all - and I'm in the alpha! Don't just assume that it is streamers only in the alpha ! ...