More RNG on loot in Legion

[styil]

https://youtu.be/d7u8vKLjwZM?t=93

I know that this is a very old interview, but amidst all the other news and information I feel that this issue has not gotten nearly as much attention as it should have. In last year's Gamescom interview, Executive Producer and Senior Vice President J Allen Brack talks about the Worforged/socket/teritary stat system. He mentions that this stat system "has worked pretty well" and that they've talked about "maybe extending it even more so you have a little more variance". I think some ideas that were thrown out there were things like the +ilvl from Warforged having a larger variance.

Personally I feel that the current system has not worked well and has caused more frustration than excitement. I feel that there was already enough RNG to deal with pre-WoD, and that WoD exacerbated the problem. Hearing that they might expand on WoD makes me anxious.

In my opinion, loot that is subject to a 1 week cooldown should not have as much variance as it does, and certainly should not have more. The current design in my opinion makes it feel more like a punishment for not getting warforged/socket rather than a reward for getting it, not to mention the loot drama. The same item with a little more stats does not feel as good as a completely new item upgrade.

I think that the devs need to go back to the drawing board on this one and try to come up with another way to increase the longevity of a raid tier, or even better, tackle the root causes (1+ year raid tiers, etc.). Let's hope that the RNG is reduced, not increased.

[Echo of Soul]

In my opinion there should be only two RNGs to overcome:
1. The item drops
2. You win it

[Pantalaimon]

I'm not personally bothered by it. If you look at how many sources of potentially upgradeable gear then it doesn't make that 1week lockout feel as bad. If Legion follows how the upgrades were obtained in WoD then you can not only do raids for WF gear upgrades but each and every mythic dungeon as well.

[Damajin]

In my opinion there should be only two RNGs to overcome:
1. The item drops
2. You win it

Sounds like a good plan to me, and also to those who originally invented this game. Let's go with that.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

The current design in my opinion makes it feel more like a punishment for not getting warforged/socket rather than a reward for getting it, not to mention the loot drama. The same item with a little more stats does not feel as good as a completely new item upgrade.

Its interesting you say that, because I feel the exact opposite. Getting a Warforged piece, especially this late in the tier, feels awesome to me.
Its such a pleasant surprise when we kill bosses that almost none of the loot is needed for minus one specific player needing one specific item, and then all of a sudden a warforged Bow drops. Or even better, Warforged socketed tier!!!
Its feels like the perfect percent chance as well to me, so that even dozens of kills past needing gear from bosses, there is still the chance of an upgrade.

I suppose I can agree with you on your sentiments early in the tier though, where item level can be the reason you do or do not progress, but at no point did I ever feel like it was a penalty to get a non-tertiary roll piece. I look at it purely as bonus.

Either way, I think you are confusing RNG with this system.
At least from my perspective, there is nothing random about the base piece itself.
What I would consider to be RNG, is if the STATS on the piece could be altered randomly. Like the Baleful gear, ya know?
For example,
Boots of the Unvanquished Vanquisher
200 Int
200 Stam
+100 Haste
+100 Crit

Currently, its 1:1 ratio of stat proportions.
If RNG was truely an element, that could change, where it could eventually be
+150 Haste and +50 Crit.
Just like how it is on Baleful peices. You can even get a 2:0 ratio on those peices!
Now THAT would be RNG in loot.
Warforged simply increases all the stats equally, and should act as nothing more than a bonus.

Now on topic, do I want to see Warforged some times be +3 ilvl, some times +6, and some times +9?

I'm not sure. My base inclination is NO, but when I apply my own logic, I get crossed up. Why WOULDN'T I like a chance at even better gear? Sure it sucks on first kills, but months down the road there are still upgrades to be had!

The biggest issue with it is when you do Item Levels like in HFC. Then it makes the early bosses potentially drop gear that is better than the later, and that's not good in my eyes.

Ideally, I'd like to see the entire raid drop the same item level (Which I can't imagine will happen with 17 bosses across 2 raids) and THEN we can entertain the "rng" idea.
Maybe the best solution is two sockets instead of double warforged though?
Either way, its hard to say without seeing it in action.

[Sylvaeres]

Personally, I feel like they should give us the ability to buy WF, or buy sockets, with Valor. Make it relatively expensive, maybe 1250 similar to the crystallized fel.

[justinhalfout]

Personally, I feel like they should give us the ability to buy WF, or buy sockets, with Valor. Make it relatively expensive, maybe 1250 similar to the crystallized fel.

This pretty much,or make the the upgrade parts craftable too while keeping them relatively expensive to make,I personally don't see what positives the socket/warforged rng brings to the game.

[Feuerbart]

The base gear is exactly what you want. Everything else is bonus on top. You shouldn´t expect the "perfect" piece but base. And be grateful for bonuses instead of being annoyed when it´s "only" the base piece. It´s not a design flaw. It´s a flaw in the expectation if many gamers. The system is fine for me.

Edit: A system that I would find nice would be a chance to append a bonus when you merge to of the same items. So that further drops are not wasted.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Its interesting you say that, because I feel the exact opposite. Getting a Warforged piece, especially this late in the tier, feels awesome to me.
Its such a pleasant surprise when we kill bosses that almost none of the loot is needed for minus one specific player needing one specific item, and then all of a sudden a warforged Bow drops. Or even better, Warforged socketed tier!!!
Its feels like the perfect percent chance as well to me, so that even dozens of kills past needing gear from bosses, there is still the chance of an upgrade.

I suppose I can agree with you on your sentiments early in the tier though, where item level can be the reason you do or do not progress, but at no point did I ever feel like it was a penalty to get a non-tertiary roll piece. I look at it purely as bonus.

Either way, I think you are confusing RNG with this system.
At least from my perspective, there is nothing random about the base piece itself.
What I would consider to be RNG, is if the STATS on the piece could be altered randomly. Like the Baleful gear, ya know?
For example,
Boots of the Unvanquished Vanquisher
200 Int
200 Stam
+100 Haste
+100 Crit

Currently, its 1:1 ratio of stat proportions.
If RNG was truely an element, that could change, where it could eventually be
+150 Haste and +50 Crit.
Just like how it is on Baleful peices. You can even get a 2:0 ratio on those peices!
Now THAT would be RNG in loot.
Warforged simply increases all the stats equally, and should act as nothing more than a bonus.

Now on topic, do I want to see Warforged some times be +3 ilvl, some times +6, and some times +9?

I'm not sure. My base inclination is NO, but when I apply my own logic, I get crossed up. Why WOULDN'T I like a chance at even better gear? Sure it sucks on first kills, but months down the road there are still upgrades to be had!

The biggest issue with it is when you do Item Levels like in HFC. Then it makes the early bosses potentially drop gear that is better than the later, and that's not good in my eyes.

Ideally, I'd like to see the entire raid drop the same item level (Which I can't imagine will happen with 17 bosses across 2 raids) and THEN we can entertain the "rng" idea.
Maybe the best solution is two sockets instead of double warforged though?
Either way, its hard to say without seeing it in action.

oh god, please no.
I don't get peoples obsession about RNG as a positive thing- it only creates irregularities and asshole complexes where people won't take upgrades because they're not optimal, instead they'll pass and pass until the best comes along and then snag it. The only "RNG" that should be in the game is if something drops or not.

Bonus Rolls, Bonus Caches (followers), Warforged and Sockets on RNG systems was a major fucking setback for me personally in Warlords. Raided the entire expansion and I think I've gotten 2-3 usable items from Follower missions (across 2 characters)- bonus rolls? No chance, loot tables are way too big.


What they should do is:
- Remove Warforged and Socketed from RNG and instead add a raid currency (different every tier) and you spend that currency to buy socket and WF tokens you apply on your item of choice. Currency can be gained by killing bosses, weekly lockout across difficulties so you won't be forced to do LFR-Normal-Heroic-Mythic. This way upgrades are predictable and acts as a reliable "nerf" to content by steadily increasing your gear ilvl. (which was the intent of WF anyways)
- Toss out the idea of artifact talents and give us all the effects as baseline, locking character power behind grind walls (time walls) is a terrible idea- look what it's done to Diablo 3. Paragon levels matter way more than gear (and skill), instead have artifact power unlock visual effects and different models- tie some specific quests to unlock specific models of the artifact weapons.
- Toss out the idea of world legendary items, same reason as hiding artifact talents behind a grind wall. Furthermore having all these legendary items adds a second level of potential balancing issues (on top of set bonuses and trinkets), that makes them more of a hassle than a bonus. The option could be to disable them in Mythic raiding but then you make a big selling point of the game unattractive to a lot of players, what they should do is instead of items that gives your character power they should drop tokens or currencies that you trade to a vendor- kinda like DMF. Except every couple months (2-3) the vendors are replaced with new ones and new things to buy, that way if you want something you have to play at that specific period or forever be without it- bonus of that is that it creates rare items that people can be proud of later on.
- Demon Hunter limited to 2 specs, just no. Look at the classes we have now, the ones that only have 1 dps spec has always been on the low side of functionality / viability in raids. Being severely limited when it comes to damage niches, DH will 100% follow in the same category and that's a terrible design choice by Blizzard.

(positive things)
+ Mythic 5mans are a great idea- it can provide content far longer than anything we have seen so far. It does need some form of ranking table that follows the PvE "season" between raids- that way people can compete with each other. The only drawback is that it's bound to favor certain classes/specs (much like Challenge Modes) and in the end that's going to matter more than anything else.
+ Game looks better than ever, new animations are amazing- not that it's my biggest "omg want" thing in the world since you rarely see the effect of them in raids.
+ New talents and class identity is growing on me, I'm not a big fan of how Balance Druids were in Warlords but in Legion they feel more refined to what the "Fantasy" of balance druids are supposed to be. Same goes for other classes- not so much with Demon Hunters and a couple of design issues with Holy Paladins but all in all it's looking good.
+ No flying, please make it forever.
+ Professions making a comeback? At least it looks like Professions will matter more again, which is good.

[Feuerbart]

Way to big loot tables with 2-4 items per boss and spec? What are you smoking? What do you expect one item per boss?

[nightfalls]

Way to big loot tables with 2-4 items per boss and spec? What are you smoking? What do you expect one item per boss?

Yes, considering that the loot tables mean the boss has to 1) drop the item, and 2) you have to win the item. Generally in a 20 man raid you'll be competing with at least 2-3 others for gear (keep in mind not JUST people who play your class, but also your armor class and/or role).

That's enough variance. First response is spot on.


Food for thought: Why don't we ONLY have Warforged/etc. for Normal and Heroic, with Mythic gear being fixed (and strictly better than Heroic with all mods).

[Deleted]

In my opinion there should be only two RNGs to overcome:
1. The item drops
2. You win it

This is more than enought RNG for me. I side with that.

[Feuerbart]

Yes, considering that the loot tables mean the boss has to 1) drop the item, and 2) you have to win the item. Generally in a 20 man raid you'll be competing with at least 2-3 others for gear (keep in mind not JUST people who play your class, but also your armor class and/or role).

That's enough variance. First response is spot on.


Food for thought: Why don't we ONLY have Warforged/etc. for Normal and Heroic, with Mythic gear being fixed (and strictly better than Heroic with all mods).

You compete with others for gear. I am happy about every piece of loot that strenghtens my raid team. Is it me or someone else? I don´t care. My turn will come. That illustrates the mindset thing I mentioned earlier.

ME or WE? That is the big question of the time. I have my answer to it.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Way to big loot tables with 2-4 items per boss and spec? What are you smoking? What do you expect one item per boss?

Obviously depends on your raid comp but you compete with a lot of people for the same gear, then everyone wants WF and Sockets which drops maybe one in every 5-6 an item shows up. If they dropped WF and Sockets and instead had them on something we could control ourselves with a raid currency that we could buy "WF tokens" or "socket tokens" with then that would be much more controllable, not to mention fair.
The weekly Bonus Cache is complete ass- People in my guild got items from Mannoroth/Archimonde in the first couple weeks, one even got WF. I, and others, haven't gotten a single item we've used so far. It's a system that gives free items for no investment- again I'll say that a raid currency is better because then you can raid for a couple weeks and still get a item you want from a vendor. Much like we did in WotLK, which was by far the best raiding expansion so far.

- - - Updated - - -

ME or WE? That is the big question of the time. I have my answer to it.

True that whatever upgrade goes to your raid team is a positive thing, but what happens if someone is lucky and coins loot left and right and gets good cache items? That's right they get really good gear early on which secures them raidspots for a long time. What happens if someone is unlucky? Well they'll have a harder time getting raid spots early on. All because of RNG and that's terrible design, all rewards should come at some form of cost- being lucky shouldn't have anything to do with rewards...

[Feuerbart]

Still me versus them. If someone gets lucky with coins. Better for you. They don´t need it anymore and you can get it earlier. But still boils down to attitude.

[Deleted]

Wait till you see the world-drop legendaries ;>

Hehe.

[Imurbandaid]

I have been telling buddies for awhile now how bothered I am by the gear ilvls. Normal, heroic, mythic...heroic warforged, heroic warforged socketed, mythic warforged, mythic warforged socket, mythic dungeon 685, mythic dungeon 730, baleful 695, baleful 685...blah blah blah....it just gets annoying at some point and feels unrewarding...it also, in theory, gives them an excuse to drag a raid tier on because not many players have max warforged ilvl...well to me, and im sure others, once im full clear mythic or even full mythic'd out I have already lost some care about the raid tier and couldn't be bothered to even run it over and over again for a 5ilvl upgrade. I don't mind, I would just stop playing, but I do mind if it makes blizz extend raid tiers for sake of players having "more loot to gain."

I mean its also just really annoying to look at 20 different item levels, as much as it is annoying seeing 7 digit numbers fly across your screen. They tried to address the numbers wish a squish, but with loot they just throw item levels at you like candy at a halloween parade.

There was never a problem with Normal>Heroic>Mythic...blizzard just added separate ilvls to make it seem like there is still something to achieve in a dragged out raid tier.

[nightfalls]

You compete with others for gear. I am happy about every piece of loot that strenghtens my raid team. Is it me or someone else? I don´t care. My turn will come. That illustrates the mindset thing I mentioned earlier.

ME or WE? That is the big question of the time. I have my answer to it.

You're making literally no sense.

My point is simply that the loot tables are actually big enough. "Me or we" has nothing to do with the argument at all, whatsoever.

- - - Updated - - -

I have been telling buddies for awhile now how bothered I am by the gear ilvls. Normal, heroic, mythic...heroic warforged, heroic warforged socketed, mythic warforged, mythic warforged socket, mythic dungeon 685, mythic dungeon 730, baleful 695, baleful 685...blah blah blah....it just gets annoying at some point and feels unrewarding...it also, in theory, gives them an excuse to drag a raid tier on because not many players have max warforged ilvl...well to me, and im sure others, once im full clear mythic or even full mythic'd out I have already lost some care about the raid tier and couldn't be bothered to even run it over and over again for a 5ilvl upgrade. I don't mind, I would just stop playing, but I do mind if it makes blizz extend raid tiers for sake of players having "more loot to gain."

Don't forget raid finder. I have the same probably with raid difficulties too, ironically.

Getting best in slot, during farm (even content droughts) used to be something exciting, and I'd always check off items from my list.

In WoD, I literally did not give a shit about what gear I had so long as it had the best item level out of whatever was in my bank. It isn't much (I'm not a very loot oriented player), but it did take away one facet of excitement I'd otherwise have had.

[chooi]

Yes, considering that the loot tables mean the boss has to 1) drop the item, and 2) you have to win the item. Generally in a 20 man raid you'll be competing with at least 2-3 others for gear (keep in mind not JUST people who play your class, but also your armor class and/or role).

Well, I don't see my fellow raiders as competitors. Loot is just the means to an end for progression and in a decent guild loot will be distributed in the raid's best interest, not individual interests. I will get all the items I want sooner or later anyway.

If you're speaking about PUGs, well, then sorry for all those people who are doing it wrong. Go find a guild.

[nightfalls]

Well, I don't see my fellow raiders as competitors. Loot is just the means to an end for progression and in a decent guild loot will be distributed in the raid's best interest, not individual interests. I will get all the items I want sooner or later anyway.

Read the quoted post. I am referring to how fast you get gear on average. Maybe I should have used the word "splitting" instead of "competing?" For the most part my point is only that you're getting about 1/3 to 1/4 of the drops that your class can use (assuming drops are split nearly evenly), if not less.