California is first state to approve $15 minimum wage

[Captain N]

It doesnt exist because I have never made that claim, nor have I been banned for name calling.

Dude you made the claim in this very thread you get 50% raises a year....You also made a claim in the past that my $16,000/year raise over the next three years was a mere 4% raise to you. You're telling some tall tales here sir....especially after you said you made the median income just two pages ago.

[araine]

rip small businesses

except it doesnt work like that in real life, only in the dream world does that happen, in real life it is excellent for business and economic growth,

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Dude you made the claim in this very thread you get 50% raises a year....You also made a claim in the past that my $16,000/year raise over the next three years was a mere 4% raise to you. You're telling some tall tales here sir....especially after you said you made the median income just two pages ago.

Median income earners dont have 16k raises making up 4% raises that is the top of the 0.001% but as usual they think that is the norm, just shows you how totally out of touch some of these people are

[Kellhound]

Dude you made the claim in this very thread you get 50% raises a year....You also made a claim in the past that my $16,000/year raise over the next three years was a mere 4% raise to you. You're telling some tall tales here sir....especially after you said you made the median income just two pages ago.

The year will see 50% total in raises at current projection, thats what happens when your company's profits go way up. I do not recall ever saying that to you unless it was a misread on my part thinking you said 1600. I would not claim to make $400,000+ unless it was true. It is true that I make a bit more than the median household income for my greater metro area right now (which exceeds the national median).

[Adam Jensen]

I like how absolutely no one is using them.

Many years ago when I worked at a cafe, we installed self order kiosks. People used them at first for the novelty, then they stopped getting used at all in favor of face to face interaction. Eventually the owner took them down because they were an unused eyesore.

It's also a piss-poor argument. Automation is coming and the minimum wage has nothing to do with it. A kiosk only has to be paid for once (aside from intermittent maintenance) and doesn't require retirement, benefits, or whatever else an employee might require. And this is true no matter what the employee is being paid. A kiosk would have to cost an exorbitant amount in order to be less costly than an employee.

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Define "hard", then.

People typically define it as "whatever I do, but not what those other people I don't like do". My professions are relatively cerebral, and don't involve a lot of physical labor, but I need a lot of background knowledge and education to be able to make the right calls at the right time and do my job properly. Now that I have most of that understanding, I could say the work is "easy", in the sense that I'm perfectly capable of doing it. In a personal sense, preparing an official report is about as "hard" as writing a paper from my Intro to History class in 1st year. Because I knew nothing, then, so I made a lot of mistakes and struggled to phrase things properly. I know how to do that now, so that paper would be cake for me now, but I'm not working any harder, I'm just working smarter, and able to perform better as a result.

All that said, I also see no reason whatsoever to be dismissive of anyone working in a physically demanding field, or who works at a tedious but skilled job. Those take completely different skills than I want to be using. They enjoy it, I don't, but that doesn't mean I "work hard" and they don't. If anything, it would take me way more effort to do their jobs, than mine, and that's why I'm glad we've got the jobs we've got.

Hardest part of my job is cleaning/searching the Remain Over Night (RON) aircraft. It's not difficult or challenging. Nor is it labor intensive, as most of the turns are. The turns have us moving massive amounts of luggage in a short 25-30 minute sprint to get a plane in and out of the gate. It's a lot of muscle work, but it's not as hard as a RON.

No. RONs are hard because they're boring. They're tedious and they take forever. Literally, the only way to do a RON is to suck it up and do it. Same process every time. Check the seatback pocket, clear out the trash, reorganize the airline literature, check under the seat cushion, check the floor, clean the tray table, rinse repeat 50-100 times a plane (150 when we start get 737s and A-320s.) So yes, boring can indeed be "hard."

Turns are easier because you're constantly moving, constantly bouncing from one task to the next. A successful turn is seeing the gate empty with that damn plane taking off on the runway. RONs are just . . . blah.

[belfpala]

I'm just going to do this, because I have to. I'd like all of you to work a weekend close, open-close, open-close in a high volume restaurant and tell me how much I should be paying you. Yeah, alright, some teenagers can do that. Guarantee most of you will ask for a gun and take the quick way out.

Point? The jobs many people think are easy are in fact mentally and physically demanding. Precision. Courtesy. Do it right every time. Smile, even though that customer is crazy. Keep going despite that burn that already is blistering. Get it done.

[Deleted]

I'm just going to do this, because I have to. I'd like all of you to work a weekend close, open-close, open-close in a high volume restaurant and tell me how much I should be paying you. Yeah, alright, some teenagers can do that. Guarantee most of you will ask for a gun and take the quick way out.

Point? The jobs many people think are easy are in fact mentally and physically demanding. Precision. Courtesy. Do it right every time. Smile, even though that customer is crazy. Keep going despite that burn that already is blistering. Get it done.

I done that and I hated it because I did not have to use any brain functions to do it.
I did it for 2 whole fecking weeks before it bored the shit out of me.
It wasn't very intensive either, I worked in construction for a couple of months which was 200 times more exhausting and intensive that working in a restaurant.
I also cleaned graves for 3 months for minimum wage and hated it. Know how to handle the leaf blower and thats all your thinking for the day done.

Its not a hard job when it takes a bit of walking around and 1.5% of your brain functions to actually handle it.

[belfpala]

I done that and I hated it because I did not have to use any brain functions to do it.

Its not a hard job when it takes a bit of walking around and 1.5% of your brain functions to actually handle it.

Ok, fair enough. I'll disagree, but don't really feel like it. In part because I used too many of my brain functions today. I'll just say, step into back of house next time you try it.

[Deleted]

Ok, fair enough. I'll disagree, but don't really feel like it. In part because I used too many of my brain functions today. I'll just say, step into back of house next time you try it.

I was just talking about serving here seeing that is what I done.
The reason I done it is because I wanted to become a chef but never went trough with it as I did not want to work every time my friends/family were off.
That being said I know being a chef requires a lot from a person, not just hard work but also creativity in what you bring to the plate.

You will never hear me say anything bad about proper chef's (the guy throwing stuff in deep fryer for 2 min, then taking it out is not a chef).

[Cthulhu 2020]

Yeah, dang those $75K+ software engineer salaries....

I do care, hence why I do not oppose welfare for those making too little at work.

Entry level is exploited as fuck, even engineers.

[Orlong]

You keep saying "worth", but the central root issue to this whole problem is that everyone deserves a basic standard of living. Realistically, an employer should be expected to pay their employees enough that they're no longer qualifying for government support; that means a high enough minimum wage. Which the USA, and California as a specific example, does not provide; that minimum wage leaves full-time workers at a low enough income level that they're deemed to need further support.

Employers should be paying what their employee's time is actually worth. Which means enough, at 40 hours a week, to meet that living wage requirement. That's the minimum standard. If they aren't paying it, then you're expecting government to tax everyone else and make up some of the difference. If you want to go whole-hog that route, then I'll point you at Basic Income systems, where the government takes over that role fully, but this half-assed system we have seems built to create loopholes and gaps for workers to fall through and suffer hardship as a result.

Short point? Every employee is "worth" a living wage, bare minimum. Skilled labor should get more than that. Employers are essentially exploiting the government and getting a functional subsidy at the taxpayer's expense, by not paying a living wage.

We also really need to get away from the idea that $15/hour is anywhere close to a good wage, because it ain't. That's $31,200/year. Solidly working class, but nothing to really write home about, and not into the lower middle class.

And National minimum wages are unfair because if you make it high enough for people in New York City to live comfortable, unskilled workers in Montana will be living like kings for doing menial work, and unskilled laborers arent worth that kind of money and shouldnt be living like kings.

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Which is all fine and dandy until you leave the state of Wyoming and have to deal with the higher prices in other places. It's easier for me to take a trip to Hawaii making the money I get paid in Chicago versus the money I'd get paid in Wyoming.

I guess if you want to stay in the state of Wyoming and work harder to afford trips outside of it that's fine, but I'm good living in Chicago.

People who are making minimum wage shouldnt be taking vacations to Hawaii

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Well let's see what we got here:

Oncology Nurse in Chicago's Median Salary is: $91,000

Oncology Nurse in Cheyenne Median Salary is: $48,400

Locomotive Engineer Median Salary in Chicago is: $97,100

Locomotive Engineer Median Salary in Cheyenne: $60,069

Combined Median Salaries in Chicago: $188,100

Combined Median Salaries in Cheyenne: $108,469

Are you certain that Wyoming's cost of living is worth trading $80,000/year in wages for? That's an awful lot of money to claim that it's going to be a $1000 less earnings somehow equals $1000 less in spending.

Yes, even if its just housing. You pay $2000 a month for an apartment in Chicago that would only cost about $500 a month in a random Wyoming town

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The position of locomotive engineer is a union dictated salary, and the salary you quoted as median in Cheyenne is what my numbers say is the starting salary for UP.
Im sure moving to Cheyenne to get out of Chicago is worth at least $100,000 a year if not more. (Really, why would ANYONE want to live in Chicago or surrounding areas, it makes no sense...)

While I agree Chicago sucks (Its loud, full of gang violence and shootings, crowded, expensive, no affordable parking (gotta pay 20 bucks to park everywhere you go), cant have a house without 30 neighbors connected to you, sirens and horns blowing all day, etc...). But there are nice places in the surrounding areas, such as Libertyville. Its a nice small town that looks like its still 1950. You can walk safely at any time of the day, people are friendly, they still have many mom and pop stores, no thugs, a city hall with a big clock, no garish neon lights etc..)

[Shadowferal]

And National minimum wages are unfair because if you make it high enough for people in New York City to live comfortable, unskilled workers in Montana will be living like kings for doing menial work, and unskilled laborers arent worth that kind of money and shouldnt be living like kings.

It's great that you imagine that it's all about extremes here...

...but the truth is it's about having a wage that you can survive on.

[Cthulhu 2020]

I done that and I hated it because I did not have to use any brain functions to do it.
I did it for 2 whole fecking weeks before it bored the shit out of me.
It wasn't very intensive either, I worked in construction for a couple of months which was 200 times more exhausting and intensive that working in a restaurant.
I also cleaned graves for 3 months for minimum wage and hated it. Know how to handle the leaf blower and thats all your thinking for the day done.

Its not a hard job when it takes a bit of walking around and 1.5% of your brain functions to actually handle it.

They may not require much in the way of specialized skills, but even some of the simplest minimum wage jobs require decision making and hard work. The rhetoric that they're just burger flippers as if the job is easy is empty, it's wrong. When I worked for minimum wage it was the most exhausting job in my life. Even though higher paid jobs require more specialized skills, anyone can learn most skills given time, so it's not like you're special for knowing them.

Minimum wage is exhausting, especially when you have certain duties you have to get done while dealing with customers. You can tell the customers who have worked for minimum wage vs those who got mommy and daddy's credit card for college expenses. The latter group are entitled, horrible people.

[Deleted]

They may not require much in the way of specialized skills, but even some of the simplest minimum wage jobs require decision making and hard work. The rhetoric that they're just burger flippers as if the job is easy is empty, it's wrong. When I worked for minimum wage it was the most exhausting job in my life. Even though higher paid jobs require more specialized skills, anyone can learn most skills given time, so it's not like you're special for knowing them.

Minimum wage is exhausting, especially when you have certain duties you have to get done while dealing with customers. You can tell the customers who have worked for minimum wage vs those who got mommy and daddy's credit card for college expenses. The latter group are entitled, horrible people.

I can pick a random dude from the street, put him behind a hot plate and in an hour he will be able to serve everyone a mc donalds burger.
That is just how it is.
It might be stressful and exhausting, but so are all the other jobs.
I sit behind a desk all day and come home exhausted as well.
The difference between the 2 is that I can't take a random guy from the street and put him behind the desk/meeting room and do the job.
And that is why a burger flipper makes minimum wage and I don't.

I am guessing you think I am a entitled horrible person?

[Shadowferal]

"The few own the many because they possess the means of livelihood of all ... The country is governed for the richest, for the corporations, the bankers, the land speculators, and for the exploiters of labor. The majority of mankind are working people. So long as their fair demands—the ownership and control of their livelihoods—are set at naught, we can have neither men's rights nor women's rights. The majority of mankind is ground down by industrial oppression in order that the small remnant may live in ease."

—Helen Keller, 1911
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pfft...and we see the reason why socialism is again becoming popular...

no one learns from history.

[Felya]

And National minimum wages are unfair because if you make it high enough for people in New York City to live comfortable, unskilled workers in Montana will be living like kings for doing menial work, and unskilled laborers arent worth that kind of money and shouldnt be living like kings.

You have a strange view of what living like kings means. You know what else NYC has that Montana does not, a lot more business that are able to operate there. Having a base that makes more money creates an incentive for new business, even if they have to pay more for salary. Take I90 through Montana in to Spokane and see if you notice a difference...

People who are making minimum wage shouldnt be taking vacations to Hawaii

Hawaii is probably the cheapest place you can go, that still feels exotic. Tourism is Hawaii's main source of revenue, having more people that are able to go there, would only benefit business that is there. Having those on minimum wage be able to positively impact the economy of even states they do not live in, is a positive.

Yes, even if its just housing. You pay $2000 a month for an apartment in Chicago that would only cost about $500 a month in a random Wyoming town

It wouldn't cost $500 if they had as many business around them as Chicago's $2000, because there would actually be competition over buying property. The reason why Wyoming is so cheap, is because there isn't nearly as much room for business to be established in Wyoming. What exactly is wrong with Wyoming becoming a more attractive place to live? I don't think you would see nearly as much complaining as you show, from Wyoming home owners, if their land was worth more.

While I agree Chicago sucks (Its loud, full of gang violence and shootings, crowded, expensive, no affordable parking (gotta pay 20 bucks to park everywhere you go), cant have a house without 30 neighbors connected to you, sirens and horns blowing all day, etc...). But there are nice places in the surrounding areas, such as Libertyville. Its a nice small town that looks like its still 1950. You can walk safely at any time of the day, people are friendly, they still have many mom and pop stores, no thugs, a city hall with a big clock, no garish neon lights etc..)

Yeah, it has 20k people living there, as opposed to over 2 million in Chicago. As a result, there are far more business, small or otherwise. You are comparing one of the top cities in the world to do business in, with it's suburb.

[RaoBurning]

"The few own the many because they possess the means of livelihood of all ... The country is governed for the richest, for the corporations, the bankers, the land speculators, and for the exploiters of labor. The majority of mankind are working people. So long as their fair demands—the ownership and control of their livelihoods—are set at naught, we can have neither men's rights nor women's rights. The majority of mankind is ground down by industrial oppression in order that the small remnant may live in ease."

—Helen Keller, 1911
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pfft...and we see the reason why socialism is again becoming popular...

no one learns from history.

Blind and deaf and even she could see the truth of it. Good job, Helen.

[Shadowferal]

The problem we have to day is that people are blind and deaf...and unable to recognize that fact...or even use what they have to realize how shitty life can be.

I have visited sweatshops, factories, and crowded slums. If I could not see it, I could smell it...

[Endus]

And National minimum wages are unfair because if you make it high enough for people in New York City to live comfortable, unskilled workers in Montana will be living like kings for doing menial work, and unskilled laborers arent worth that kind of money and shouldnt be living like kings.

Let's check the living wage calculator at MIT, shall we? http://livingwage.mit.edu/

Let's compare a nuclear one-income family, so we include child care and the like into costs.

NYC is at $26.53/hour, for a single-income worker working full-time to make a living wage. http://livingwage.mit.edu/metros/35620

Billings, Montana? $21.51. http://livingwage.mit.edu/metros/13740

Not the huge gap you're claiming. While housing's certainly more expensive in NYC, a lot of other costs are cheaper, leading to a narrower gap than you apparently expected.

[Adam Jensen]

And National minimum wages are unfair because if you make it high enough for people in New York City to live comfortable, unskilled workers in Montana will be living like kings for doing menial work, and unskilled laborers arent worth that kind of money and shouldnt be living like kings.

I didn't realize that "not living on welfare" was "living like a king."

Why do you like subsidizing minimum wage workers through taxes Orlong? I thought you hated taxes?

[PosPosPos]

I didn't realize that "not living on welfare" was "living like a king."

Why do you like subsidizing minimum wage workers through taxes Orlong? I thought you hated taxes?

I thought they were all about abolishing taxes altogether, then letting business owners and employers have free reign to do whatever they want in terms of setting things like prices, pay, rights and working conditions?