Forgotten Realms Creator Ed Greenwood weighs in on Baldur's Gate trans controversy.

[Kyanion]

Just to chime in a bit on what you said. Most of us play games to escape real life, when the 4th wall is broken in such a way to ram a political agenda down your throat you can't help but feel a bit annoyed.

*nods* That I 100% agree with, games are an escape and breaking the 4th wall like a character referencing Gamergate is absurd. I don't have a problem with a character being trans/gay/whatever in a game as long as it is not some token attempt just to get some press/attention. Then again some people don't want that in their games at all and want to escape everything *shrugs* Can't make everyone happy with that one.

Be subtle with things and I don't think it would have caused a problem, but the way it was done just was not good at all.

[nextormento]

Really though, I just don't get it, I just don't. How this is a controversy is beyond me

The two camps don't fight if one doesn't want to.
Both want to.

[Pengalor]

*nods* I'd love to have well written characters in the game but that does not seem to be the goal from Beamdog. I think it would be interesting to have a character who was male and became female (or vice/versa) through either a mishap with magic/cursed girdle or sought out the magic/girdle because they always wanted to be the other gender and magic gave them that chance. Instead Beamdog took a different route and was more 'in your face' about it.

And not just that but the only reactions you are allowed to have are to tell them how amazing they are. It's just completely silly. In the end it's not as bad as Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel was but it's still annoying and immersion-destroying to have obvious tokens put in to push the writer's agenda and not do anything to enhance the story or the world.

[Moralgy]

[IMG]http://pm1.narvii.com/5789/3be8067bb46ec7004ba5ae66f7e0dca54b5f89c5_hq.jpg[IMG]
That's it, we're officially into loony tunes land, i'm out.
I'm getting a migraine from this shit.

Okay? One of the most offensive stuff to trans people is calling them a person "faking it", not to mention the sexual undertones to the term. But yes, sorry for your migraine, feel free to come back and ask questions when it ends~

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The two camps don't fight if one doesn't want to.
Both want to.

Ahhh okay, the two sides of the coin are freaking out to freak out at this point. That is understandable!

[Pengalor]

Ahhh okay, the two sides of the coin are freaking out to freak out at this point. That is understandable!

Confirmation bias, ladies and gentlemen!

[owbu]

He sure is giving that straw man a right beating!

The strawman argument kinda only applies when you twist someones argument. He is directly adressing people who say those things. And I think thats important.
If you are not currently demanding the character to be removed completely (which a lot of people are), but are telling the developers that the writing they delivered was terrible, you are a decent intelligent human being, who should be taken serious.
Every sides has its idiots. I dont feel adressed, when someone adresses totalitarian liberals trying to safespace censor other peoples opinions and how that is completely missing the point and dangerous. You should probably not feel spoken to by someone adressing the actual "I hate this game, because it has a trans person in it" people.

(This only applies to people not being the developers themselves. They should engage with their rational critics instead of hiding behind their "well people who say our writing is bad are just transphobes" excuse)

[Kyanion]

And not just that but the only reactions you are allowed to have are to tell them how amazing they are. It's just completely silly. In the end it's not as bad as Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel was but it's still annoying and immersion-destroying to have obvious tokens put in to push the writer's agenda and not do anything to enhance the story or the world.

Yeah that is pretty rough, there should be some more dialogue options and not all of them agreeing with things. I mean trying to find a good example here, would be like you witnessing something happening and see someone breaking into a house. When confronting them the thief gives a sob story and your only responses are praising them for making the choice to rob people to get food to live. Not the best I could come up with but just saying only positive responses or "Wow you are AMAZING" responses don't feel right either.

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The strawman argument kinda only applies when you twist someones argument. He is directly adressing people who say those things. And I think thats important.
If you are not currently demanding the character to be removed completely (which a lot of people are), but are telling the developers that the writing they delivered was terrible, you are a decent intelligent human being, who should be taken serious.
Every sides has its idiots. I dont feel adressed, when someone adresses totalitarian liberals trying to safespace censor other peoples opinions and how that is completely missing the point and dangerous. You should probably not feel spoken to by someone adressing the actual "I hate this game, because it has a trans person in it" people.

(This only applies to people not being the developers themselves. They should engage with their rational critics instead of hiding behind their "well people who say our writing is bad are just transphobes" excuse)

Very well said. I'd like to add on to the last part in parenthesis. Some people are accusing the devs of using this to deflect from some of the other complaints such as buggy as shit gameplay and poorly implemented D&D mechanics. I think they are using the controversy to hide a bit from other things.

[nextormento]

Ahhh okay, the two sides of the coin are freaking out to freak out at this point. That is understandable!

The only ones that could stop it are the devs. And they don't even need to appease any camp. They can acknowledge the complains as they are intended, and they can insist on keeping their character in their current shallow form.
But they've chosen to fan the flames, so yes: it's understandable.

I'm investing in popcorn. Sales will be through the roof for the next decades.

[Pengalor]

The strawman argument kinda only applies when you twist someones argument. He is directly adressing people who say those things. And I think thats important.
If you are not currently demanding the character to be removed completely (which a lot of people are), but are telling the developers that the writing they delivered was terrible, you are a decent intelligent human being, who should be taken serious.
Every sides has its idiots. I dont feel adressed, when someone adresses totalitarian liberals trying to safespace censor other peoples opinions and how that is completely missing the point and dangerous. You should probably not feel spoken to by someone adressing the actual "I hate this game, because it has a trans person in it" people.

(This only applies to people not being the developers themselves. They should engage with their rational critics instead of hiding behind their "well people who say our writing is bad are just transphobes" excuse)

While I would generally agree with the sentiment that one shouldn't feel attacked by arguments that don't apply to them, a problem appears when the majority of the media clearly chooses a side and uses their platform to demonize everyone on the opposite end. This leads to everyone who is a critic being decried as 'wrong' or 'evil' or whatever descriptor they choose, regardless of how close to the center of the discussion they are and it leads to people reinforcing the idea in their heads that none of the critics have anything worthwhile to say.

[Deleted]

Yea that is why I was really curious to watch the show because I was wondering how that would play into the story. I was wondering how it played out since on the surface it seemed like a typical tarp story line. Is that an actual game game is my question because from what it seemed it was an anime or something.

It's a Visual Novel first and was later adapted into an anime. Some people may disagree but I don't see visual novels as games (unless they have enough "gamey" things in them) but as visual novels as their own genre.
The story is well written IMO, with some gender confusion on the MCs part thrown in ("he's a guy, but actually now he isn't a guy, but I've always seen him...HER as a guy") due to the fact that as a girl, luka doesn't need to hide her feelings for the MC any longer. Also, her ending (only in the VN) is the one most likely to trigger a torrent of tears in the reader

sry 4 wall of text, my "cutting a long story short" skill is woefully lacking ^^"

[Biomega]

Well, I have to say I saw this coming.

SoD has several glaring problems, both on the creative and technical side of things. And that's not even going into how the SoD feature-update broke the original BG2 rendering it essentially unplayable for many people due to crippling bugs (which as of yet are still unfixed).

Yet all that is trod out over and over is the trans character and how any form of criticism toward it or the game is transphobic and insensitive and all-around inappropriate, backwards, and just plain mean.

I must say, it is a brilliant diversionary tactic by Beamdog. They can just raise the SJW shields, and deflect all incoming criticism of very legit concerns (piss-poor writing of many of the characters other than the trans one, controversial UI changes, game-breaking bugs, etc.) as attacks on their socially progressive attitude. Which, of course, like any good diversion has nothing at all to do with what people are REALLY upset about.

The number of people who complain just because a character happens to be transgender is minute. Of course there's narrow-minded bigots who'll object to any non-conformity, that's nothing new. But casting everyone who takes legitimate issue with other aspects of the game into that role is just as bigoted.

Same with the "lesbian mom" character. I've seen several people complain that it's terrible writing to have a character just go around doing their thing as any character does, only to then go "oh by the way, wanna fuck?" at the female protagonist, out of the blue (yes it really is like that, no buildup, no banter, no romance, no nothing). And anyone who complains at that shallow, bland, ham-fisted writing MUST SURELY be a homophobe, because THAT is what they are offended by and not the fact that you could have a first-year lit student intern do a better job writing that in.

The list goes on and on. There is a whole catalog of cringe-worthy, tacky, incredibly silly lines in the game, not to mention character designs that both change old characters fundamentally for no apparent reason (we get that some of the 15-year old BG writing is a bit off now, that doesn't mean you get to revise history and have everyone do a 180° from what their positions were literally weeks ago, in game time), and introduce new characters that read like a bad 4chan brainstorm (the new main villain in particular).

It seems that this whole fiasco epitomizes to the extreme the bad side of SJW - that anyone who disagrees because of your poor creative job in fact surely only does so because they oppose your views. No, not because you are a bad writer, that cannot possibly be it; must all be homophobic, transphobic, misogynist rednecks. The arrogance is mind-boggling, to actually think that just supporting a worthy cause means you can do no wrong... and to see that delusion repeated through a company like Beamdog, who pushes their agenda relentlessly using twisted, misrepresented arguments to try and convince us that they are flawless, and that any all criticism is simply because of WHAT they are trying to say and not HOW they are saying. Someone should tell them just how unenlightened that makes THEM.

Sadly, though, this is nothing new. It's a whole "thing" now, the tumblr-esque "you disagree = you oppress" meme given seeming legitimacy in the form of a company. Luckily, unlike angry tumblr users, companies actually have to make money. I for one will be voicing my concerns primarily by not buying bad products. I love the BG series and have been playing the games for over 10 years, constantly. I still am (or would be, if BG2 was actually playable right now). But I sure as hell won't be giving more of my money to a developer who thinks that you can just mask your own creative shortcomings by violently screaming about a perceived attack on your social values. That's not what's happening, Beamdog. We don't care that you made characters that are trans, or gay, or goblin. We care that you made them so BADLY.

If you serve me a turnip cake that's a gooey mess, I complain because it's a gooey mess - not because it's turnip.

[Moralgy]

The only ones that could stop it are the devs. And they don't even need to appease any camp. They can acknowledge the complains as they are intended, and they can insist on keeping their character in their current shallow form.
But they've chosen to fan the flames, so yes: it's understandable.

I'm investing in popcorn. Sales will be through the roof for the next decades.

Yeaaa I don't disagree that dialog looked pretty average, but it is par for the course for games these days it seems. I just don't get why people feel the need to then inject "forcing an agenda" in when it is exactly as average as everything else that comes out that doesn't include that "agenda".

[Toccs]

The strawman argument kinda only applies when you twist someones argument. He is directly adressing people who say those things. And I think thats important.
If you are not currently demanding the character to be removed completely (which a lot of people are), but are telling the developers that the writing they delivered was terrible, you are a decent intelligent human being, who should be taken serious.
Every sides has its idiots. I dont feel adressed, when someone adresses totalitarian liberals trying to safespace censor other peoples opinions and how that is completely missing the point and dangerous. You should probably not feel spoken to by someone adressing the actual "I hate this game, because it has a trans person in it" people.

(This only applies to people not being the developers themselves. They should engage with their rational critics instead of hiding behind their "well people who say our writing is bad are just transphobes" excuse)

But that's just it, the minority of idiots don't want the trans character in the game most of us welcome it, from what I've seen most people in the gaming community don't care what you are, and its accepted. He is ignoring the fact that most gamers are complaining about the bad writing, the breaking of the 4th wall, the mary sue villian and a poorly written trans character. Which is and should be the main focus of the so called "controversy". I just wish the writer put more effort into it and maybe included a quest or something of more reverence, had so much potential.

The way its been handled is just frustrating.

[Moralgy]

It's a Visual Novel first and was later adapted into an anime. Some people may disagree but I don't see visual novels as games (unless they have enough "gamey" things in them) but as visual novels as their own genre.
The story is well written IMO, with some gender confusion on the MCs part thrown in ("he's a guy, but actually now he isn't a guy, but I've always seen him...HER as a guy") due to the fact that as a girl, luka doesn't need to hide her feelings for the MC any longer. Also, her ending (only in the VN) is the one most likely to trigger a torrent of tears in the reader

sry 4 wall of text, my "cutting a long story short" skill is woefully lacking ^^"

Yea I don't really see it as a game either if it is a fully visual novel, and it seems wayyy too long for me to dedicate to these days if the anime is pretty accurate. It was on my list of things to watch this summer though, don't mind spoilers at all since the journey is what I enjoy, so I'm pretty excited to see how it develops. Thanks for the info though~

[Aggrophobic]

All I see is a bunch of insecure men going crazy over a game they think goes against their believes.
Silly cry babies. Don't like it, don't play it.

[Pengalor]

Yeaaa I don't disagree that dialog looked pretty average, but it is par for the course for games these days it seems. I just don't get why people feel the need to then inject "forcing an agenda" in when it is exactly as average as everything else that comes out that doesn't include that "agenda".

I would suggest that inserting an agenda into well-written dialogue is going to come off much better than inserting it into poor dialogue. Think about it, if dialogue is good then it gets people to think, it gets people to focus on the plot, they notice less that there's an agenda and treat it like the story mechanic it is. If dialogue is terrible then it gives people plenty of room to consider all of the surface intentions of the author and these instances of agenda-pushing all of a sudden stick out like sore thumbs. When the dialogue itself is unremarkable then the agenda is going to shine the brightest (whereas bad dialogue with no real agenda simply goes in one eye/ear and out the other).

[Deleted]

All I see is a bunch of insecure men going crazy over a game they think goes against their believes.
Silly cry babies. Don't like it, don't play it.

Its always funny to see you just coming into a tread and shout some bullshit and then leave again .
Maybe read the context for once?

[Yarathir]

I actually didn't care that much about this. For what reason? For the reason that this is not the original. The original game won't be altered.

However, I do have my opinions, as is to be expected:


- I think the bugs, glitches, crashes, etc. are all legitimate complaints. No discussion.

- I have no problem with trans, gay, etc. characters at all, but I do agree that it is kind of cringy if they're hamfisted, on-the-nose or there simply as a form of virtue signaling. A character, any character that is written in such a way that they'll run off at the mouth as if they'd been waiting all day to tell everyone "HEY ADVENTURER, I'M STRAIGHT!", as if that is in any way relevant to what the adventurer is looking for.

- I think the developers who immediately go to scream "transphobia!" the moment they're criticized are in the wrong, and aren't people I'd like to support. If you can't handle the criticism without breaking out the "ur just a bigot if u dont like it!", you're not a real developer. I think the same of the many other people deliberately misrepresenting criticism to suit their agenda.


In the end, the developers themselves have pulled a Gen Zed, instead of - say, a Steven Universe. I personally have very little love for SU, as it doesn't interest me, and I believe the fanbase is pretty toxic. (unrelated to SU itself, though) However, it handled its concepts well, and didn't grab a megaphone to broadcast how great and progressive they are, and if anyone disagrees or is critical, they're just dirty bigots.

[Annoying]

We don't allow threads on gender identity.

Closing this.