Have catch-up mechanics gone too far?

[Grimskull22]

I vote yes. My proposed solution would be to crank up the dial on Set bonuses. Make them absolutely insane, make going backwards a tier and getting your 4p actually worth it

kinda sounds like a paradox there, because you have the super OP 4pc bonuses on 24 other people that carry 1 person to get the current tierset

[Faenskap]

Well, I think it has to be seen in regards to players'/game's development. Back in Classic/TBC you didn't have the same alt culture. Maybe you had one or two other 70s (I had 2 70s, but played only one), compared to today where people have 10+ 100s. Having to go from normal Highmaul to HFC in these days, with every single alt - no thanks. Were it only my main and alt, it would be bearable.

Then there's the players' attitude, and you don't always have a group waiting for you in LFG either, and it's time consuming too.

For me, I'm not a hardcore raider or compassionate altoholic, yet I've started the legendary ring quest on a few of my alts. Truth me told - I hate Highmaul now. Can't stand it, and I've only done it on LFR. Without a proper shipyard/army of followers (likely scenario for a new 100), you're looking at perhaps 4 weeks of LFR Highmaul, which frankly is a lot, when it's just a means to an end and the gear is useless, unless to replace some leveling green.

No, I don't think catch-up mechanics have gone too far. I think Blizz could have done like in WotLK/Cata by adding new dungeons that provided higher ilvl, however. And also because you tire of the old dungeons - at least I do

[Deleted]

I thought TBC was the best in terms of raid progression and catch-up mechanics. ZA and Badge of Justice gear gave players pretty decent gear, but not good enough/not in enough slots to make it able for them to completely skips entire raid tiers.

I came here to essentially say this. Having an "mid-tier" system is great! Releasing content that's accessible to players if they put some effort in farming dungeons etc that's not a step above the current raid tier, also not quite guaranteed replacements for the tier previous. The thing about this type of content is they need to actually release a mini-raid in between major content patches

Also badges are a great system to have, if they awarded these through raid boss kills + Mythic/Challenge mode 5 mans it would be a great balance for a catch up mechanic!

Really hope they revert back to this style, don't have my fingers crossed though!

[Granyala]

Catch up mechanics are good. But imho they are too quick.

Makes non raiders reach the point of "raid to continue" far too quickly.

(Mythic dungeon WF-RNG-shitfest loot doesn't really count as a viable non raid progression)

[Deleted]

I think so, due to crafted and baleful gear, which invalidates all earlier content. Nothing new here.

It's different for the legendary stuff. Catch ups for that are needed under the current system, given how powerful that crap is, and how the community makes it mandatory. Only the latest tier is actually played, while tiers that certainly don't require the legendary are mostly abandoned.

It's still my opinion that legendary quests, or any sort of expansion-long quest that greatly improves character power, are a blight on the game. They have no redeeming qualities, no matter how you design them. Legendaries of this power should be either super rare or extremely common. I vote the former.

If they're common, the game will just get balanced around them, and getting them is no longer a bonus, but a requirement. It's the basic state, the zero-sum. Community issues ensue, the legendary becomes mandatory (even if it technically isn't, you know how players are). As a result, they implement catch up mechanics that can never be fast enough, and that people just want to get over with. Legendaries like this aren't cool, they're just a damn nuisance.

This crap needs to go, but looking at artifacts, they only make it worse.


Of course, this would all be irrelevant if there was meaningful content that doesn't involve maximizing your character output. That's not something wow would do, so for now, we're stuck with the current system and its problems.

[Socialhealer]

no WoD worked perfectly, no content super fast catch up so people can sub, gear up in 2 weeks unsub due to no content, then release no content for a year at a time.

best business model, derp.

[styil]

Catch-up mechanics is a result of the issue, not the issue itself. You're focusing on the wrong aspect of discussion.

This basically boils down to the discussion of Vanilla/TBC "You progress one tier at a time, linearly" vs. the Wrath->beyond design we use now of "Everyone raids the latest tier."

Catch-up mechanics at this point are 100% necessary because of this design... so there isn't much point of arguing for or against them. If you want to lessen or remove catch-up, you need to change the raid progression design back to the linear approach.

There's plenty of pros and cons for that, but it's a subject that's been talked to death at this point I think.

I agree that those issues do go hand in hand. I think the problem is also much worse than before because this was a 1 major content patch expansion.

The premise of this applies to new and returning players, not current players or alts. It's important to see the position where posters' responses are coming from. I'll do my best to answer this from a new players' perspective.

Yes. Too much =). But it's definitely needed to some degree.
As I've observed at least, players don't like waiting for "the new guy" to catch up, and aren't as interested to carry them for gear because well, there're catchup mechanisms for that. At the same time, while systems like LFR prop up the raid scene to at least have something for this type of player to do before hitting the most current tier, the experience is very mixed unless they're lucky enough to land in a helpful, friendly guild.

That is why I am a heavy proponent of buffing the number of loot drops when a raid tier cycles out (like they did with the increased LFR drop rates in MoP). Raids should drop 4 items for every 10 people (up from 2 for every 10 -- personal loot chance increased to 50%) and have their warforged/socket chances doubled. Players will still at least progress through all the content, but won't have to spend an entire tier catching up.

Since it's you, I'm happy to let you know that I'm working on my "world scaling everything" piece. It will actually hope to address Con #3 you have there. I'll be sure to give you a quick shout =).

Great to hear Hope it isn't taking up too much of your time!

[Mukor]

The only zones that need catch up mechanics are TBC and Wrath. Cata thru WoD is easy leveling without the catch up.

[tankbug]

Not really...
If you raid HFC on your main, you don't to spend a few months gearing up your alt in Highmaul and Blackrock, raids you've already done to death, before it's good enough to start doing HFC.

[MiiiMiii]

Of couse it has. People say there is nothing to do in WoD but there is PLENTY of raids and dungeons. People just skip it all because of these stupid catch up mechanics.

I did an experiment 2 weeks ago where I geared up a new fire mage. I did Ashran (not fun by the way, but efficient) then I bought 3 Warlords Crafted on AH (and I got the gold by buying tokens... How fun...). I suddenly have 707 ilvl and got invited to all Mythic dungeons and even some guys in one of them asked me to join their heroic raiding guild.

I could have easily payed gold for some guy to boost me in 2v2 as well, to get full 710ilvl gear from PvP in a day...

2 weeks I have had this character! Now the only thing for me to do is raid heroic+ with a guild... WHAT?!

Either I join a heroic+ raiding guild or I have to find another character to gear up...

[Nalorakk]

They've gone too far since WotLK.

Being able to grind ez mode afk heroics for tier from the 2nd highest content level was ridiculously stupid

[yeto]

Of couse it has. People say there is nothing to do in WoD but there is PLENTY of raids and dungeons. People just skip it all because of these stupid catch up mechanics.

I did an experiment 2 weeks ago where I geared up a new fire mage. I did Ashran (not fun by the way, but efficient) then I bought 3 Warlords Crafted on AH (and I got the gold by buying tokens... How fun...). I suddenly have 707 ilvl and got invited to all Mythic dungeons and even some guys in one of them asked me to join their heroic raiding guild.

I could have easily payed gold for some guy to boost me in 2v2 as well, to get full 710ilvl gear from PvP in a day...

2 weeks I have had this character! Now the only thing for me to do is raid heroic+ with a guild... WHAT?!

Either I join a heroic+ raiding guild or I have to find another character to gear up...

well this is not true - you might have 710 ilvl - but no legendary ring and no setbonus so your dps with that pvp gear will be shitty - you can join a normal raid and get atleast 4 tier prices and 2 tinket upgrades before heroic - sure as guilds are dyling left and right a heroic guild would pick you up and carry/gear you

[MiiiMiii]

well this is not true - you might have 710 ilvl - but no legendary ring and no setbonus so your dps with that pvp gear will be shitty - you can join a normal raid and get atleast 4 tier prices and 2 tinket upgrades before heroic - sure as guilds are dyling left and right a heroic guild would pick you up and carry/gear you

I think we can agree even if I should do normal raid first that this is pretty insane for 2 weeks of playing. I did not even play that much. It is not fun skipping content.

[ItachiZaku]

I think the only way I could top that would be saying "Oh, it is easy and the day after I dinged I was 13/13 mythic with 700+ gear because I bought a full clear for a million?

Well,... they is absolutely possible. Very realistic scenario:
Friday night, you are 99.5, you wake up at 8am and ding 100, you hit pub vent and get into an Ashran Hydra group. 3 hours alter, you're ilevel is 700.8. Your guilds alter run starts that night, so you do some mythics to get your valor and hit LFR. You half clear and get some drops. Next night, finish the carry.

[SoulSoBreezy]

That is why I am a heavy proponent of buffing the number of loot drops when a raid tier cycles out (like they did with the increased LFR drop rates in MoP). Raids should drop 4 items for every 10 people (up from 2 for every 10 -- personal loot chance increased to 50%) and have their warforged/socket chances doubled. Players will still at least progress through all the content, but won't have to spend an entire tier catching up.
Great to hear Hope it isn't taking up too much of your time!

It's a tough subject to tackle; I don't see a silver bullet that won't alienate a large number of players. Using your example, it takes a step back towards BC where you split your population into:
1. Players on raid teams with their alts
2. New or returning players, or ones who're just slower

And we'd step towards BC mentality as well. Group 1 will be okay with their alts because their team knows them and will bring them in for split raiding, quick runs, etc. Group 2, comprised of more casual folk and players looking to break into group 1, bands together for necessity but will struggle.
And if/when group 1 meets attrition on their roster, the easy solution is to poach from group 2, so, perpetual struggle on their part. I base all this from how I remember BC.
You'll want to address earning pvp gear as well. It was arguably the fastest way to gear up in WoD, after all.

That's just a quick thought though, easily refuted cause again - no silver bullet. For wod, personally I think all that needed to be done was to do away with baleful gear, but pvp gearing in wod was so fast and necessary for pvpers that I can't think of a solution for that avenue.

And thanks for your enthusiasm. This sort of work is more passion than fame cause I def ain't famous =), and this is a fun subject I've been meaning to work on.

[Traveler Voltin]

"Tbc was the best"
Sure ignore that fact that 90% raid guilds were stuck on kara for all of tbc

[Varaben]

"Tbc was the best"
Sure ignore that fact that 90% raid guilds were stuck on kara for all of tbc

What does that have to do with the expansion in general? How many guilds were stuck in MC for all of Vanilla or never got past Naxx in Wrath? Probably a lot. Wouldn't it be worse if everyone and their grandma finished all the raids?

- - - Updated - - -

How can you even make a post like this when in WoD catch up is much much worse than probably any previous expansion. In worse I mean its much harder to get a new char up in item level compared to how it was in both MoP, Cata, Wrath.

I find this hard to believe. You can get full 695 from tanaan in a couple weeks. Granted, the ring does take several weeks and is required for high end raiding. But mop was the same way and was no worse with the cape. Shouldn't a new character take a while? I'm with the OP, its too easy to level and gear alts. When a new raid tier comes out, it shouldn't mean no one ever touches the first tier again. Yet, today and the last few expansions have been that way. I liked how MC and Kara had staying power. Wrath naxx did too, to a lesser degree.

[Pantalaimon]

The thing with reducing or removing catch up mechanics is that you have to ask whether or not there will be enough pug raid groups for the older tiers on Blizzard's lfg to prevent players from being stuck with tier from an inferior level and unable to move on. If there wouldn't be then reducing catch up mechanics wouldn't work.

[chooi]

I thought TBC was the best in terms of raid progression and catch-up mechanics. ZA and Badge of Justice gear gave players pretty decent gear, but not good enough/not in enough slots to make it able for them to completely skips entire raid tiers.

^
This.

Sadly, Sunwell Patch went too far and ruined that, though.

[Akka]

I don't like the very concept of "catch-up mechanism", so well, obviously for me they have gone too far...