Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[Time Sage]

But still, the owner of the copyright, Blizzard, has the exclusive rights to perform (or authorize another to perform) a reproduction of the work they created, distribute copies of the work through sale (which we know is not occurring, but I'm sure exemptions are present for donations to fund the project, because that would be a transfer of funds and I believe Nost did have donations set up), or to "perform and display the work publicly".
Argue all you'd like about why Blizzard did this, what their "true" motive is for it or otherwise, but they have legal justification to do so, and they have no reason to provide a motive behind it.

Not just justifcation. REQUIREMENT. End of story. You either fight all attempts at infringement or you lose it into public domain and can't get it back. And that would be far worse.

[Kyanion]

From what I've read (I haven't actually raided Mythic this expansion, I prefer closer knit friendly guilds.) Some of the mythic fights in the 20-man format have been some of the best fights ever. The only people really griping about the 20-man format are those guilds that had trouble with retention and recruiting.

I've done almost every mythic fight and while some of them are pretty good none of them stand out as 'the best ever'. I mean it could be argued that most of them could be done as 10 man versions with hardly any changes. The only fight that REQUIRED any class would be the furnace requiring mind control from priests. I cannot speak of mythic Arch though but I've heard he is easier than mannoroth now because of the 1 heal strat. So I think Mannoroth is the hardest fight since Gorefiend in there. So I can't speak with experience on EVERY fight but a lot of them. Still I've been pretty impressed with the raiding, just this content drought has bored me a bit.

I still feel like Garrosh/Siegecrafter Blackfuse 10 man were the hardest fights I've ever done since TBC's vash'j though.

[AeneasBK]

Cata was criticised for making heroics too difficult, very linear questing with too much emphasis on pop-culture, uninspired zones (Hyjal, Uldum and Twilight Highlands just looked like neighbouring zones with fire/titans/old god crap spread all over them,) an incoherent feeling due to them being accessed through portals instead of being one landmass, too many ideas recycled from Vanilla (Blackwing Lair 2.0 and Molten Core 2.0) and the last set of instanced content had its entrances in a TBC area and took place in an instanced version of a WotLK zone.

I agree with everything you've written but I thought Twilight Highlands (in partiuclar the Wildhammer Dwarves area) and Vash'jir were amazing. Would have liked Uldum a lot more if it hadn't been a big parody of Raiders of the Lost Ark, because the aesthetics were great

I didn't realise people complained about the zones that much apart from Vash'jir...

[Unholyground]

If Blizzard was smart they would have supported it and just made them inject real Blizzard adds into the game and on their website. Not that complicated.

[AeneasBK]

I still feel like Garrosh/Siegecrafter Blackfuse 10 man were the hardest fights I've ever done since TBC's vash'j though.

Not gonna lie for about the past week I couldn't remember what that guys name was and it was really bugging me to the point where I wasn't letting myself look it up :P

[Kyanion]

Yes, it all boils down to opinion really. I never not once got the same sense of epic battling doing the 10 man content; BUT at the same time, there was not nearly as many 25 man raids were the group felt as cohesive and tightly-knit. I wonder how healthy the game would be if they had introduced Mythic and flex at the start of Catalysm, I'd happily predict 15m subs+.

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You couldn't follow the tank and spam your AOE abilities and pick up an epic at the end?

10 man raiding felt more close-kint, I became great friends with almost all of them and most of us met up at Blizzcon for a guild trip. It was pretty awesome. In 20 man mythic raiding I don't have as much close-kint friendships and the raiding just feels a bit too much. I think I'd have loved 10-15 man raiding or flexible mythic. But 20 man mythic just was bit too much for me to enjoy.

Hmm I'm trying to remember what the big difference in difficulty was from WotLK heroics to Cata heroics. Maybe that was it that cata heroics were harder earlier on than they were at the end of WotLK. I just don't remember.

[Gadzooks]

When a company flexes their wallet to prove a stupid point when they make the kinds of money they do, it makes them look really bad especially in the eyes of the people who made their games so famous in the first place.

Well, that's what you hope is true, to rationalize you playing a game you're not legally entitled to.

[Kyanion]

Cata was criticised for making heroics too difficult, very linear questing with too much emphasis on pop-culture, uninspired zones (Hyjal, Uldum and Twilight Highlands just looked like neighbouring zones with fire/titans/old god crap spread all over them,) an incoherent feeling due to them being accessed through portals instead of being one landmass, too many ideas recycled from Vanilla (Blackwing Lair 2.0 and Molten Core 2.0) and the last set of instanced content had its entrances in a TBC area and took place in an instanced version of a WotLK zone.

Yeah I think you are right on those points Dhrizzle, maybe it was that the heroic dungeons were harder than wotlk and people weren't happy about that. But you were spot on with a lot of that.

[Dhrizzle]

Yeah have to admit seeing anyone write "Cata was good for guilds" triggered me pretty hard :P For most of the time I played WoW it was never really about "playing the game" so much as "running a guild" (for me) so the game changes that affected guild management were the ones I remember most fondly or hated with the most passion I stopped in WoD because no one needs to be in a guild anymore so there isn't a lot of point

Didn't every expansion screw guilds in some way? TBC changed from 40-man with occasional 20-man to 25-man with occasional 10s with min-maxing of top classes. WotLK meant you had to choose between 10 and 25 for all raids and work around the hybrids to get all the buffs without sacrificing damage to the "hybrid tax." Cata made you question the reason for bothering with 25-man raids. MoP and WoD gave LFR which probably disincentivised some players, plus the glut of choices available through flexible raid sizes or locked-at-20 mythic.

[Goondicker]

I still feel like Garrosh/Siegecrafter Blackfuse 10 man were the hardest fights I've ever done since TBC's vash'j though.

I must admit, Heroic 25 Blackfuse was my favorite fight since Wrath.

[Kyanion]

Didn't every expansion screw guilds in some way? TBC changed from 40-man with occasional 20-man to 25-man with occasional 10s with min-maxing of top classes. WotLK meant you had to choose between 10 and 25 for all raids and work around the hybrids to get all the buffs without sacrificing damage to the "hybrid tax." Cata made you question the reason for bothering with 25-man raids. MoP and WoD gave LFR which probably disincentivised some players, plus the glut of choices available through flexible raid sizes or locked-at-20 mythic.

Well with WotLK 10 man and 25 man were separate lockouts and the gear in 10 man was lower. 10 man raiding still had a place but it wasn't super popular I don't believe. And yeah Cata basically crushed 25 mans for that expansion and MoP made 10/25 man equal.

I think flex raiding is a great idea, I've loved it. I guess with them sticking with 20 man mythic being the standard that should put a bit more stability in raiding. I do think LFR/Normal/Heroic/Mythic feels too much but with mythic not being flexible we're kind of stuck with it I think.

[Gadzooks]

Theft of IP implies making a profit.

There was no theft. It was copyright infringement, and there is no need for profit to make it illegal - it's illegal PERIOD. There's no "implications" here - you cannot access the game without Blizzard's permission, profit is not required.

[AeneasBK]

Didn't every expansion screw guilds in some way? TBC changed from 40-man with occasional 20-man to 25-man with occasional 10s with min-maxing of top classes. WotLK meant you had to choose between 10 and 25 for all raids and work around the hybrids to get all the buffs without sacrificing damage to the "hybrid tax." Cata made you question the reason for bothering with 25-man raids. MoP and WoD gave LFR which probably disincentivised some players, plus the glut of choices available through flexible raid sizes or locked-at-20 mythic.

I dunno in WotLK you could do BOTH 10 and 25 man, or am I really failing to remember accurately. The transition between TBC and Wrath was "more accessable" rather than less. But the people who could only gather 9 other friends at the same time were upset at not getting as good quality loot as the people who could gather 24, so they made the Catabortion hue hue hue.

Not, I worded that deliberately, I'm not sincerely trying to antagonise

[Kyanion]

I must admit, Heroic 25 Blackfuse was my favorite fight since Wrath.

Yeah I never did 25 man, I've heard that in that raid blackfuse was harder on 10 but still does not mean 25 was easy, that fight had a shit load going on and was really well designed. We got our asses kicked by that boss but man was it ever rewarding to finally down that bastard.

[Deleted]

If Blizzard was smart they would have supported it and just made them inject real Blizzard adds into the game and on their website. Not that complicated.

They were infringing on Blizzard's property, and Blizzard should have supported that? I'm not sure how that would have been smart?

[Namalia]

I still feel like Garrosh/Siegecrafter Blackfuse 10 man were the hardest fights I've ever done since TBC's vash'j though.

Interesting.

I've raided nearly weekly for years, but I haven't raided seriously since ICC. (Moreso in Ulduar.)

I actually Pugged Garrosh N in MoP to get the wolf (Yay for 2-healing, that was fun.) But I haven't taken many cracks at H in MoP or M in WoD. Just don't have the desire.

They sound like fun though.

[Kyanion]

I dunno in WotLK you could do BOTH 10 and 25 man, or am I really failing to remember accurately. The transition between TBC and Wrath was "more accessable" rather than less. But the people who could only gather 9 other friends at the same time were upset at not getting as good quality loot as the people who could gather 24, so they made the Catabortion hue hue hue.

Not, I worded that deliberately, I'm not sincerely trying to antagonise

Yeah wotlk was both 10 and 25 but 10 man had shittier gear and you couldn't do the legendary chain in ICC I believe.

[AeneasBK]

10 man raiding still had a place but it wasn't super popular I don't believe.

As far as I could tell, 10 man was a lot more popular. Especially the ease of access it gave to server PuGs. Logging on a Saturday afternoon and you could most likely form a group for most any of the 10 man non heroic content they had made. Obv. different server to server. I'd agree there weren't nearly as many "10 man dedicated" raiding guilds. But I think the format of 10 man was run more often than 25 which is why they did what they did for Cata.

[Kyanion]

Interesting.

I've raided nearly weekly for years, but I haven't raided seriously since ICC. (Moreso in Ulduar.)

I actually Pugged Garrosh N in MoP to get the wolf (Yay for 2-healing, that was fun.) But I haven't taken many cracks at H in MoP or M in WoD. Just don't have the desire.

They sound like fun though.

Best bet to see some of the fights on heroic is just find a guild that clears it often and get in with some friends. Since it is flexible it is a bit easier to carry some people if the rest are good. Also if you like mounts you'd want to do Archimonde at least on normal.

[Dhrizzle]

I agree with everything you've written but I thought Twilight Highlands (in partiuclar the Wildhammer Dwarves area) and Vash'jir were amazing. Would have liked Uldum a lot more if it hadn't been a big parody of Raiders of the Lost Ark, because the aesthetics were great

I didn't realise people complained about the zones that much apart from Vash'jir...

I purposefully left out Vash'jir and Stonecore because they were both phenomenal in design. Vash'jir (to me) has some of the best visuals marred by some of the most painfully generic questing, though I did like the storytelling device of seeing through the Naga warrior's eyes.

Maybe I just put some of my own criticisms into that one. It isn't that I didn't enjoy all the zones in Cata, but it really felt like Ashenvale+Fire, Tanaris+Titans and Arathi+Madness. Also I was a bit miffed that it was all designed to be flown over, I did try using a ground mount for a while but there were vast swathes of emptiness and areas that seemed inaccessible without taking to the skies.