[Legion] Shadow Priest Discussion

[Djriff]

That's the Discipline Mindbender. They've got different durations, for some reason. Shadow's Mindbender is still 20 seconds.

Oh, well that's good then.

Was the mana reduction for Mass Dispel for all specs or just the healing ones?

[snaxattax]

You guys are debating a null point. (T7 talents on live)

the problem with void entropy wasn't (just) that it did bad damage - it's that it was reliant on orb generation that wasn't possible because it locked us out of AS and COP which were our strongest resource increasing talents. even what it was designed for was impossible because you couldn't keep VE up consistently on 2 target fights with any amount of movement (delaying mindblast because your only instant mindblast was from COP).

it was a DoT talent but wasn't just bad but was actually unuseable in the scenarios where DoTs are good - multitarget sustain.

its just like the mechanics people are complaining about now. it isn't that they're bad damage, it's that they make no sense and the scenarios where they would be good are barely plausible much less frequently occurring scenarios in raid/pvp content.

[Kretan]

physical dps of the dot? I mean our haste (and MH %mod) fluctuates so much you can't really look at the tooltip damage and say much anymore. however, you can make some reasonable assumptions with either 20 or 30 second average voidforms. the biggest problem with the change is still how it makes multitarget so cancer. we just don't have enough free gcds in our rotation to waste multidotting unless they juice SWP damage or make SoI have stronger mechanics than articulated in the tooltip.

hopefully they have another ACTUAL balance push coming before too long because I really want to know what they plan on doing to make multitarget feel and perform better. it's not just a numbers thing (they did nerf marked shot a bit, though there's still the fact that once hunters get their execute keystone marked shot scaling will be completely insane (cycling through adds to spread marked shot, then spam arcane shot on the lowest one before it dies to get the %crit bonus and then transfer that back onto remaining marked adds with marked shot... I wish we had multitarget mechanics that made sense and were good like that))

I was only talking about the dps of when you cast a dot on a target, then see how much dps that dot does. I was not making a point on multitarget or anything bigger than that statement. I think we just need an increase in dot duration, or keep the short dots with buffed damage. I would be ok if one of those two became reality.

[snaxattax]

you mean the instant damage? if you mean the total value of the dot divided by the 1gcd (dpct) that has gone down significantly due to how a shorter dot doesn't last long enough to benefit from higher VF/MH stacks. it's only a neutral change when you have 100% uptime on the dot, which is limited to 3 (at best) targets with voidbolt and then 2-3 more with hardcast swp's.

it's not like in wod where you'd spam swp on a bunch of targets to 'get you started' on your dp dumps and then just cast swp whenever you weren't orb flooded - we're going to be playing whack a mole just to stay viable with the spin to win and dot cleaves with SoI.

[Naga Coatl]

Now that LotV doesn't double SW:P anymore, and considering MH even if it doesn't work (it's a ~15-20% dot damage boost on average or something IIRC), how much are DoTs contributing to our total dps?

Last time I read numbers about them, it was about 30% with old LotV... I suppose it's something like ~20-25% with MH? Or am I forgetting something?

[Strykie]

the problem with void entropy wasn't (just) that it did bad damage - it's that it was reliant on orb generation...

Well i can see how that is an issue, and yes picking it locked us out of talents that would benefit it to the point of possible use.
But imagine with some changes or tweaking, what if it simply did not require shadow orbs to cast, refunded orbs when it finished or was perhaps something like a long duration haunt (warlock spell) that increases our dot damage on target.

With so many shadow priest design choices over the years, every step forward feels like it would have taken the devs a few minutes to think up and then call it a day, before you know it, that skill is nerfed beyond belief and now its shit (re:mind sear)

[Kretan]

you mean the instant damage? if you mean the total value of the dot divided by the 1gcd (dpct) that has gone down significantly due to how a shorter dot doesn't last long enough to benefit from higher VF/MH stacks. it's only a neutral change when you have 100% uptime on the dot, which is limited to 3 (at best) targets with voidbolt and then 2-3 more with hardcast swp's.

it's not like in wod where you'd spam swp on a bunch of targets to 'get you started' on your dp dumps and then just cast swp whenever you weren't orb flooded - we're going to be playing whack a mole just to stay viable with the spin to win and dot cleaves with SoI.

Exactly. I am only talking about damage/time. I am not trying to make any more claims beyond that. I'm not sure why this is so confusing lol -_-

Of course the dot duration was a nerf for exactly the reasons you outlined.

[Djriff]

I still think the dot duration nerf wasn't needed. It made playing the class harder. If they remove the travel time of void bolt or revert the duration change, the problem can be fixed. As it stands now it's quite punishing if you fail to refresh your dots with it in a MT scenario.

[Kretan]

I still think the dot duration nerf wasn't needed. It made playing the class harder. If they remove the travel time of void bolt or revert the duration change, the problem can be fixed. As it stands now it's quite punishing if you fail to refresh your dots with it in a MT scenario.

Yeah logically it made sense for the balance of adding a buff, but in practice it seems to be a big QoL problem.

[snaxattax]

Exactly. I am only talking about damage/time. I am not trying to make any more claims beyond that. I'm not sure why this is so confusing lol -_-

because what you said isn't correct under that assumption. a dot duration reduction is a fairly significant nerf when you factor in voidform/MH stacks - even if the #ticks is the same in the new shorter duration. it's worse as you factor in what it means beyond one target because of SoI being inexorably tied to dot uptimes.

it just 'looks' like it's not a nerf. it did, however, serve to buff shadowy insight. too bad that even if SI gave you 0 cooldown mindblast it would probably still not be a good talent, just because you would never delay a voidbolt or SWD for mindblast. the only extra gcd we would want to mindblast when we couldn't otherwise mindblast are our open gcd in between mindblast's normal cooldown and voidbolt coming off cd... so, yeah.

[shanthi]

I still think the dot duration nerf wasn't needed. It made playing the class harder. If they remove the travel time of void bolt or revert the duration change, the problem can be fixed.

They made the Marksmanship hunter debuffs (Marked For Death, Vulnerable) apply-on-cast rather than apply-on-land...I don't see why they can't do the same with Void Bolt and the DoT refresh.

[Kretan]

because what you said isn't correct under that assumption. a dot duration reduction is a fairly significant nerf when you factor in voidform/MH stacks - even if the #ticks is the same in the new shorter duration. it's worse as you factor in what it means beyond one target because of SoI being inexorably tied to dot uptimes.

it just 'looks' like it's not a nerf. it did, however, serve to buff shadowy insight. too bad that even if SI gave you 0 cooldown mindblast it would probably still not be a good talent, just because you would never delay a voidbolt or SWD for mindblast. the only extra gcd we would want to mindblast when we couldn't otherwise mindblast are our open gcd in between mindblast's normal cooldown and voidbolt coming off cd... so, yeah.

Holy shit. Stop overthinking what I said. At this point your inability to understand what I'm trying to say has to be trolling.

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They made the Marksmanship hunter debuffs (Marked For Death, Vulnerable) apply-on-cast rather than apply-on-land...I don't see why they can't do the same with Void Bolt and the DoT refresh.

Agreed. On cast refresh is a nice QoL buff that should happen.

[Theed]

And @Theed its true that psychic scream is not working on current alpha build?

All AoE spells (Psychic Scream, Chaos Fury, Leg Sweep etc. seem to be broken.)

I won't make a video in this unplayable state.

Interrupt reduction is 30%

[Kretan]

All AoE spells (Psychic Scream, Chaos Fury, Leg Sweep etc. seem to be broken.)

I won't make a video in this unplayable state.

Well there goes pvp testing for the week

[Ramaloce]

Interrupt reduction is 30%

That's kinda a surprising amount of reduction. Don't get me wrong i'm happy that interrupts finally got a nerf, but was just expected the cds of them all to go up by 3~5secs or so.

[Kretan]

That's kinda a surprising amount of reduction. Don't get me wrong i'm happy that interrupts finally got a nerf, but was just expected the cds of them all to go up by 3~5secs or so.

Same. But, if blizzard is trying to target interrupts on select specs, this seems to be the only way to do that to me.

[Theed]

To be honest the reduction really isnt that good. I would prefer increasing the cd much more. But interrupts are not the biggest problem of spriest. We just take far too much damage from melees.

I don't see the intention behind the pure shadow change.. it is worthless if dispersing outside of voidform. This is a dps increase mechanic in a defensive talent row. And Void shield is still the best talent. Sometimes i feel blizzard is completly disconnected from the spec and they don't seem to play the spec at all.

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New artifact weapon skin:

[Chantique]

To be honest the reduction really isnt that good. I would prefer increasing the cd much more. But interrupts are not the biggest problem of spriest. We just take far too much damage from melees.

I don't see the intention behind the pure shadow change.. it is worthless if dispersing outside of voidform. This is a dps increase mechanic in a defensive talent row. And Void shield is still the best talent. Sometimes i feel blizzard is completly disconnected from the spec and they don't seem to play the spec at all.

I feel you man. I have been watching a few 2s and 3s on youtube of dual melee, and shadow simple explodes under focus. One melee makes the life a freaking hell, two melee is mission impossible. And doesn't matter which melee is, even enhancement is doing a shiton of damage on us right now.

[Kilee25]

That's a lot of eyeballs.

[Kretan]

I have a feeling that barring some changes melee cleaves are going to be incredibly dominating to start legion to the point of absurdity.

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https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/hq3bNBKPQva9JzRL/

Here's a log for someone doing the CMs