Russian attack aircraft just flew within 30 feet of a U.S. Navy ship

[Reeve]

You mean other than the fact your navy obviously thought it wasn't? Other than the fact it was unarmed and obviously wasn't on a collision course? What more do you need for evidence about how stupid it is for you people to be yelling "should have shot it down".

Coming within 30 feet of something when traveling at the speed of a fighter jet is inherently a collision course.

And please recognize that I never said "should have shot it down." I said, "I'm surprised they didn't shoot it down."

[PhillieB]

Because fly-overs isn't a new thing, einstein? Don't pretend like you don't know, Russophobe, nobody is buying this crap from you.

Last time we had a fly-over thread in this forum, the Russians n Americans involved in fly-over were having their cameras out taking pictures of each other, but the thread was full of the Russophobic paranoia n bullshit. Nothign has changed.

mmm just a friendly flyover eh, take your pick from incidents> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...4-9851309.html

[Skroe]

I'm legit sad they didn't blow it the fuck out of the sky.

Like.

This made me sigh in real life.

Not this time.

If things ever got hotter, than yeah.

The US miltiary is descalatory by nature. Because the flip side of that is it needs to shoot down every Russian thing flying to protect itself from retaliation.

Case in point, if the US had shot down the planes, Russia would have likely sent out ships and planes to sink the boat and sue for peace at that point. The US would have to protect against that so it would have deployed more ships, patriots and more aircraft and shot them all down which would have caused more Russian escalation. Or by the flipside Russia does manage to sink the Cook, causing 300 American deaths, in which case god help Russia because the US would completely lose it's shit. Big wars have been started for less.

As much as teaching Russia a long overdue lesson would be meaningful and helpful to world peace, Russia and Putin are increasingly desperate and have less and less to lose. It's better just to turn the other cheek at this point and point out that grown-ups like NATO don't do the dangerous stuff Russia does.

[Alcomo]

Coming within 30 feet of something when traveling at the speed of a fighter jet is inherently a collision course.

And please recognize that I never said "should have shot it down." I said, "I'm surprised they didn't shoot it down."

Why is it surprising? Your naval officers were obviously thinking the same as me. An unarmed Russian aircraft flyover that would have caused more bad than good to shoot it down. I am just proving the sickness of some of you Americans and your "shoot first" mentality. Had your navy actually shot that plane, you could have caused major repercussions. It gave me faith that your military actually are intelligent, unlike many of your citizens.

[Skroe]

Why is it surprising? Your naval officers were obviously thinking the same as me. An unarmed Russian aircraft flyover that would have caused more bad than good to shoot it down. I am just proving the sickness of some of you Americans and your "shoot first" mentality. Had your navy actually shot that plane, you could have caused major repercussions. It gave me faith that your military actually are intelligent, unlike many of your citizens.

I don't think many, if anyone, including Reeve, are advocating shooting it down.

The US Navy acted with perfect professionalism.

The fact is, Russia does these stupid stunts (China too) and Western armed forces don't. That's a big societal, governmental and culture contrast.

It's also worth pointing out, the other side thinks this stuff is fine until somebody gets shot down (Turkey) or there is an accident (Hainan Island Incident). Then suddenly it's Code Red. Like they should be surprised? Play with fire, get burned eventually. The Russians were trying to pal up to Turkey for years, but the second they got their aircraft shot down by invading another country's airspace, they now treat the Turks like they're warmongering barbarians.

[mizeri]

they just wanted to be like tom cruise

[Cerus]

And like I said, I am glad your military has more intelligence than your civilians. It obviously was no threat. If they had guys like you and the other Americans in this thread in charge, we would have hit WW3 years ago.

Jets do NOT fly within 30' of anything unless they're landing which is a very dangerous maneuver on a carrier. Jets are also not immune to malfunctions. What if during one of the repeated fly overs the pilot lost control and turned his aircraft into a giant missile?

That IS a threat. Ignoring attempts at radio contact IS a threat.


Keep your Canadian opinions to yourself. The US doesn't just throw its hands up and let a country threaten us.

[Cybran]

It's better just to turn the other cheek at this point and point out that grown-ups like NATO don't do the dangerous stuff Russia does.

One of your NATO puppets already shot down an unarmed Russian bomber for a 17 seconds incursion. It's way past the point of provocation.

[Cerus]

Why is it surprising? Your naval officers were obviously thinking the same as me. An unarmed Russian aircraft flyover that would have caused more bad than good to shoot it down. I am just proving the sickness of some of you Americans and your "shoot first" mentality. Had your navy actually shot that plane, you could have caused major repercussions. It gave me faith that your military actually are intelligent, unlike many of your citizens.

And in your nation bashing of America you're proving Canada is a bunch of pansies who will surrender at the first sight of trouble.

[Jester Joe]

Let's drop the nation bashing/hostilities in general please, and discuss the actual topic at hand.

[Skroe]

Jets do NOT fly within 30' of anything unless they're landing which is a very dangerous maneuver on a carrier. Jets are also not immune to malfunctions. What if during one of the repeated fly overs the pilot lost control and turned his aircraft into a giant missile?

That IS a threat. Ignoring attempts at radio contact IS a threat.


Keep your Canadian opinions to yourself. The US doesn't just throw its hands up and let a country threaten us.

But neither does the US go nuclear every time somebody irks us.

We should think with our head, not our balls. The Russians are the side that are all about balls. They have everything to prove. We have nothing to prove. We hold all the cards, all the keys to the kingdom, all the power.

Let's say Russia did collide with the Cook? Whats the better scenario?

(1) A large scale, if fleeting, war in Europe that would cost tens of thousands of lives and tax US resources?
(2) Politically and economically isolating Russia through the UN. Using the incident as a NATO rallying point (much as Turkey did), and then a covert campaign to undermine Russia from within, such as providing arms to rebels and sabotaging infrastructure via agents and Cyber attacks?

Option 1 would beat Russia back to licking it's Russia to lick it's wounds, but the Status Quo Ante would mostly be the state of affairs after, just with tens of thousands of deaths on both sides. Option 2 would be slower, and less kinetic, but could fundamentally undermine Russia as an entity. Only Russian soldiers would suffer fighting the US. But if you want to beat a country, send every man woman and child you can to the bread line.

That's how you beat Russia. Russia is a country that has lost so much, and are terrified of losing even more, that the best thing you can do if you want to beat them is find ways to keep robbing them of more and more. Rob them of their money. Rob them of their pride. Rob them of their security. That's how you strategically defeat a country whose only true value is the image of strength. Not even real strength... just the perception of it.

[Slant]

In the end, the most we can do is just shake our head at this is seriously what's on Europe's border. It made a kind of sense when you had a rival superpower with a rival economic and political system and rival ambitions for Europe and the world. But Russia isn't that. Not even remotely. It's the global equivalent of a Professional wrestling heel. It's acting for *REASONS*. What reasons? I don't think even it has a bullet-proof list of them.

I'm speculating, but it may be to distract from domestic weakness. This is something US presidents have been accused of in the past, too. When they don't bring the game domestically, they stir shit up abroad, send in the military and look like heroes as a result. Putin's Russia clearly is in trouble with the sanctions cutting into the economy. This could be just a show of bravado to give Russians something to feel good about while they endure the economical difficulties the country is facing.

- - - Updated - - -

One of your NATO puppets already shot down an unarmed Russian bomber for a 17 seconds incursion. It's way past the point of provocation.

An incursion doesn't have a time frame after which it's okay to shoot someone down. You need to understand that lines on a map are final. You're not even supposed to fly near them if you have no business there, you'll get warned well ahead of time. If you still cross that line, you're at the mercy of whoever has the finger on the trigger... and "But it was only 17 seconds" really doesn't cut it as a defense.

[Alcomo]

Jets do NOT fly within 30' of anything unless they're landing which is a very dangerous maneuver on a carrier. Jets are also not immune to malfunctions. What if during one of the repeated fly overs the pilot lost control and turned his aircraft into a giant missile?

That IS a threat. Ignoring attempts at radio contact IS a threat.


Keep your Canadian opinions to yourself. The US doesn't just throw its hands up and let a country threaten us.

You're right. Instead the US drops in and gets their asses kicked. Or they end up with thousands of people dead because they let multiple buildings get flown into by hijacked jets flown by people the US pissed off. You guys act like the big tough guys (yet you couldn't even beat us Canadians) and then end up with more casualties and negatively affecting yourselves and other countries around the world. Your not the white knights you think you are. In fact, you're the biggest problem of them all. You can say "keep your Canadian opinion to yourself", but last I checked my country isn't constantly living in fear and hated by 90% of the world. We aren't responsible for terror cells like ISIS and Al Qaeda. Or putting men like Saddam in charge. We aren't arming violent countries. The US is.

[Cybran]

An incursion doesn't have a time frame after which it's okay to shoot someone down.

So our border guards should start shooting illegal immigrants then? All 2 million of them, cause you know, lines?



NATO rules of engagement clearly have a time frame. The turkish planes were waiting in an ambush. They were unprovoked and they killed 1 Russian pilot. The fact that you are here defending the rabid killers is disgusting.

[Skroe]

One of your NATO puppets already shot down an unarmed Russian bomber for a 17 seconds incursion. It's way past the point of provocation.

And I even mentioned how and why that happened, if you looked at the posts I made in the last 20 minutes rather than commenting on one.

It's because Russia expected the Turks to respond the same way the US or UK would, because Russia views NATO as a monolithic entity, rather than a diverse one. They never considered that maybe the Turkish red line is different than the Norwegian one.

As I said, eventually you play with fire, you get burned. Frankly, Russia should stick to buzzing US and UK aircraft and ships. We're predictable and professional. At least one party in that episode (the US/UK) is going to be professional and safe. With Turkey, Russia gambled on a country that could very well be as reckless as they are.

Best thing for Russia to do is just drop the games that doesn't impress anybody and nobody cares about, before somebody else - probably a Russian - gets hurt.

I mean really. Does this say anything about NATO and Russia military might? Is it a show of force? It's a silly stunt that accomplishes nothing. Besides makes for a headline, a forum thread and a military incident report.

So why bother? Dick measuring? Really? Because it's a rather ineffective way to do that too! If Russia wanted to publically measure the size of it's global schlong, there are better, safer ways to do it.

But hey if Russia wants to gamble on when the next Su-24 gets blown out of the sky or crashes into something, it can go right ahead.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm speculating, but it may be to distract from domestic weakness. This is something US presidents have been accused of in the past, too. When they don't bring the game domestically, they stir shit up abroad, send in the military and look like heroes as a result. Putin's Russia clearly is in trouble with the sanctions cutting into the economy. This could be just a show of bravado to give Russians something to feel good about while they endure the economical difficulties the country is facing.

I mean yeah exactly that's why. But it's amazing that Russia's leaders would even think that works. Bill Clinton was accused of doing JUST that with the cruise missile strikes on Afghanistan and Sudan in 1998 after Khobar Towers. Some quarters said he was trying to distract from the Monica Lewinsky scandal. But even in that environment, with the internet in it's infancy, nobody was "distracted" by it.

It's just incredible because unless you're a lonley housewife who is an extremely low information citizen - which by the way is Putin's core constituency - it'll never work.

[Slant]

So our border guards should start shooting illegal immigrants then? All 2 million of them, cause you know, lines?

NATO rules of engagement clearly have a time frame. The turkish planes were waiting in an ambush. They were unprovoked and they killed 1 Russian pilot. The fact that you are here defending the rabid killers is disgusting.

Come on, where is your creativity... you don't usually resort to cheap tricks like equating civilians with a fucking military airplane. That's really beneath even you. :P

Oh, and just to drive the point home... even if they were in ambush, their airspace, their rules. If you violate their airspace, you are at their mercy. That's how the game goes. Whinging about it like a baby won't change it.

[Cybran]

Come on, where is your creativity... you don't usually resort to cheap tricks like equating civilians with a fucking military airplane. That's really beneath even you. :P

How the fuck do we know they are not armed?

Whinging about it like a baby won't change it.

The turks will get theirs. 40% less tourists, diplomatic isolation, more expensive energy and Kurdistan.

With Turkey, Russia gambled on a country that could very well be as reckless as they are.

What happened after that? NATO ignored it's article 4 and 5. They dropped the Turks like a hot potato. Obama didn't even meet Erdogan last week, because he is fed up with the mad dog's antics.

That is how much your alliance is worth.

[HermanJackalope]

Crazy Russians...

[Berri]

On the other hand, the main reason that the United States has deployed a destroyer to the Baltic sea is to send a message to the Kremlin, so it's a bit ridiculous to cry foul when the other guy reciprocates.

[Crispin]

How the fuck do we know they are not armed?


What happened after that? NATO ignored it's article 4 and 5. They dropped the Turks like a hot potato. Obama didn't even meet Erdogan last week, because he is fed up with the mad dog's antics.

That is how much your alliance is worth.

Talk about an extreme case of grasping at straws.