[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Deleted]

Right now the way blessings work, feels a bit too clunky and I pretty much dislike that they do not add "flavor" to your gameplay! I wish blizzard would consider utilizing the Diablo 2 Paladin aura mechanic! The aura mechanic offers a large new toolkit for defensive and offensive abilities that is way more engaging then it is the case with the current blessing system! I know Blessing kind of resemble the aura system but the variations you had in Diablo 2 were for more diverse than it is the case now!

It passively affects either the caster and all nearby allies, or all nearby enemies. There are two types of Auras: Defensive Auras and Offensive Auras. Generally, Defensive Auras affect allies, while Offensive ones put debuffs on foes.

I will further expand on this with examples from Diablo 2 ... I will give a short recap what most of them did! Of course they need to be adapted to the play style of WoW! Remember only one aura can be active at a time!

The defensive auras (I'll leave most of the resistance auras out, since they'll do not apply for wow) Defiance, Cleansing, Vigor, Meditation, Redemption and Salvation.

Defiance: Plain bonus to defense stacking other similar effects
Cleansing: decreasing poison effect with heal over time effect without any mana cost.
Vigor: increasing run/walk speed & stamina regeneration
Meditation: increasing mana regeneration
Redemption: Converts enemy corpses into Mana & Life for the user. Corpses are converted regardless of whether the user delivered the killing blow themselves.
Salvation: increases all elemental resistances for all party members

The offensive auras are Might, Holy Fire, Thorns, Blessed Aim, Concentration, Holy Freeze, Holy Shock, Sanctuary, Fanaticism, Conviction.
Might: Increase damage dealt by the Paladin and his allies.
Holy Fire: Periodically does Fire damage to nearby enemies.
Thorns: Enemies take damage when they cause melee damage to party members.
Blessed Aim: Increases Attack Rating (attack speed).
Concentration: Increases damage dealt and reduces the chance of being interrupted during an attack.
Holy Freeze: Periodically slows enemies nearby and deals Cold damage.
Holy Shock: Periodically does Lightning damage to enemies within a radius.
Sanctuary: Damages and does knockback to the Undead.
Fanaticism: Increases your Damage, Attack Rate and Attack Rating. Increases Damage for all party members.
Conviction: Reduces enemy Defense and Resistances.

In my opinion I would prefer a toolkit of these kind of auras which I would swap depending on circumstances. They offer a lot of versatility and probably do put the paladin into a position of a "desired" class in raiding and pvp environments.

[Ulthane]

@Nuin lolololol

I try to be as neutral as possible. I try not to be negative and people going at each other back and forth won't help things. I just want the spec to work and be fun : (

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Vigor technically could be a haste thing by how it sounds alone.

I try to be as neutral as possible. I try not to be negative and people going at each other back and forth won't help things. I just want the spec to work and be fun : (

We all do but as this whole megathread has shown. We have different ideas. I'm worried for Ret but I have anxiety issues in general so I tend to get more nervous then I need to be

Someone must take up the burden to have a big mouth and be critical about such things once in awhile, Storm can only do so much alone - even more if it's not without reason.

Scrape the flesh of Blizz devs

[Snegovik]

@Nuin lolololol

I try to be as neutral as possible. I try not to be negative and people going at each other back and forth won't help things. I just want the spec to work and be fun : (

I just wanted spec to be feared and respected in Rated-PvP like it used to in Wrath, hell u can give Ret a pink skirt and pony to ride around with a sparking fairy wand instead of 2h weapon but as far as we will dominate battlefield while being a cupcake and we can carry 3s like some dps classes can, i am totally fine (thats when xmog will come in handy =).)

[Ulthane]

I just wanted spec to be feared and respected in Rated-PvP like it used to in Wrath, hell u can give Ret a pink skirt and pony to ride around with a sparking fairy wand instead of 2h weapon but as far as we will dominate battlefield while being a cupcake and we can carry 3s like some dps classes can, i am totally fine (thats when xmog will come in handy =).)

Like hell I can understand low Mobilty, thats life. But we need amaking defenses. Like
-Hand of Light
-Low cd Shield of Vengeance
-Instant cast Flash of Light
-Mobility talents providing cc reductions
-Buffing Divine Intervention
-Overall damage buffs
-Divine Hammer with lower cd
-Blade of Wrath with more damage

List goes on, but the proper tweaks and actual talent fixes with this current model CAN do that.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Honestly, if we have to have mobility as a weakness in PVP. Fine, but don't do that in PVE.

[Snegovik]

Like hell I can understand low Mobilty, thats life. But we need amaking defenses. Like
-Hand of Light
-Low cd Shield of Vengeance
-Instant cast Flash of Light
-Mobility talents providing cc reductions
-Buffing Divine Intervention
-Overall damage buffs
-Divine Hammer with lower cd
-Blade of Wrath with more damage

List goes on, but the proper tweaks and actual talent fixes with this current model CAN do that.

I agree with all of your list but the instant heals, i don't think we should have instant heals, since it will lower the value of our Defensive cds, blizzard will say "you have Op instant heals (that never work in rated pvp with all the debuffs and ppl training u) hence we will give you one big nothing for ur D-cds". We need an old version of SS or even better low cd Shield of Vengeance or even % base hp heal, but i was always against instant heals, even on live i use SS both in rated/casual pvp.

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Honestly, if we have to have mobility as a weakness in PVP. Fine, but don't do that in PVE.

I doubt any1 wants to be a handicapped turtle sitting in every snare in PvP, every1 much rather have high dmg/high mobility/ok survival rather than what blizzard is trying to force on us this coming xpac.

[Ulthane]

@Snegovik oh at this point I don't think it's op. Not at all. If it is then sure not instant. But PvE it will be a boon and fit and in pvp there are so many things that can harm us it wont be op in that scheme of things.

[Snegovik]

@Snegovik oh at this point I don't think it's op. Not at all. If it is then sure not instant. But PvE it will be a boon and fit and in pvp there are so many things that can harm us it wont be op in that scheme of things.

Gotta see for balancing to be completed to tell for sure, i was just speaking from personal experience: i hate instant heals =).

P.S. I noticed some ppl take few posts a bit too serious and close to heart, just try to understand that all of us here care about spec, and we want to make it viable (not even OP) and frustration comes from Blizzard's ignorance, hence translates to this forum. Even posts made by Storm are full of kindness and fairy sparkling (and hold good points/knowledge, not being sarcastic here) compare to aggressive, rude and full on nub-clueless comments people leave on PvP forums :P, so trust me Ret forum is one of the most civil discussions out there.

[Ulthane]

But let's be blunt, any spec, any class that has mobility issues like us need great defenses and mitigation as well. This needs to be a universal trait with any class that has a hard time moving about.

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Gotta see for balancing to be completed to tell for sure, i was just speaking from personal experience: i hate instant heals =).

P.S. I noticed some ppl take few posts a bit too serious and close to heart, just try to understand that all of us here care about spec, and we want to make it viable (not even OP) and frustration comes from Blizzard's ignorance, hence translates to this forum. Even posts made by Storm are full of kindness and fairy sparkling compare to aggressive and full on nub-clueless comments people leave on PvP forums :P, so trust me Ret forum is one of the most civil discussions out there.

This, I don't want to raise pitchforks at you guys. I think all of us are rightfully frustrated equally here and we all want the same thing.

[Reghame]

I just wanted spec to be feared and respected in Rated-PvP like it used to in Wrath, hell u can give Ret a pink skirt and pony to ride around with a sparking fairy wand instead of 2h weapon but as far as we will dominate battlefield while being a cupcake and we can carry 3s like some dps classes can, i am totally fine (thats when xmog will come in handy =).)

Thats the thing though, ATM ret IS highly respected in alpha PVP. Were one of VERY FEW specs that can deal with DH and fury warriors. Despite their healing "nerfs" they are still highly overtunned and even then ret can still handle them very well. know how many mages i run into arena on alpha and say fuck my life??? zero. Why? because if i get to them and have my ally lock em down they are dead because the damage output is insane. Might it be overtunned? perhaps. does the low mobility = high damage thing come into play here? it certainly does.

know what happens to current ret with double freedoms 45% sprint with nearly 100% uptime and instant heals vs a mage? i say fuck my life every time and get my ass HANDED to me. things are different in PVP now, low mobility is not much of a problem if at all now because we dont really need it in this regard.
For PVE however mobility could be slightly changed but blizzard is working on this, a 45 second CD steed attests to this because its basically just like ret lie's mobility when you talent for it ( just like on live rets have 0 base mobility yet no one complains about it for some reason) the only difference is that for PVP you dont have overbearing ranged attacks as a melee and move 1.5 times people speed all the time now.

and ulthane, even if you did mention hand of light in your posts guess what, im not reading it because its a "this is how i would change ret" type of post. Blizzard will not look at these posts regularly and will literally take nothing away from them.

If anyone here has ever worked in the service section of the labor force ( aka things like retail and the like) or have dealt with ANY form of customer, you know that whenever someone like this tells you that you or your company you work for does X y Z wrong or that your shit and thus rant on how THEY would do something different, every SINGLE one of you in this field of work immediately goes into the mind set of "well fuck you too, you dont know whats going on why should i listen to this assclown" blizzard employees and developers namely are humans too and WILL have the same mindset as you. They will say well fuck this guy im not even gona read this post im going to do what i want. Even if you make something kina cool and thematic its going right into the dumpster.

[Snegovik]

Thats the thing though, ATM ret IS highly respected in alpha PVP. Were one of VERY FEW specs that can deal with DH and fury warriors. Despite their healing "nerfs" they are still highly overtunned and even then ret can still handle them very well. know how many mages i run into arena on alpha and say fuck my life??? zero. Why? because if i get to them and have my ally lock em down they are dead because the damage output is insane. Might it be overtunned? perhaps. does the low mobility = high damage thing come into play here? it certainly does.

know what happens to current ret with double freedoms 45% sprint with nearly 100% uptime and instant heals vs a mage? i say fuck my life every time and get my ass HANDED to me. things are different in PVP now, low mobility is not much of a problem if at all now because we dont really need it in this regard.
For PVE however mobility could be slightly changed but blizzard is working on this, a 45 second CD steed attests to this because its basically just like ret lie's mobility when you talent for it ( just like on live rets have 0 base mobility yet no one complains about it for some reason) the only difference is that for PVP you dont have overbearing ranged attacks as a melee and move 1.5 times people speed all the time now.

and ulthane, even if you did mention hand of light in your posts guess what, im not reading it because its a "this is how i would change ret" type of post. Blizzard will not look at these posts regularly and will literally take nothing away from them.

If anyone here has ever worked in the service section of the labor force ( aka things like retail and the like) or have dealt with ANY form of customer, you know that whenever someone like this tells you that you or your company you work for does X y Z wrong or that your shit and thus rant on how THEY would do something different, every SINGLE one of you in this field of work immediately goes into the mind set of "well fuck you too, you dont know whats going on why should i listen to this assclown" blizzard employees and developers namely are humans too and WILL have the same mindset as you. They will say well fuck this guy im not even gona read this post im going to do what i want. Even if you make something kina cool and thematic its going right into the dumpster.

Reg, yes you right currently Ret maybe is feared in PvP (and indeed Ret does pretty well vs DH, i have seen some good arena videos), but the thing is Ret currently decent due to our high dmg out put and this is it, if blizzard will take it away (which they most likely will, since nubs world wide will unite in their tears if Ret hits hard), Ret spec will be left with nothing to make us stand tall in Rated PvP among other classes. Hence, a lot of people are concerned right now about it, they want Ret to have two strong suits aka dmg/mobility or dmg/survival instead of putting all eggs in one basket= high dmg.

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P.S. yes a company should not simply accept all wishes of their customers and agree with what this company is doing wrong. but at the same time, we are the customers, a great company can give customers the product which they desire, not a product which company thinks its customers need. Take an example Under-Armour a founder was a football player and he actually knew/listened to what his teammate said what would be amazing to have in their fitness gear, and now look Under-Armor is one of the most recognized/leading brands for sport-wear.

[Ulthane]

@Reghame Well I'll take your word for it. If this is the difference you are seeing then sure. But please note that I said if the instant Flash of Light is op then don't make it instant. It was a thought of if it was needed, nothing more. I just wish I had alpha so I could try it myself and give better feedback but all I can say is based off what the testers say for the most part.

Now mobility in PvE is going to be a problem regardless of what you say. I've done enough mythic to know some mechanics you just need mobility unews they intent to tune stuff around that.

Also what I posted was feedback not of the sense of how I would design it but notice the issues you guys have mentioned on this build and say here is how it could be tuned.

[Kithelle]

And I'd still take BoW over Virtue's Blade for the sole reason that it feelsbetter, as I'd do with Final Verdict even if Blizz would give Exe S a flat 3000% ap coefficient. Yes, I'm that dumb if the design of a talent is shit imo.
If my own comprehension and intuition tells me the design is utter crap IT IS utter crap, and as long as I get the feeling it is shit it stays shit, even if someone tries 24/7 long to change my mind about it. Likewise, if some random people with alpha access give off the feeling they give a fuck about my humble opinion just because feeling all high and mighty due to having access - you guess it? - I give a fuck about their opinion aswell. Their opinion is theirs, and just because they get hard on something doesn't mean other players HAVE TO feel the same way.

Anyway, this doesn't concern me anymore. Due to the last couple weeks I've decided for myself to stay the hell away from maining my Ret in Legion if the design stays that way - I don't feel like riding the rollercoaster again this time and may only use him for enchanting and soloplay. I like the design of Fury and Unholy, beta will show which one will get to be my main but imo it's the more secure way, at least for myself. That aswell is the reason why I'm that silent for the last couple days.
@Reghame
If everything is set in stone everytime, why even bother giving feedback? If what you say rings all true, then why should the devs bother to make even minor changes? I mean, they should then of course know it better, even better than alpha players, or not?
And if no one suggests such changes, from where should the devs get inspiration everytime? Other games, only from themselves, or maybe from wildly writing up something and throwing darts at it? Nope...
As much as it may annoy you, but a huge pile of actual abilities in Blizzard Games came from wild suggestions - the likes you regard as "pointless" and "doesn't help anyone" - crazy people like us actually made. They just got handed to other classes and not to Ret.

I don't always take what is *best*, I generally go for what I enjoy mostly...but if there is one huge clear choice I may go for it even if it isn't the most enjoyable...like I'm going to skip Ex S...but I also PvP and in PvP that could be HoPo completely wasted...at least if it were a DoT again and not just a delayed burst I could see use in it.

BoJ and BoW aren't really that much different...well I mean mechanically they're different but well aren't whole different when it comes to function and effect...I'd rather take BoW in PvP for the faster HoPo generation...but if BoJ is clearly superior, especially with VB...I may stick with BoJ.

[Reghame]

I will reiterate this because its sort of lost in the last post.
Ret on live has ONE baseline mobility tools, may this be slows or sprints. Ret only has freedom baseline.
Ret on Alpha has TWO baseline mobility tool, this is Hand of Hindrance AND freedom.

Ret on live has ONE available choice of mobility at all times, This is between 3 choices of mobility, pursuit of justice (15% boost all the time going up to 30% with holypower) speed of light (45 second CD 8 second sprint of 70%) and Long Arm of the Law ( 3 second 45% sprint on judgement which has a cooldown of 6 seconds - haste rating %)

Ret on alpha has ONE choice of mobility in PVE at all times, and TWO for pvp. This is in the choices of Seal of Light ( 20% movement increase for 20,40,60,80,100 seconds based on holypower spent) and Steed Charge ( 45 second cooldown sprint of 100% for 3 seconds) for PVE.
For PVP ret can choose the above
Ret on Alpha can also choose an ADDITIONAL 20% movement speed increase on freedom should they choose to.

Honestly, ret mobility is not THAT much different than ret on live. The ONLY difference is really for PVP which is long arm of the law and long arm is such a staple for it because of how much CONSTANT mobility you have, just like everyone else.
for PVE you basically ALWAYS use speed of light and steed charge is basically almost the same in terms of movement because longer duration movements are not needed, you need to move out of something quick typically, not for very long periods of time. an example of this is archimond shackles, they spawn and then you move quickly, if it takes you longer than 3-4 seconds either you or the raid is dead.

This on top of the mobility cuts from others on alpha this is why i dont see it as a problem honestly. Could it be better? always. certain tools could always be stronger. Would i like my damage in PVP ( and possibly pve) be cut down for it? never.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Also Ret doesn't have Pursuit of Justice either. They should of kept it for a mobility tool or at least made it baseline.

[Ulthane]

@Reghame Fair enough when you put it that way. Then mobility isn't an issue. Which brings up the following.
-Do you think our defensives are ok
-Do you think our AoE is okay given the mastery
-Do you think our talents are okay concept wise.

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Also thoughts on Echo animation?

[Reghame]

Reg, yes you right currently Ret maybe is feared in PvP (and indeed Ret does pretty well vs DH, i have seen some good arena videos), but the thing is Ret currently decent due to our high dmg out put and this is it, if blizzard will take it away (which they most likely will, since nubs world wide will unite in their tears if Ret hits hard), Ret spec will be left with nothing to make us stand tall in Rated PvP among other classes. Hence, a lot of people are concerned right now about it, they want Ret to have two strong suits aka dmg/mobility or dmg/survival instead of putting all eggs in one basket= high dmg.

- - - Updated - - -

P.S. yes a company should not simply accept all wishes of their customers and agree with what this company is doing wrong. but at the same time, we are the customers, a great company can give customers the product which they desire, not a product which company thinks its customers need. Take an example Under-Armour a founder was a football player and he actually knew/listened to what his teammate said what would be amazing to have in their fitness gear, and now look Under-Armor is one of the most recognized/leading brands for sport-wear.

i understand that sentiment, but this can be said with every spec and class out there as well. Oh demonhunters have OP mobility and damage but their defensives suck. what happens if they gut either of their damage or mobility? demonhunters will have nothing to stand on in rated PVP.
at the end of the day its a question of if blizzard deems it too much of a problem and if the community as a whole hates it. Its highly possible ret will NEVER see the high levels of rated of PVP simply because of the community and not what is put in the ret toolkit and thats a sad truth you have to deal with. you can give ret the ability to do damage all the time, high mobility and couple defensives and heals. but that does not mean they will be good "cough cough live ret cough"

As for your underarmor comparison, this is in the ballpark but not really close honestly. a NEW and RISING company can use ideas from consumers and see if they can make something out of it. This does not mean that league of legends would suddenly say, ya know what? our community is right, barn, the sentient barn is a GREAT champion idea! lets make it! ( look up what this is if you dont get the reference). This is due to a couple of this, may it be copyright, community hate for said copy, power egos, or just the idea does not fit the theme maybe.
im not saying underarmor is a bad company for taking ideas from feedback ( i like their shirts a lot for workouts and just at home wear honestly) , just that the concept is actually not the same.


This is why i think if ret needs attention ( and it will get it) you need to look things that fundamentally dont work within the theme or things that clash directly with one another.
Equality is something that we can look at still as example. Although it DOES very much fit the retribution theme as a whole and that dealing "tons of damage" for being hurt sounds cool, the way it PREFORMS this action is very lack luster and is something you actually do not want AS A TALENT. i for one have posted on this in the past, wether or not it was looked at is another issue entirely but as it stands equality has directly clashed with their insight on how PVE works ( taking damage to do more damage is wrong) and it's use is very fine in PVP, but to take up a limited PVE talent for it is wrong.

Feed back like THIS is something we need, not equality is shit and will be shit forever. ( something that is basically posted in every page in this thread)

[Ulthane]

Also with PvE mobility do you feel as it is now we will be okay on mechanics like the dance stuff on Mythic arch or seed mechanics on Fellord or void drops on gorefiend.

[ruiizu]

I will reiterate this because its sort of lost in the last post.
Ret on live has ONE baseline mobility tools, may this be slows or sprints. Ret only has freedom baseline.
Ret on Alpha has TWO baseline mobility tool, this is Hand of Hindrance AND freedom.

Ret on live has ONE available choice of mobility at all times, This is between 3 choices of mobility, pursuit of justice (15% boost all the time going up to 30% with holypower) speed of light (45 second CD 8 second sprint of 70%) and Long Arm of the Law ( 3 second 45% sprint on judgement which has a cooldown of 6 seconds - haste rating %)

Ret on alpha has ONE choice of mobility in PVE at all times, and TWO for pvp. This is in the choices of Seal of Light ( 20% movement increase for 20,40,60,80,100 seconds based on holypower spent) and Steed Charge ( 45 second cooldown sprint of 100% for 3 seconds) for PVE.
For PVP ret can choose the above
Ret on Alpha can also choose an ADDITIONAL 20% movement speed increase on freedom should they choose to.

Honestly, ret mobility is not THAT much different than ret on live. The ONLY difference is really for PVP which is long arm of the law and long arm is such a staple for it because of how much CONSTANT mobility you have, just like everyone else.
for PVE you basically ALWAYS use speed of light and steed charge is basically almost the same in terms of movement because longer duration movements are not needed, you need to move out of something quick typically, not for very long periods of time. an example of this is archimond shackles, they spawn and then you move quickly, if it takes you longer than 3-4 seconds either you or the raid is dead.

This on top of the mobility cuts from others on alpha this is why i dont see it as a problem honestly. Could it be better? always. certain tools could always be stronger. Would i like my damage in PVP ( and possibly pve) be cut down for it? never.

That's fine--I don't see eye to eye there because I don't like mobility being talented on Live either. I think there should be a basic movement ability for every class by default, and THEN talents can modify it or add additional options. I don't count Freedom as mobility, but if you're counting that you musn't forget we have Emancipate on Live and do not on Alpha, so our default kit is actually weakened by that. Also Seal of Justice is not a talent, so that's also default. Burden is a glyph that is also in Live but not Alpha.

But let's not split hairs. There's one thing that did occur to me while I was watching a video from Animefreak. Because we no longer have an Execute, that means our damage during the rest of the fight (especially in PvP) has to be higher because there's no more "low HP damage spike/execute phase" for us. So in a way that could be very beneficial for us in PvP.

Just please don't try to convince anyone here that mobility is a-okay. It's not. The change to Steed is a step in the right direction, but the change should be it being a baseline spell, not just a CD reduction. That's what we want and need (would also take back Turalyon's as baseline, or some type of charge).