[SURVIVAL]Legion Alpha Discussion

[Nefarious Tea]

Alright, gonna do that now. I like the idea of a turret, it felt really unique to the spec but if it's mechanically boring then I can see why it was messed with a bit.

The problem with a turret is that while it has better flavor for Survival than the random snake, it also is immobile. Have you ever played a Marauder DH in Diablo 3? Go find old videos of the Marauder set before they changed it so that you did more damage for each turret... the old set bonus used to be that your sentry turrets did everything you did, so you had to place them in a cluster, then go and kite mobs back. It was a pain in the ass.

In WoW, a turret would be a terrible idea, because things move around so much (unless it had a huge, 40+ yard range). A turret would suffer from the same problem as Mirror of the Blademaster - You activate it, then ten seconds later the tank moves the boss off the effect. The only reason Mirror isn't crap because it is massively overtuned (in CD length, activity length, and raw damage).

Regardless, the talent as a whole makes me cry with how uninteresting it is.

[Azortharion]

You could just l2p and use Mirror properly (because bosses don't move every 20 seconds like it's a rule), same goes for some turret mechanic.

[Nefarious Tea]

You could just l2p and use Mirror properly (because bosses don't move every 20 seconds like it's a rule), same goes for some turret mechanic.

You say that, but I don't mash the button simply because it's off CD. I use it properly; just drives me batshit insane when I activate it and then two seconds later, the tank moves the boss for no reason, just far enough to be out of range of the aoe, even in guild groups.

I just worry that a stationary turret - especially in pugs - won't be rewarding or fun because things for it to shoot would be constantly moved out of range.

[Azortharion]

News flash: Using it right before the tank moves the boss is not "using it properly". If you didn't predict it, ok tough shit, but if you NEVER predict it in your own guild yeah that's your fault.

Also, 90% of the time using it on CD is "proper" usage.

[chooi]

There is not one single boss in the entire HFC raid that requires constant movement of the boss that could fuck up your Mirror, except Velhari P3 to a point. Most bosses are just tanked at one place for the entire fight or for a 'long enough' period of time. So, better have a word with your tanks if they're running around like headless chickens or adjust your raid strats.

[Beardimus]

not excited to be melee again

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

not excited to be melee again

I'm looking forward to being versatile. Having both melee and ranged spec on the same class is cool.

[Deleted]

I'm looking forward to being versatile. Having both melee and ranged spec on the same class is cool.

"Versatile" ... right.. gl finding a SINGLE raidleader in ANY "decent" guild thats gonna dedicate a spot a for a SV hunter... Let me know when you find one.

[Muddler]

This is very subjective feedback, however, the spec seems like a mess. Even on a base visceral level, nothing about SV stands out. No cool synergies with abilities, and the abilities themselves need an addition to their toolkit to make 'em POP. I don't now, I just don't see melee fanatics clamoring to try this spec and sticking with it. It's missing that X factor. In comparison to DH, which has uniqueness and one-of-a-kind mechanics/abilities, SV doesn't have anything other than nostalgic ability names. It's hard to explain. It just looks sucky. No pizzazz? No cohesiveness? It's a shoddy package overall.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

"Versatile" ... right.. gl finding a SINGLE raidleader in ANY "decent" guild thats gonna dedicate a spot a for a SV hunter... Let me know when you find one.

Impossible to say until Blizz finishes tuning (tooning? ), right? Regardless of what we see in alpha, SV could be top MDPS in game if Blizz tunes it that way.

- - - Updated - - -

And besides, I was talking about versatility. So a guild can say, "Normally we like you on ranged, but it's great that for this one fight you can switch to melee."

[zurm]

Impossible to say until Blizz finishes tuning (tooning? ), right? Regardless of what we see in alpha, SV could be top MDPS in game if Blizz tunes it that way.

You're absolutely right, but having played SV on alpha, it has some problems in its core design that IMO will make it unappealing for a raiding scenario (though fine for pvp). That's not to say it can't/won't be fixed, but here's my issue.

Right now, SV damage is built around these burst windows with mongoose strike. The idea is that you unload your mongoose bite stacks all at once in a 12s window, and then build back up to 3 stacks, while keeping up lacerate and using flanking strike on CD. Much like the issue with ret pallies with judgement windows, and arms warrior with colossus smash windows, this puts you in an difficult position having to occasionally hurt your DPS because soon there will be a target swap, or something will die, etc. Obviously this is dependant on encounter design, but it's even an annoyance you encounter while leveling. Basically your damage is focused in these like... 10-12s windows (realistically, you wont be mongoose striking the entirety of every buff window) every 20-30s (depending on procs). If your trinkets don't proc during this window, or your CDs don't align with raid mechanics... your dps will suffer heavily compared to a class who's damage is more consistent. As a result, I see on-use trinkets being much more valuable than proc based ones for SV in it's current design, even at a tier disadvantage in ilvl. Additionally, because of how the spec's AoE works, I don't see it being a good choice for challenge modes (assuming, of course, that they will pan out similarly to MOP/WOD style and emphasize burst AoE damage and CC); the exception here being if they really do buff explosive trap to the level of absurdity they were implying with a recent blue post (to the point that it becomes rotational even against a single target).

Also note your pet is a lot less mobile than you are and you are reliant on it having maximum uptime for your mongoose strike refreshes and flanking strike. Even during leveling I have to often wait for my pet to catch up.

Now in PvP, this concept of burst windows with progressively harder hitting strikes is fantastic, especially since you can choose to hold the burst with little penalty from a pvp standpoint.

[Deleted]

I'm quite looking forward to at least trying SV out pre-patch, part of me wishes the Cobra's posion attack did its damage as AoE instead of single target, other than that, I'm trying to remain enthusiastic, as I like what I've seen so far.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

You're absolutely right, but having played SV on alpha, it has some problems in its core design that IMO will make it unappealing for a raiding scenario (though fine for pvp). That's not to say it can't/won't be fixed, but here's my issue.

Right now, SV damage is built around these burst windows with mongoose strike. The idea is that you unload your mongoose bite stacks all at once in a 12s window, and then build back up to 3 stacks, while keeping up lacerate and using flanking strike on CD. Much like the issue with ret pallies with judgement windows, and arms warrior with colossus smash windows, this puts you in an difficult position having to occasionally hurt your DPS because soon there will be a target swap, or something will die, etc. Obviously this is dependant on encounter design, but it's even an annoyance you encounter while leveling. Basically your damage is focused in these like... 10-12s windows (realistically, you wont be mongoose striking the entirety of every buff window) every 20-30s (depending on procs). If your trinkets don't proc during this window, or your CDs don't align with raid mechanics... your dps will suffer heavily compared to a class who's damage is more consistent. As a result, I see on-use trinkets being much more valuable than proc based ones for SV in it's current design, even at a tier disadvantage in ilvl. Additionally, because of how the spec's AoE works, I don't see it being a good choice for challenge modes (assuming, of course, that they will pan out similarly to MOP/WOD style and emphasize burst AoE damage and CC); the exception here being if they really do buff explosive trap to the level of absurdity they were implying with a recent blue post (to the point that it becomes rotational even against a single target).

Also note your pet is a lot less mobile than you are and you are reliant on it having maximum uptime for your mongoose strike refreshes and flanking strike. Even during leveling I have to often wait for my pet to catch up.

Now in PvP, this concept of burst windows with progressively harder hitting strikes is fantastic, especially since you can choose to hold the burst with little penalty from a pvp standpoint.

Now THAT is a well-reasoned response. You do know you're in a forum, right? Is that allowed around here?

Seriously, I don't have access to alpha and only know what I've read. I'm just hoping they work out the bugs because I like the idea of having both a melee and ranged spec on the same toon.

[Huggykaze]

Right now, SV damage is built around these burst windows with mongoose strike. The idea is that you unload your mongoose bite stacks all at once in a 12s window, and then build back up to 3 stacks, while keeping up lacerate and using flanking strike on CD. Much like the issue with ret pallies with judgement windows, and arms warrior with colossus smash windows, this puts you in an difficult position having to occasionally hurt your DPS because soon there will be a target swap, or something will die, etc. Obviously this is dependant on encounter design, but it's even an annoyance you encounter while leveling. Basically your damage is focused in these like... 10-12s windows (realistically, you wont be mongoose striking the entirety of every buff window) every 20-30s (depending on procs). If your trinkets don't proc during this window, or your CDs don't align with raid mechanics... your dps will suffer heavily compared to a class who's damage is more consistent.

Agreed, but on the other hand, a short CD burst, if tuned properly, can be used to cheese/help cheese quite a few mechanics. This already brings something desirable to the table and adds some skill curve to differentiate between good SV Hunter, who knows when to burn his MB charges for greatest gain, and a poor/average one who just uses it on cooldown. I can imagine this being super useful for things like Doomfire Spirits, Resonances, Feasts of Souls, wild Cho'Galls appearing etc. If properly used and tuned that is. I'm pretty sure we'll see a few diehards doing crazy things with this spec.

There are already few specs which prefer to hold the burst or pool resources for it, to increase the damage:
MM can hold TotH charges and pool focus to snipe adds, decreasing the damage for a moment, only to rip the face of poor Doomguard
BM can hold FF charges and pool focus if BW is supposed to come off CD or AoE adds spawn soon, again momentarily decreasing its dmg
Enh can pool Stormstrike, Lava Lash or Maelstrom Weapon charges for Soul Cap proc or Unleash Fury buff

The only difference between these specs and Legion SV is the frequency and importance of such plays.

While I'm not big fan of the rotation and very little synergy between talents and abilities, I think this spec will be far from useless. Maybe we won't see Hunters maining SV in top100-200 guilds, but these are like... 0.1% of playerbase.

As a result, I see on-use trinkets being much more valuable than proc based ones for SV in it's current design, even at a tier disadvantage in ilvl. Additionally, because of how the spec's AoE works, I don't see it being a good choice for challenge modes (assuming, of course, that they will pan out similarly to MOP/WOD style and emphasize burst AoE damage and CC); the exception here being if they really do buff explosive trap to the level of absurdity they were implying with a recent blue post (to the point that it becomes rotational even against a single target).

Also note your pet is a lot less mobile than you are and you are reliant on it having maximum uptime for your mongoose strike refreshes and flanking strike. Even during leveling I have to often wait for my pet to catch up.

Now in PvP, this concept of burst windows with progressively harder hitting strikes is fantastic, especially since you can choose to hold the burst with little penalty from a pvp standpoint.

I think on-use trinkets are generally better, but a lot will depend on MB generation. With Snake Hunter (this should become 45s CD or refresh the MB buff) I can see some use for proc trinkets too, as you will be able to generate 3 charges on demand to maximize the damage gain. Explosive Trap already seems to be part of ST rotation and with Carve replacing talent (forgot the name), plus Fury of the Eagle, our burst AoE won't be that shitty I think. Again, everything depends on tuning.

What I'm afraid of is, this spec will either become new BM with renamed Focus Fire bullshit or new Enh Shaman - cool spec, but completely undertuned, 'cos of too little synergy between abilities.

[mindw0rk]

This is very subjective feedback, however, the spec seems like a mess. Even on a base visceral level, nothing about SV stands out. No cool synergies with abilities, and the abilities themselves need an addition to their toolkit to make 'em POP. I don't now, I just don't see melee fanatics clamoring to try this spec and sticking with it. It's missing that X factor. In comparison to DH, which has uniqueness and one-of-a-kind mechanics/abilities, SV doesn't have anything other than nostalgic ability names. It's hard to explain. It just looks sucky. No pizzazz? No cohesiveness? It's a shoddy package overall.

Ya, imo it is the worst spec in Legion. Out of all its issues what bugs me the most is it is called survival yet it is the most paper melee class. In PvP he harpoons in and just dies because he has no ways out.

[Deleted]

Another build with no improvements in sight. Is it already too late for a rework of the spec? Pretty much finalized apart from tuning numbers?

[Deleted]

I'm not in the alpha, but from what i read so far, this is what worries me:

- least survivability of all melee classes
- least mobility of all melee classes (yes, i consider wraith walk for DK to be better than 3min cd cheetah.)
- no stuns, just one hard cc on 30 sec cd, just like enh. shaman.
- officialy the worst interrupt in game with 15 sec cd, but only 3 sec lockout (or do 8 yrd range compansate for that?)
- no misdirection for your pet

and i think instead of completely dismissing the way that aspects worked, they should instead bring that concept back to hunter gameplay.
why are druids getting that kind of gameplay via talent (blessing of the ancients, balance, lvl90) while it is taken away from us?

and it really bothers me, that i will be stuck with 100% movement speed whenever i can't call my mount... this drives me away so much, i don't even want to play hunter anymore.
it's just a loss of quality of live, why are they doing this to us... if shaman can keep ghost wolf, why do i have to give up my beloved aspect of the cheetah?

[Eapoe]

I'm not in the alpha, but from what i read so far, this is what worries me:

- least survivability of all melee classes
- least mobility of all melee classes (yes, i consider wraith walk for DK to be better than 3min cd cheetah.)
- no stuns, just one hard cc on 30 sec cd, just like enh. shaman.
- officialy the worst interrupt in game with 15 sec cd, but only 3 sec lockout (or do 8 yrd range compansate for that?)
- no misdirection for your pet

and i think instead of completely dismissing the way that aspects worked, they should instead bring that concept back to hunter gameplay.
why are druids getting that kind of gameplay via talent (blessing of the ancients, balance, lvl90) while it is taken away from us?

and it really bothers me, that i will be stuck with 100% movement speed whenever i can't call my mount... this drives me away so much, i don't even want to play hunter anymore.
it's just a loss of quality of live, why are they doing this to us... if shaman can keep ghost wolf, why do i have to give up my beloved aspect of the cheetah?

The no misdirected will really only suck until you start outgearing the content, but yes, until then would be nice. As far as having for tanks in raids, we just have to be sure to not pull early like other melee.
The cheetah issue, which again, kind of sucks is gone, is kind of made up for with Harpoon and the sprint we now have. Honestly though, I feel the CD on it might be a little too long. I'd be happy if they reduced it to 2 minutes and reduce the secondary effects time.
Completely agree with the interrupt issue. Blizz made us melee but left us with a range dps long interrupt.

[Deleted]

I just think there isnt rly any synergy between skills. I just saw for 1st time fury wars.

-Execute increases the damage of Execute by 5% for 15 sec. This effect stacks up to 99 times.
-Execute has a 15% chance to make your next Execute consume no rage.
-Rampage and Execute have a chance to activate Berserking, increasing your attack speed and critical strike chance by 5% every 1 sec for 12 sec.
More attack speed = more rage = more executes and there was a legendary to activate execute when the target has less than 35% hp.

On paper it sound rly good spec for last phase of the fight. (may be i am wrong but i actually think there is too much stuff that give u rage and dont rly see anything to burn it) How someone will take me as survival instead of fury war? I am not rly a "caster guy" i want to see "white" hits (no racism).

When i look at survival there is nothing rly cool as mechanics. Actually i dont like any of the hunter spec but will w8 till beta to see if rest of the specs get better or i have to reroll. In my guild you have to send a mail with ur main class when the 7.0.0 hit so they can have time to make the raid groups.

[Deleted]

Hi guys, after a lot of testing on the Alpha, I just finished writing a long post on my blog about the current state of the spec, possible improvements, what is lacking and all that.

I'm not copying it here to not spam and because it's fucking long, but hope you read it, like it and share it, so maybe Blizzard will hear and change a few things making the spec even more incredible.

http://jamesstark.wix.com/theunseenp...f2f28d5dd5843d