Are Legion dungeons really the solution?

[PuppetShowJustice]

"There's nothing to do at endgame outside of raiding. I just sit in my Garrison."

"Here's a dungeon mode that changes things up on a regular basis with variable difficulties and affixes."

"I'm not the target audience for this content."

..........

[Kauko]

They are fixing the problem with more problems. And all what they should do is lower the ilvl/stats difference between content patches. With that, raids from start of the exp would still be usable, dungeons also. Not like now, when doing Blackrock or Highmaul is pointless for new players. Whats the point of that? The same is with PVP gear, why every new season gear stats rise so much? And now again, they are bringing in some new "solutions" where you will have to unlock abilities if you want to be competitive and how is that different from farming honor for gear? Just don't rise stats so much!

[nazrakin]

In a community as like the WoW community which is mainly driven by ellbow?

Thats more a wish than reality.

The vast majority of people I've met in this game have been decent people... So yes, in a community like the WoW community that is absolutely possible. In fact, that was the reality in vanilla/TBC when the small group content required people to communicate.

[Twilight Cultist]

They are fixing the problem with more problems. And all what they should do is lower the ilvl/stats difference between content patches. With that, raids from start of the exp would still be usable, dungeons also. Not like now, when doing Blackrock or Highmaul is pointless for new players. Whats the point of that? The same is with PVP gear, why every new season gear stats rise so much? And now again, they are bringing in some new "solutions" where you will have to unlock abilities if you want to be competitive and how is that different from farming honor for gear? Just don't rise stats so much!

Every decision (literally every decision) comes with something positive and negative. The solution you put forth comes with it's own problem. If the Ilvl difference between Tier N and Tier N+1 becomes smaller, it becoming much harder for normal guilds to progress without making Tier N+1 easier than Tiers usually are. This is because gear actss as a slow nerfing of content each week as the group gets more gear. Reducing the Ilvl difference means player strength progression slows and it increases the time a guild is stuck at a wall and are more likely to quit.

You claim that Mythic+ is fixing a problem with a problem. What is that problem you are referring to?

[Deleted]

They are fixing the problem with more problems. And all what they should do is lower the ilvl/stats difference between content patches. With that, raids from start of the exp would still be usable, dungeons also. Not like now, when doing Blackrock or Highmaul is pointless for new players. Whats the point of that? The same is with PVP gear, why every new season gear stats rise so much? And now again, they are bringing in some new "solutions" where you will have to unlock abilities if you want to be competitive and how is that different from farming honor for gear? Just don't rise stats so much!

You assume that people want to raid. I don't want to raid, since it relies on way too many people. Heroic raiding is too easy, mythic raiding requires 19 other reliable players and most likely scheduling my life around the game.

5 man dungeons, that can be as difficult as I can handle, with relevant rewards all the way to the end? Yes please!

[Deleted]

Yes, FOR A FUCKING WEEK. And then you were ilvl200+ equipped and facerolled it.
So your argument is "wotlk heroics were hard, because they were hard in the first week after reaching 80" ???
wotlk heroics became faceroll IN THE SAME PATCH THEY WERE INTRODUCED. Not with 3.1, not with 3.2. They had a "mediocre difficulty" in greens/blues and became faceroll once you had 200+ items.

Oh, so now it was hard for the first week? See how quickly you change your tune once you get called out on not knowing what you're talking about,

Also they were hard for a lot longer than just a week, because once people were equipped they had no reason to go in there anymore.

So the people that went in there were always those that still needed gear, unless you got a guildie to help.

[Twilight Cultist]

Oh, so now it was hard for the first week? See how quickly you change your tune once you get called out on not knowing what you're talking about,

Also they were hard for a lot longer than just a week, because once people were equipped they had no reason to go in there anymore.

So the people that went in there were always those that still needed gear, unless you got a guildie to help.

False. Since heroic dailies provided Valor, there was even reason for raiders to do heroics.

[Deleted]

Oh, so now it was hard for the first week? See how quickly you change your tune once you get called out on not knowing what you're talking about,

Also they were hard for a lot longer than just a week, because once people were equipped they had no reason to go in there anymore.

So the people that went in there were always those that still needed gear, unless you got a guildie to help.

You didn't do Heroics for the gear, you did heroics for points + crafting mats. Also, slightly difficult for the first week is extremely different from slightly difficult for an entire version. So he didn't really change his statement much, and to me it was pretty much the same thing he said both times.

[Deleted]

You didn't do Heroics for the gear, you did heroics for points + crafting mats. Also, slightly difficult for the first week is extremely different from slightly difficult for an entire version. So he didn't really change his statement much, and to me it was pretty much the same thing he said both times.

Oh my god. Of course you did them for the gear. Are you telling me a fresh level 80 who has green and blue gear doesn't want to do heroics for gear? Bullshit. Sit down and shut up if you don't know what you're talking about kid.

Points weren't even in Wrath, we still had badges. You clearly show that you didn't play in Wrath.

It wasn't just slightly difficult for the first week. Again you show you know nothing. Shut up.

[nazrakin]

I think the idea of very complicated dungeons is good but wont cather for the crowd people think it is intended for.

Those that dont have the time or the skill wont be able to really make of the most of these. It gives the impression that there is progression beside raids. But if we are honest with player skills, time required etc, I dont think we will see many players , the casuals, benefiting from this.

For the raiding crowds and the few very good players that are casuals it will be fun. For the vast majority of the LFR player, it will be unreachable.

time will tell if I am right.

This isn't intended for any particular group. Its a feature designed to have general appeal that rewards players of all skills levels. If you're someone that doesnt want to be challenged in anyway then you still got LFR, 5man heroics, dailies, rep, class halls, professions, adventure mode, timewalking, ect. Based on what Blizzard has said, Legion is going to be a very rewarding expansion so there is a chance for you to earn high end stuff no matter what you choose to spend your time with.

[Deleted]

False. Since heroic dailies provided Valor, there was even reason for raiders to do heroics.

Of course there was a reason. For them to do a heroic dungeon once a day. Those were also the people that wanted it to be over quickly, so they did it in guild groups. The overwhelming majority of players wanted to do more than just the daily heroic dungeon each day. If the daily dungeon is Nexus, then great, you maybe get some geared people for that run. Then you have ID. Then what? You still wanna run other dungeons. Those dungeons weren't the daily heroic dungeon of the day so you had to make do with low-geared people. Truth of the matter. Deal.

[Echo of Soul]

I like Legion challenge mode system for dungeons because it presents a new end game that can provide gear almost close to mythic. Take 5 friends and grind out Keystone LvL 15 Maw of Souls with 4 affixes etc.

One thing I do like about it is that you won't be spamming the same dungeon over and over again. If you upgrade your keystone you'll get sent to a totally different dungeon which will probably make it feel less treadmilly.

[Deleted]

Oh my god. Of course you did them for the gear. Are you telling me a fresh level 80 who has green and blue gear doesn't want to do heroics for gear? Bullshit. Sit down and shut up if you don't know what you're talking about kid.

Points weren't even in Wrath, we still had badges. You clearly show that you didn't play in Wrath.

It wasn't just slightly difficult for the first week. Again you show you know nothing. Shut up.

Yes, a fresh 80 did them for gear. A week and you should be fully decked (Obviously depending on how much you played in that week).

Badges, points, you know what I mean. Pretend I said currency.

Seriously, tone it down on the insults maybe? What is wrong with you.

[Allenseiei]

"There's nothing to do at endgame outside of raiding. I just sit in my Garrison."

"Here's a dungeon mode that changes things up on a regular basis with variable difficulties and affixes."

"I'm not the target audience for this content."

..........

That's the community in a nutshell. They just make new excuses until they receive what they actually want, which is mythic quality gear for no effort, investment or commitment.

[Deleted]

That's the community in a nutshell. They just make new excuses until they receive what they actually want, which is mythic quality gear for no effort, investment or commitment.

"which is mythic quality gear for no effort, investment or commitment." - I'd like to see where you got this from? Asking for challenging and rewarding 5 man content isn't unreasonable. Not everyone wants to schedule their life around a game.

Heroic raiding was a joke to me. Mythic raiding has killed every guild ive been in, since people have a very hard time showing up, and again, the scheduling thing is not for everyone.

[Allenseiei]

"which is mythic quality gear for no effort, investment or commitment." - I'd like to see where you got this from? Asking for challenging and rewarding 5 man content isn't unreasonable. Not everyone wants to schedule their life around a game.

Heroic raiding was a joke to me. Mythic raiding has killed every guild ive been in, since people have a very hard time showing up, and again, the scheduling thing is not for everyone.

People are doing the exact opposite of what you are saying. They are saying that "challenging and rewarding 5 man content is not their intended audience and that its too hard".
I've read many posts where the message was that "i'm not the targeted audience because this is hard content if I want to get the rewards", "Mythic raiders have the possibility to gain gear much faster than those who use the 5 man system", "Only the 1% will reach to the level where you can get mythic quality gear". If this does not imply that they simply want easier ways to obtain the same gear...

I am in the alpha and I love the new 5 man system.

[Deleted]

Oh, so now it was hard for the first week? See how quickly you change your tune once you get called out on not knowing what you're talking about,

Also they were hard for a lot longer than just a week, because once people were equipped they had no reason to go in there anymore.

So the people that went in there were always those that still needed gear, unless you got a guildie to help.

And you say I didn't play back then... Look, I said it had a "mediocre difficulty" for a fresh 80. That's not hard. That's not easy. That's medium. But once you got some equip, it instantly became easy. And you got that equip fast, real fast.
And you still did those heroics every day. Every day. Every day. The "random heroic daily" that gave you those bonus points (badges? emblems? what was the name again?) was a reason to do them for everybody because you got equip on a raid level. And once you had this equip, it became even easier. And even players who were full raid equipped still did them, because nobody knew that Blizzard would just bring new points with the next patch. That was a first. In BC, there was only one kind of points. So don't tell me I didn't play wotlk. I healed back then. I healed in BC and I healed in early wotlk and wotlk was a snooze from the beginning. There was no difficulty in 5mans, there was no difficulty in naxx, there was some difficulty against Malygos, mostly because it was a complex fight and players didn't understand it immediately. And there was a difficulty in Obsi, but only when you made it difficult for the achievement. release wotlk was maybe the easiest this game has ever been, because you couldn't even do the "hard mode". There was no hard mode. Hard content came with Ulduar and with heroic difficulty later. 3.0 had basically no hard content, except you made it hard for an achievement.

So it was basically like this:
green/blue equipped: 5man heroics are of a medium difficulty
ilvl200: 5man heroics are easy
higher than 200: a joke

[Allenseiei]

And you say I didn't play back then... Look, I said it had a "mediocre difficulty" for a fresh 80. That's not hard. That's not easy. That's medium. But once you got some equip, it instantly became easy. And you got that equip fast, real fast.
And you still did those heroics every day. Every day. Every day. The "random heroic daily" that gave you those bonus points (badges? emblems? what was the name again?) was a reason to do them for everybody because you got equip on a raid level. And once you had this equip, it became even easier. And even players who were full raid equipped still did them, because nobody knew that Blizzard would just bring new points with the next patch. That was a first. In BC, there was only one kind of points. So don't tell me I didn't play wotlk. I healed back then. I healed in BC and I healed in early wotlk and wotlk was a snooze from the beginning. There was no difficulty in 5mans, there was no difficulty in naxx, there was some difficulty against Malygos, mostly because it was a complex fight and players didn't understand it immediately. And there was a difficulty in Obsi, but only when you made it difficult for the achievement. release wotlk was maybe the easiest this game has ever been, because you couldn't even do the "hard mode". There was no hard mode. Hard content came with Ulduar and with heroic difficulty later. 3.0 had basically no hard content, except you made it hard for an achievement.

So it was basically like this:
green/blue equipped: 5man heroics are of a medium difficulty
ilvl200: 5man heroics are easy
higher than 200: a joke

WotLK heroic's difficulty was a joke, i wouldn't even give it medium difficulty. When 5 man groups 160~ ilvl gear (sunwell gear) steamrolled through them and not only that but killed all of naxxramas and sartharion 10 man bosses before 24 hours after the expansion came out... To me the first patch of WotLK started in Malygos 25 man and Sartharion 25 man 3D. Naxxramas and its heroics were a huge disappointment.

[Deleted]

People are doing the exact opposite of what you are saying. They are saying that "challenging and rewarding 5 man content is not their intended audience and that its too hard".
I've read many posts where the message was that "i'm not the targeted audience because this is hard content if I want to get the rewards", "Mythic raiders have the possibility to gain gear much faster than those who use the 5 man system", "Only the 1% will reach to the level where you can get mythic quality gear". If this does not imply that they simply want easier ways to obtain the same gear...

I am in the alpha and I love the new 5 man system.

Well, some people will always say that. The vast majority isn't saying that (From what I can tell, but I might be wrong).

I envy your alpha spot :P And while I haven't tried the new 5 man system myself, I'm pretty sure I also love it.

[Deleted]

A week and you should be fully decked

Again, another sign that you didn't play during Wrath. Back then we still had IDs and they still meant something. Plus looking for a group took a while. Sometimes hours. Sometimes you would look for hours and then you still wouldn't get to go to the dungeon. Or you would be able to do one dungeon and you just wouldn't get anything.

Gear didn't rain down from the heavens back then. We didn't have groupfinder in the beginning of Wrath. We couldn't chainrun heroics for a couple of days and then have pre-raid best in slot. Unless you played 24/7 and were in a guild with really skilled players that all also had a lot of time to play, it took you a lot longer than just a week.

Stop talking about things you don't know about.