Stingrays - government spying on our cell phones

[Kujako]

While the surveillance is frightening enough on its own. Just as scary to me is how little some people care about.

Well, it's important to remember that cellular technology relies on it not being private. For it to work, the cell phone has to tell all cell towers in the area who it is and where it is in relation to the towers. As such, I've never considered anything I do on my cell phone to be private unless it's running off a local network connection I control.

[Caolela]

havn't the NSA being doing this shit for years on landlines.
and people are surprised that they not only have the tech but are actively using it on mobile phones too ?

Yes, the NSA has been doing this. Just ask whistleblowers like William Binney, Tom Drake, or J. Kirk Wiebe.

As such, many are not surprised by these Stingray revelations, but it needs to be exposed and eliminated.

[Yvaelle]

Fine by me.

I value safety over my "digital privacy".

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Benjamin Franklin

[Damajin]

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Benjamin Franklin

This is something that both wings can and should agree on, the lack of uniformity there is where all the leverage comes from to make programs like this happen.

[Dug]

Funny how little people care about their rights being trampled on in shit like this but will go absolutely bat shit over social issues that don't affect them.

[Deckon]

What I find amusing is that anyone thinks their digital information is private int he first place. If you are connected to the internet in anyway, your info's out there. So someone's using equipment to spy on your cellphone, guess what, your provider knows everything you do, you don't freak out about that...Your ISP knows everything you do, including your passwords for online accounts, yet you dont' freak out about that.

ANYTIME information is transferred, it's not private or secure. You can talk about encryption, but any encryption can eventually be bypassed.

Privacy online has been non-existent for years, and now you are concerned with government agencies using devices/programs to do what cell phone providers and ISP's can do, and you are upset? You are more comfortable in trusting private companies with your information, than the government? Sure it's illegal, but it's also inevitable with the transfer of digital information.

Any evidence they find can't be used in a court of law. Is it wrong, yes, is there a damn thing we can do about it (and I mean in reality)? No, kill the stingray reprogram, something else will arise, kill that, and yet another. Hell I don't know why they simply just don't tap the internet back bones, and cell phone towers, and simply tap the world. Hell they probably have...

Point is this:

YOU HAVE NO PRIVACY ONLINE...PERIOD!

[enragedgorilla]

That isn't how the law works. Any moron knows that this is illegal, unconstitutional.

I already know you don't have a single useful thing to add but to derail, so take a hike.

If..the laws are being followed ....

[Tradewind]

Sorry, but all of this other shit. Apparently you're too lazy to read any of the links above, or would rather just make up shit out of thin air.

It does exactly what I said it does (ok maybe more than calls...calls, sms and unencrypted non-3G/4G/LTE mobile data). Intercepts GSM based communications normally sent to a cell tower repeater. By spoofing the device's IMSI, creating a bridge/man-in-the-middle between the user's phone and the cell tower. Intercepting over the air transmissions. It can do this because your phone is constantly transmitting that signal. It cannot read data directly from the phone, only transmitted data and even then it would require additional decryption for certain types of data outside of the typical A5/1 A5/2 encryption used by GSM to obtain the ISMI or ESN and only within the purview of your session key. It also has to be able to force your device to revert to A5/2 for any kind of realtime decryption of voice or data packets.

If it could readily read data from the phones, why was there such a hubbub over that terrorist's iPhone, Apple and the FBI? "Just stingray that shit!" would have solved their problems if it did what is being passed off as its capabilities.

In short, it's not looking over your saved cat photos or your old emails and texts. It can't unless you willingly re-transmit all of it over the compromised network. It is certainly a more complicated matter than your "articles" suggest.

[Molis]

All you are giving me is a problem and not a solution.

Just like all my employees.


Who exactly am I supposed to speak up to?

[callipygoustp]

Funny how little people care about their rights being trampled on in shit like this but will go absolutely bat shit over social issues that don't affect them.

Amen
(10char)

[Caolela]

This is something that both wings can and should agree on, the lack of uniformity there is where all the leverage comes from to make programs like this happen.

Exactly. It is part of the slow drip, drip, drip over years of many having grown up with online social media like Twitter and FB, getting used to having their personal info out for all to see, yet they're ostensibly anonymous. That has led to a thought process that, 'hey, I don't care/it's OK'. In fact, some want to show their personal info and minor goings on of their lives - as if they think others care to see it.

Then you have companies putting spyware/malware into online apps or browsers, programs, operating systems, etc. A bit of outrage but it soon blows over. Then a revelation like Snowden's, and the media demonizing him while none of the wrongdoer's are held accountable. A few months or years go by, then a bit more is added, like the recent FBI case to get Apple to give them iPhone keys. And so on.

It soon becomes normalized and institutionalized. Like boiling a frog slowly in a pot of water - it doesn't realize that the heat is being steadily increased until it's too late.

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What I find amusing is that anyone thinks their digital information is private int he first place. If you are connected to the internet in anyway, your info's out there. So someone's using equipment to spy on your cellphone, guess what, your provider knows everything you do, you don't freak out about that...Your ISP knows everything you do, including your passwords for online accounts, yet you dont' freak out about that.

ANYTIME information is transferred, it's not private or secure. You can talk about encryption, but any encryption can eventually be bypassed.

Privacy online has been non-existent for years, and now you are concerned with government agencies using devices/programs to do what cell phone providers and ISP's can do, and you are upset? You are more comfortable in trusting private companies with your information, than the government? Sure it's illegal, but it's also inevitable with the transfer of digital information.

Any evidence they find can't be used in a court of law. Is it wrong, yes, is there a damn thing we can do about it (and I mean in reality)? No, kill the stingray reprogram, something else will arise, kill that, and yet another. Hell I don't know why they simply just don't tap the internet back bones, and cell phone towers, and simply tap the world. Hell they probably have...

Point is this:

YOU HAVE NO PRIVACY ONLINE...PERIOD!

So, that means we're supposed to just accept it, and not oppose it as much as possible? NO.

There are many things that can be done. It requires not being lazy or apathetic or conformist or fatalist.

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If it could readily read data from the phones, why was there such a hubbub over that terrorist's iPhone, Apple and the FBI? "Just stingray that shit!" would have solved their problems if it did what is being passed off as its capabilities.

FBI Got Into San Bernardino Killer’s iPhone Without Apple’s Help


They've had the ability all along. The phony case was just a way to try getting a legal precedent to access other devices in the future, as the article points out. It failed and now no doubt they'll try again with another trumped-up boogie man after this case is forgotten.

It's also, as I mentioned above, another way to acclimate the public to gov't spying.

[Yvaelle]

This is something that both wings can and should agree on, the lack of uniformity there is where all the leverage comes from to make programs like this happen.

Agreed

10chars

[Gheld]

Excuse me everybody.

*steps up onto soap box*

May I have just two minutes of your time?

I am a totes non shill citizen just like the rest of yous. And I've heard a lot of nasty rumours about mass surveillance programs. But if just one life is saved by these programs is it not worth it for us? Who have nothing to hide.

Only by allowing our benevolent and all loving government to have this control may our children truly be safe from the communists terrorists.

[Cannibalus]

U.S. Marshals spent over $10 million on secretive technologies to spy on our cell phones.

These invasive devices are called “Stingrays,” and trick your cell phones into giving away your most sensitive information – without your consent. They can listen to your calls and suck up every single piece of sensitive, personal information in your cell phone.

Stingrays can’t be targeted at just one person — instead they sweep up data from entire neighborhoods. They’re being used to eavesdrop on innocent Americans, and can capture the sensitive data of up to 10,000 people at a time. You don’t have to do anything wrong to be a victim. And if you have been spied on, you won’t even know.

What’s worse: Law enforcement is keeping the use of this irresponsible tool under a veil of secrecy. The FBI has even admitted to letting criminals go free just to avoid confirming they used a Stingray to get the data.

But the use of Stingrays by police forces across the country is slowly being revealed. The NYPD recently admitted it has used Stingrays over 1000 times, and we know they’re also being used across the country.



- What is a Stingray and why should I care?

- US Marshals spent $10m on equipment for warrantless Stingray surveillance.

- The Secret Surveillance Catalogue.

- FBI would rather prosecutors drop cases than disclose stingray details.

- NYPD has used Stingrays more than 1,000 times since 2008.

- Map – Stingray tracking devices: Who's got them?


I think it's time we speak up for our digital privacy. And please, don't give me the "terrorism" excuse - this has everything to do with Stasi/Gestapo-like, police state espionage tactics.

@the bolded part: i don't watch kiddy porn or sell drugs or sell guns or break the law seriously in any way, so they can feel free to spend their time 24/7 listening to be burping, farting, having sex or just doing nothing. But i would guess that they stingray's recording is tied to "key words" being spoken like ehehem "allahu akhbar" or "let's build a bomb" or "i wish i could just behead the neighbour on 3rd floor, he always smells like cooked pork and his dog is barking sometimes, *bleah* HALAL!!!!" and i think those things have to be spoken repeatedly. Also if you didn't know your ISP is already on you for visiting several "risk" websites, like kiddy porn, isis and other terrorists, neo-nazi or just nasty sites. Repeated daily awkward behaviour is ok to be monitored imo...

[Caolela]

I am a totes non shill citizen just like the rest of yous. And I've heard a lot of nasty rumours about mass surveillance programs. But if just one life is saved by these programs is it not worth it for us? Who have nothing to hide.

Apparently you haven't been paying attention.

It's a fundamental principle of our system of justice to protect its legitimacy - English justice William Blackstone posited in the 1700's: "Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer".

Your statement turns that on its head.

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@the bolded part: i don't watch kiddy porn or sell drugs or sell guns or break the law seriously in any way, so they can feel free to spend their time 24/7 listening to be burping, farting, having sex or just doing nothing. But i would guess that they stingray's recording is tied to "key words" being spoken like ehehem "allahu akhbar" or "let's build a bomb" or "i wish i could just behead the neighbour on 3rd floor, he always smells like cooked pork and his dog is barking sometimes, *bleah* HALAL!!!!" and i think those things have to be spoken repeatedly. Also if you didn't know your ISP is already on you for visiting several "risk" websites, like kiddy porn, isis and other terrorists, neo-nazi or just nasty sites. Repeated daily awkward behaviour is ok to be monitored imo...

That sort of drivel has already been addressed in the thread.

Move along, please.

[Deckon]

So, that means we're supposed to just accept it, and not oppose it as much as possible? NO.

There are many things that can be done. It requires not being lazy or apathetic or conformist or fatalist.

I'm a realist, not an idealist, not a conspiracy theorist. I know that no matter what, the government is going to continue doing what it's doing. Get stingray's defeated and not used, they will find another way. Is it wrong, yes, is it lazy to know how government works, and that one branch or another will continue to do things like this, according to you, it is.

What I said, and you ignored, is that private companies already have all of this information as it becomes available. They are using it to determine if they should send you junk mail and e-mails about the new iPhone or Samsung. They are using the info to give you a coupon the a restaurant that's ALMOST exactly like your favorite restaurant, but only slightly different. They are using it to create a profile OF you to sell to other people to try and sell you things, and I promise you, they are listening to the same conversations the FBI are listening too.

Should a case arise (and honestly more than likely will) in which someone is on trial for evidence illegally obtained through these means, I will support the defendant for violation of constitutional rights. EVEN if said defendant were a terrorist that tried to kill 100 innocent children because their plot was foiled due to the illegal info. Or a pedophile being caught because he was trying to seduce a 12 yo child, or the Con Man who fleeced hundreds of retired people out of their entire life savings.

I will support going after these shadow programs who's purpose is to gather information illegally, SOME (not all) of which is being gathered in attempts to keep Americans safe. But I am not, for ONE SECOND, delusional enough that this will stop those agencies from doing this another way.

A realist doesn't have to like how things are, they can strive for change, but knows how big their opponent is and that complete victory isn't possible (you know it isn't, so stop lying).

So get off your high horse, cause you obviously don't give 2 shits that the private sector has profiles on you with all your personal information, and stop the sanctimonious drivel you are spewing that if we don't 100% agree with you, that we are lazy, stupid, conformist, apathetic, or even fatalist.

I want you, in as few words as possible, tell me what we can do to stop this program and prevent this program from happening again. Come up with a solution other than "Write your congressmen", "Make a petition", "Write a letter", "Participate in a march", or "Pray for a change".

[Caolela]

I want you, in as few words as possible, tell me what we can do to stop this program and prevent this program from happening again. Come up with a solution other than "Write your congressmen", "Make a petition", "Write a letter", "Participate in a march", or "Pray for a change".

Claiming you're a "realist" is a cop-out and doesn't cut it.

I want you to tell me, given how our system of governance works re the Constitution, how else short of armed revolt or revolution we are to oppose this. The only other expedient is impeachment. Tangentially, repealing Supreme Court decisions like Citizens United would go a long way (nearly unlimited money in politics). At this point it would probably take a Constitutional amendment, but that has been done many times before and is not as "impossible" as some think.

Again, it requires getting off your ass and getting organized and active, and never giving up. It only takes a relatively small percentage of people to affect very big changes. This also applies to the corporate spying that you mentioned - we could stop it if we got active on it.

Look at the Church Committee hearings in the 1970s, where the CIA's shenannigans were exposed and dealt with, largely because the public was a lot more engaged and active in the process then, so Congress had to respond. Since then though, people have allowed this to creep back in.

[Deckon]

Claiming you're a "realist" is a cop-out and doesn't cut it.

I want you to tell me, given how our system of governance works re the Constitution, how else short of armed revolt or revolution we are to oppose this. The only other expedient is impeachment. Tangentially, repealing Supreme Court decisions like Citizens United would go a long way (nearly unlimited money in politics). At this point it would probably take a Constitutional amendment, but that has been done many times before and is not as "impossible" as some think.

Again, it requires getting off your ass and getting organized and active, and never giving up. It only takes a relatively small percentage of people to affect very big changes. This also applies to the corporate spying that you mentioned - we could stop it if we got active on it.

Look at the Church Committee hearings in the 1970s, where the CIA's shenannigans were exposed and dealt with, largely because the public was a lot more engaged and active in the process then, so Congress had to respond. Since then though, people have allowed this to creep back in.

I love how your example is about the illegal acquisition of information, the exact same topic we are discussing now, with the same agencies that were guilty in the 1970's. Those hearings really worked.

Expose illegal activities, and you stop THOSE activities, but you will never stop everything.

"Getting organized and active" as vague a solution as I've ever heard, give me specific actions that are guaranteed to work. You CAN'T! Like I said, stop the exposed illegal activities, but I promise you, there are more than just stingrays.

Also, how are you going to stop the private sector, you've given them permission every time you didn't read a EULA or TOS and click next.

You are passionate, that I like, that I support. However you are an idealist, who's goals are unobtainable because you have no clue in how to accomplish this. I have no clue as to how to accomplish it either. But I have seen enough activism to know that activists are their own worst enemies. They turn on themselves too easily, or are distracted by a single fact to see how the whole picture has changed.

Good luck with your bake sales, and your letter writing campaigns. I have bigger things to worry about, like living. Maybe you'll prove me wrong, but I doubt it...

[Deleted]

With regards to what the towers are - someone mentioned they are relays.

For the people who are interested in how this works and why they're able to gather a lot of shit through this there's some defcon talks about this i.e. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKihq1fClQg

[Belize]

This is why I wrap my phone in tinfoil! I knew it was justified!