Why don't refugees stay and fight

[Deleted]

Fight for what? Their country is in a civil war between a dictator and a terrorist.
Or should they fight for borders that they didn't even pick themselves?

A man's first responsibility should be the well-being and safety of his family.
Only keyboard-heroes want people to fight, die and sacrifice their family for some bullshit.

People that are willing to leave everything behind to live in our society are exactly the kind of people we need around here.
I'd say we drown a couple of hundred of these far-right idiots that cheer when refugees die and we give their welfare to the refugees until they get a job.

You're calling me an idiot? I've been made far right because of fools like you who keep denying there's no problem arising in Europe. 1 migrant = no problem, 10 = no problem, 10 million and counting? That sounds like more of a problem, because they take their (women hating) culture with them and don't want to change for us. Because you know, they live among themselves in group anyways, why would they adapt to the Dutch culture? Take more and more of them and I'll speak to you in 50 years. Oh, and our forefathers who've been through hell and back in the Roman Empire through the Dark Ages, fought through World Wars would like to thank you aswell, they wouldn't want to see their continent been given away to Islam just because a bunch of leftist is too afraid (or probably just too ignorant) to see and tell the truth.

But keep telling we're the ignorant people. Time after time the right is (sadly) right again, and more come to the right but there's still a bunch of people who are just too proud to give in. And I mean that's your right to do that. Doesn't make you look any less stupid though. You know, I'd love if we could all be as left as we want. But that's not the world we live in right now, maybe we could if we didn't import millions of muslims but right now there's no turning back.

[JohnBrown1917]

Why did the jews not just stay behind in Germany and fight the Nazi regime?

[Deleted]

The definition of the UN is a bit on the broad side. That's not what I'm aiming at. I'm aiming at legal consequences of their classifications. See, a refugee in itself is not someone who will take away jobs. A refugee in itself will be sent back once the situation in his home country is resolved to a peaceful state. Asylum seekers are a different breed and it's harder to just deport them back to wherever they're from. There are conditions that have to be met and you have to formally deny their application, thus setting them back into either refugee status or completely denying them a permit to stay in Germany. And so on and so forth.

There's an entire field dedicated to immigraton and all the connected topics. And you're the first in over a year, the FIRST on this forum actually trying to talk about how it actually works. So thank you for that.

Germany doesn't want to have just anyone become a permanent citizen. Why would we? If you're from England, sure why not, British people are just as compatible with us as Austrians, if you ignore the language. But some goatherder from Syria or Afghanistan? No thanks, you'd have to present pretty strong reasons why we should let you in, because chances are that you're just draining our wallet.

Now, if you have a good reason, and having the home country torn apart by war is a good reason, then sure, let us help you. We're not assholes. But please, if your home situation gets resolved, kindly fuck off back to where you came until you actually bring assets to the table. We have enough asylum seekers to clean all the toilets in Germany, we don't need more.

Edit: Although refugees have options to work but with limits in germany druing the temporary stay period, I was wrong that slant said they have, i probably got confused with another german poster but can't be bothered to look back any further.
"See, a refugee in itself is not someone who will take away jobs. "
Slightly misleading. You said that they have possibility to work during their temporary allowed stay, but there are restrictions...this is similar to Netherlands. What you mean is because they won’t be permanently staying in Germany they won’t permanently take away jobs and they possibly can’t take away full time jobs at all.

What i'm reading is were of similar minds of the desired outcome. Where we are different is our perception of reality. This leads into a slight distortion of your claims that could be misleading on our different expected future.
A slight history lesson about Netherlands. Even though I was still a bit too young than, Netherlands had a similar system as Germany where after it's safe to return they must go back.
However what happened in Netherlands was there was always another process to go through to apply for staying (3 chances or so) which resulted in them being here for over 7-12 years. Because there were so many chances and some many applied each process took very long. It was very hard to send them back because they refused to comply. Than the emotional arguments came.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1979348-Why-don-t-refugees-stay-and-fight/page43?p=39807072#post39807072


In the end the emotional argument won. I could see the aspect of okay government messed up lets clear up the back log and make the process better. I think it was because of this that we probably added the law that after 5 years they can apply for permanent stay. This happened somewhere between 2000-2006 I think. I'm not sure if the Bosnians were included in this or if it was during a time when we were still easy on the subject. The 5 years is ridiculous because it basically means you caved in and once you give a hand you give an arm.

But based on this and the Bosnian story that no matter if you have a time limit and then permanant stay (netherlands) or no time limit (germany) I think the outcome will probably be the same that when the moment arrives the majority wants to stay and it will also happen. I hope you'll remember what I said in this post and then 8 years down the road see if I was right.
Maybe you could look up to what happened with the bosnians in germany or other mass refugees / immigrants from one country.

There's an entire field dedicated to immigration and all the connected topics. And you're the first in over a year, the FIRST on this forum actually trying to talk about how it actually works. So thank you for that.

Thanks for the compliment, much appreciated I like how in our conversation we figured out that our long term goal is the same. I tend to do this when I keep talking to someone but it takes a lot of effort. Our conversation is very good.
Most of my stuff is memory and quick google to find some answer. I looked some stuff up before this because not a single politician I heard talked about what happens long term if the refugees would be permanent citizens or not. All I heard was educating them for integration which implied they were and then found that 5 year law in the Netherlands.

The problem is going into detail with arguments without going really deep into research papers creates an nihilistic standpoint because you're not sure if one valid argument weighs more than the other valid argument. For a very long time I went along with this nihilistic way but it results in entities doing what they want so I no longer accept this. Because of this I’m somewhat supportive of the crude rude stupid complaining message against immigrants and refugee or about other subjects as well. Even though I don't like how it's done and I understand that you and others are very annoyed by it. But you can't also expect everyone to be politically intellectual in putting down every argument properly.
And arguing against them also support the other side...I see this happen with more than just immigration which is a shame because people have the same goal but are fighting against each other.
Although I have to admit it can be too hateful aswell which if it got empowered long term could be scary, but that’s another conversation.

[JohnBrown1917]

But keep telling we're the ignorant people. Time after time the right is (sadly) right again, and more come to the right but there's still a bunch of people who are just too proud to give in. And I mean that's your right to do that. Doesn't make you look any less stupid though. You know, I'd love if we could all be as left as we want. But that's not the world we live in right now, maybe we could if we didn't import millions of muslims but right now there's no turning back.

Not all left-wing, or even moderate, parties are in favour of open borders, you know.

[shimerra]

Most of the people calling those folks scum wondering why they didn't stay and fight would be the same people pissing themselves silly or contemplating suicide if they had to go without internet for a week.

[Damajin]

No, extremists.
They should treat neo-Nazi's the same as people from ISIS.

You can't do much for your family if they are dead and so are you. There is no reason to stay.
Unless, of course, you're a keyboard warrior with a 14/3 KD-ratio that would knife the entire ISIS-team.
But real life is not a video game.

Please don't use that quote.
It was to warn against Nazism and the far right.
It's painful to see people use that to defend far-right opinions.

Rofl.

I'm definitely not a keyboard warrior, I've actually served in the military and trained others to do so as well.

I'll use whatever quote I like, as it's applicable. I don't care if it's painful, so is the truth.

Those people should stand and fight instead of running and expecting others to put roofs over their heads and food in their bellies.

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Not all left-wing, or even moderate, parties are in favour of open borders, you know.

That's good to know actually, I'd like to see examples if you know of any without having to dig too much.

[Vector Sigma]

Why do they not fight to make their own countries better rather than coming to the west and try and turn western countries into the shitholes they come from.

A lot of blood was given to make the west great as it is today. These people and countries need to go through the same process instead of moving their problem onto peaceful countries.

Because they're freeloading cowards who don't believe enough in their religion, their beliefs, or their country to defend it at any cost.

I have zero sympathy for any able-bodied male running away rather than staying and putting together a resistance. Even the French managed to do that during WWII for fuck's sake. The French. <just gestures to reiterate>

[JohnBrown1917]

That's good to know actually, I'd like to see examples if you know of any without having to dig too much.

the SP(socialist party)
The PVV(moderate/left leaning on economic issues, in favour of the welfare).

Probably a bunch of other moderate or left-wing economic parties in Europa, but I only follow a few Dutch parties.

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Those people should stand and fight instead of running and expecting others to put roofs over their heads and food in their bellies.

Just out of curiosity, did you feel the same about the jews fleeing Germany in WWII?

[announced]

If this happened in Canada, and we had a tyrannical dictator for a leader, and civil war broke out, I wouldn't flee to the states, I would instead join the rebels help the cause. family Women and children under 14, can be exempt from fighting. Everyone else fights. There is little excuse for cowardice.

I find the whole refugee crisis embarrassing tbh, most of the EU refugees crossed not one not two not 3 but 4 countries in order to run to the welfare haven in Germany/Sweden. I believe this breaks some rule, aren't refugees supposed to apply for asylum in the first country that isn't currently at war?

Most of the poorer countries were glad not to accept refugees and waived them through the borders, as long as they weren't their problem who cares right?
I see thousands of able bodied adult males aged 18-30 that could be fighting against ISIS, and instead they running away to welfare land.
Germany made a mistake by inviting over 1M refugees, a more reasonable number would be how many houses they have that aren't currently occupied, maybe 100k tops? when the refugees arrive they wouldn't be put in tents, they could live in nice accommodations. Currently Germany/Sweden are well on their way to becoming 3rd world countries, because of their politicians the people will suffer.

the SP(socialist party)
The PVV(moderate/left leaning on economic issues, in favour of the welfare).

Probably a bunch of other moderate or left-wing economic parties in Europa, but I only follow a few Dutch parties.

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Just out of curiosity, did you feel the same about the jews fleeing Germany in WWII?

many jews did fight the Nazis, lots of them died but most of them fought regardless of the consequences.

and for people saying what if you dont have guns? well use knives? dont have knifes? well use bricks/ pipes/ anything you can get your hands on, create a distraction and try taking down 1-2 soldiers at a time, get their guns and you are on your way to being armed.

[Super Friendly Kitty Cat]

Most of the people calling those folks scum wondering why they didn't stay and fight would be the same people pissing themselves silly or contemplating suicide if they had to go without internet for a week.

Thank you for your wild and hyperbolic speculation.

[Deleted]

the SP(socialist party)
The PVV(moderate/left leaning on economic issues, in favour of the welfare).

Probably a bunch of other moderate or left-wing economic parties in Europa, but I only follow a few Dutch parties.

SP? really are you sure. I know Groenlinks and PVDA are very open towards immigrants with the reason because of their ideals, this included belgium PVDA. Guess ill do some digging on SP.

PVV: often is describe as rightwing. But it's an odd populist party with both right ideals and left wing babyboomer ideals. It's not really working on getting things really done more screaming stuff to get votes. It is somewhat corperate however, to my knowledge the party leader Wilders gets support from odd forgeign places and he's surpsingly queit around TTIP and Ukrain deal eventhough his voters are al against those.
But one thing you can account is it's consistancy against immigration and strongest standpoint against it. So a good party if you that's the most important issue for you.

Awww look how civil you are, actively encouraging the drowning of people you disagree with.

Your second paragraph is the hallmark of a rootless, foundationless person. You won't be able to do much for the well being and safety of your family if you're a runner. What is it they always say? First they came for the X and I said nothing, then they came for the Y and I still said nothing.....

Eventually you run out of places to run. Better to stand in a place that is particularly and completely yours and fight.

Not particular this post but overal. Your really pushing it and going to far in your style.

[JohnBrown1917]

many jews did fight the Nazis, lots of them died but most of them fought regardless of the consequences.

and for people saying what if you dont have guns? well use knives? dont have knifes? well use bricks/ pipes/ anything you can get your hands on, create a distraction and try taking down 1-2 soldiers at a time, get their guns and you are on your way to being armed.

And a lot of them fled, or should the other countries also have rejected them all?

[Wells]

many jews did fight the Nazis, lots of them died but most of them fought regardless of the consequences.

The ones who fought died and nothing came of their deaths. Those who fled had at least a chance of surviving.

[JohnBrown1917]

If this happened in Canada, and we had a tyrannical dictator for a leader, and civil war broke out, I wouldn't flee to the states, I would instead join the rebels help the cause. family Women and children under 14, can be exempt from fighting. Everyone else fights. There is little excuse for cowardice.

Yes, i'm sure it'll work out to let those with bad motor skills, the physical disabled, the mentally disabled fight would work out great.

and for people saying what if you dont have guns? well use knives? dont have knifes? well use bricks/ pipes/ anything you can get your hands on, create a distraction and try taking down 1-2 soldiers at a time, get their guns and you are on your way to being armed.

Those without combat skill could not pull that off, whats the point of a pointless death?

[Easo]

many jews did fight the Nazis, lots of them died but most of them fought regardless of the consequences.

and for people saying what if you dont have guns? well use knives? dont have knifes? well use bricks/ pipes/ anything you can get your hands on, create a distraction and try taking down 1-2 soldiers at a time, get their guns and you are on your way to being armed.

You have watched way too many movies. Like, way, WAY too many.
P.S.
Jews who fought mostly died and achieved nothing. Running, however, actually did save people.

[Melkorr]

Oh bearded one. I have experienced the horrors of war even though I didn't/couldn't do much about it.
To explain it simply: This isn't a war for Syria anymore.
Every arms salesperson is just overjoyed with the war in Syria and all countries have their boys.
Syrian's wouldn't be fighting for Syria, they'll be fighting a proxy war for someone else who doesn't give a damn about their country.
A part of my family has fought for a long part of a 15 year civil war, and another part of my family just left for other opportunities and they're now the most successful people I know.

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Because they're freeloading cowards who don't believe enough in their religion, their beliefs, or their country to defend it at any cost.

I have zero sympathy for any able-bodied male running away rather than staying and putting together a resistance. Even the French managed to do that during WWII for fuck's sake. The French. <just gestures to reiterate>

Have you ever seen war? I don't think so. So please unless you've experienced something similar to the Syrians, don't pretend like you know.

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False.
False.
False.
False.
Reported.
And photoshopped.

Please continue the high quality posting as long as you can!
With people like you we don't even need arguments.

Hahahah, awesome. I loved the slow but good burn you just dropped on him.

[Deleted]

the SP(socialist party)
The PVV(moderate/left leaning on economic issues, in favour of the welfare).

Probably a bunch of other moderate or left-wing economic parties in Europa, but I only follow a few Dutch parties.

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Just out of curiosity, did you feel the same about the jews fleeing Germany in WWII?

Don't act stupid here please. The SP is the only example you can come up with. And just because the PVV is left on economics doesn't mean they're any less right on a lot of stuff. Every text book you pull open the PVV is considered far right so keep telling yourself PVV is left. Every party has left/right leaning issues, doesn't make them any less right/left. So go you! You got one example. And instead of the SP we have the VVD who is considered right by most (or is that a left party aswell?) who is in power when the current migration happened and literally did NOTHING. So for the one party you found who is against open borders, I got one right one who is actually IN CHARGE who doesn't seem to care.

And ofcourse some leftist parties will be against open borders, everyone has different policies they want to handle. It doesn't give away the fact that 99% of the parties who want closed borders are considered right.

[Slant]

"See, a refugee in itself is not someone who will take away jobs. "
Slightly misleading. You said that they have possibility to work during their temporary allowed stay, but there are restrictions...this is similar to Netherlands. What you mean is because they won’t be permanently staying in Germany they won’t permanently take away jobs and they possibly can’t take away full time jobs at all.

Sorry, mate. But this will be the end of our conversation. I have decidedly not said they are allowed to work temporarily. In fact, I have pointed out the exact opposite, namely that they cannot work as refugees. And then you proceed to say "What you mean..."

I know pretty fucking well what I mean, I do not need you to explain to me what I mean. I mean that refugees cannot work. But there are options and ways for them to try and reach a more permanent stay in Germany and then they'd also get options to work. But those ways are not as easy to take as everyone thinks.

I'm sorry, I really had hopes with you, but you're just like the rest of them apparently... No, I haven't bothered to read the rest, since you haven't bothered to read my posts apparently. See ya.

[shise]

Fight with what?

With their brain and their hands, just as Spanish people did, or Italian, or the many others of the kind did in the past when our dictators were KILLING US. As soon as the international community saw it, we had some sort of support.

It is not acceptable to take in 20 to 30 years old males with stone age mentality about woman and then give them classes on "how to treat woman"... I mean, are you serious Scandinavia?

[Deleted]

I wouldn't fight for some third world shithole. I would however fight for my own country. A country where my own lineage has stood proud for a thousand years. I don't expect some nomadic tribesmen with no pride, dignity, heritage or lineage to understand what i'm talking about. I understand they will be the first to abandon my country when things turn sour even though it has given them everything.
I've served my country domestically and internationally and I've seen the realities of war. It hasn't made my convictions waiver, only strengthen them.

Fight or don't fight, it doesn't matter to me. I will take care of my own and help those that are unable to defend themselves. I'll be damned if i will let some foreign invaders rape and pillage my land, not while i am strong enough to stand up to them.