[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Taeldorian]

Curious what they did to the 100 talents. Can't check alpha right now working OT tonight. From what I've read seems like they've done something to equality and holy wrath, don't have enough time to read about what they did right now so I'll just check alpha later and put my feedback on the forums

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It's been what, 3 builds without major changes to ret? Guess this is what we're getting for legion then huh?

Pfft, that's nothing. Warriors are going on their 4th-5th build without any major changes, and hardly any small tweaks as well, and fury still has glaring problems in pve. Either way though, glad we at least are getting looked at a little bit, we still have plenty of builds as well as more time to get our information out to the devs, just keep posting on the class forums so they continue to see the feedback.

No idea why Kalgan thinks equality is a fun ability. I've tried to think about it ever since his blue post but I still can't agree with anything he said, at all. If there's a fun ability that isn't optimal, that's awesome and some will choose it (I usually do things like that when my guild puts stuff on farm) so if that were the case it'd be cool, but equality promotes absolutely awful gameplay in pve (standing in fire), doubt it's going to change after Kalgan posted about it though.

[ruiizu]

A new thought about Equality: maybe a more "fair" version for pvp will be simply taking your hp + hp of the target (both friendly or enemy) adding both Health pools together and evenly deviding between two; hence, word Equality. This way it can be used as a utility (for tanks in PVE or FC/Healer in PvP) as well as vs your enemy without making it OP. So back to my example, if enemy is 100% hp and you are 10%, after you use Equality, both of you are at 55% hp. I think this version is the most fair one, without making it OP.

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P.S. I just feel like Ret is missing fun/useful interacting spells with other classes (we only have BOP/Freedoms which are boring) Hpals have Aura-Mastery, Warriors have HP shout, Rogues have smoke bomb, shammies have Lust, droods have Tranquility, priests have LifeGrip/mass dispel, Mages have Lust, even DHs got AOE 30% spell/physical attack evasions. I just want Paladin Dps class also bringing something useful and fun to the table (and no, greater blessings are not fun nor useful on a gran scale)

This basically is Pain Split from Pokemon. Sets your HP and target's HP equal at X + Y / 2. Works really great if your target has full life and you don't, and it can also backfire if you use it while you're at full life.

More interestingly: what if that was the spell, but you could ALSO use it on allies? Like you could heal or steal HP from allies (so long as they're in your party/raid)? Would be a really cool utility that could be used for damage or healing (or backfire if you do it wrong).

[Aeluron Lightsong]

It's intended that Mastery is a single-target DPS stat for Retribution Paladins, but that the Greater Judgment talent can extend that to AoE. It will be tuned to account for that. This is certainly not the first time that different stats have had wildly different values in different situations, and that's OK.

~Celestalon's words response to what Thete said.

I...am not even sure what to say.

[Lunavale]

So this means haste will be Ret's go to stat again right?

[Snegovik]

This basically is Pain Split from Pokemon. Sets your HP and target's HP equal at X + Y / 2. Works really great if your target has full life and you don't, and it can also backfire if you use it while you're at full life.

More interestingly: what if that was the spell, but you could ALSO use it on allies? Like you could heal or steal HP from allies (so long as they're in your party/raid)? Would be a really cool utility that could be used for damage or healing (or backfire if you do it wrong).

Yeh it can be used on a friendly target, this is what makes it a good utility since it can be not only used as an offensive spell but also to help our raid progression for example if tank at 5% hp and boss at 2% hp or in an RBG where your FC is 5% hp.

[PaladinBash]

If it was anyone but Kalgan behind it, I would assume Equality is simply a badly designed talent. Because it's Kalgan, I think it's a deliberately bad talent that he won't change because he hates Ret and always has. There's loads of creative ways to make the idea of it useful but again, the horse has been dead so long even the LK won't beat it.

Holy Wrath got a nice buff but it still has the main problem it always has had of being a cast time spell for melee. 1m CD is nice though. Means you can legitimately use it for some extra Holy Power in a couple of situations...and the animation is still cool as hell. I don't normally get a boner for animations but I want this ability to be good in some way for that alone.

[An-Tuirseach]

~Celestalon's words response to what Thete said.

I...am not even sure what to say.

So we're not meant to be competitive outside of single target damage? Do they not realize how stupid this sounds?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

It's worth noting that Fires of Justice does the same thing too. You generate holy power faster and therefore cast more divine storms than you otherwise would. Different damage talents will perform a bit differently in different situations, but in this case none of them are actually purely single-target or AE.

Kalgan strikes again.

[Anardel]

OK so we have the official answer now, Judgement debuff will never become a buff on ourselves because it's intended that Mastery won't work AoE if you don't pick Greater Judgement.
So we can now stop in our concerns about Mastery design, Judgement debuff and such. It feels like I said a couple hours ago: we're in the tuning phase and our design has ended.

[Lunavale]

Kalgan strikes again.

I sure hope it wasn't Kalgan that deleted Solsacra's post in the feedback thread.


...because "yikes" if it was.

[Temna]

I sure hope it wasn't Kalgan that deleted Solsacra's post in the feedback thread.


...because "yikes" if it was.

Oh so it wasnt just me who saw that post vanish, because it was a fair counterpoint to his argument.

[Crimsion]

What did it say? I missed it.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

OK so we have the official answer now, Judgement debuff will never become a buff on ourselves because it's intended that Mastery won't work AoE if you don't pick Greater Judgement.
So we can now stop in our concerns about Mastery design, Judgement debuff and such. It feels like I said a couple hours ago: we're in the tuning phase and our design has ended.

Still not convinced since Celestalon has still said tuning hasn't started in various posts.

I sure hope it wasn't Kalgan that deleted Solsacra's post in the feedback thread.


...because "yikes" if it was.

If you mean there were two two Solscra posts then yes that was not cool. IF not.. well his post is still there.

[Alindra]

~Celestalon's words response to what Thete said.

I...am not even sure what to say.

You know, if they go the distance and make us very strong at single target, I'm okay with that. I prefer greater flexibility (it's why I chose Paladin at release, because it could fit a lot of roles), but being being a specialist definitely has its benefits.

That being said, I see the tier being a real problem to balance. Yes, all the talents on that tier both have uses for ST and AoE, but I feel that Greater Judgment's benefits will outscale the others.

Fires of Justice - Faster CS CD (potentially more HP/min) and a 1 HP reduction proc. Con being you'll want to only use your HP during Judgment, so you could (haven't mathed it out) end up not needing the faster CD. The proc could overwrite itself, and it if it doesn't help us get an extra finisher in during a Judgment phase, it's kind of a wash. (6s debuff == 4 gcds at 0% haste, 1 is Judgment, 2 finishers, 1 builder). It looks like we'd need +25% haste in order to fit an extra GCD into Judgment (1.5 / 1.25 == 1.2s GCD, 1.2 * 5 == 6s).

Zeal - Hits harder and cleaves. That's all it does, though.

Greater Judgment - First, it causes Judgment to cleave w/o building up stacks. Second, since our mastery buffs Judgment damage, it's directly scaling it's cleave effect. (Of course, it has a longer cooldown than Zeal.) Secondly, it spreads the debuff making DS hit harder on affected targets (scaling effect #2). Finally, it allows greater flexibility in our rotation for ST (easier to pool & dump HP, also makes ES trivial to time).

I could be missing something, but I don't see that tier really being a choice.

[An-Tuirseach]

If you mean there were two two Solscra posts then yes that was not cool. IF not.. well his post is still there.

There were two, the one that's gone was a reply to kalgan.

[Temna]

What did it say? I missed it.

Something to the tune of even in the event of more HP generation for more Divine Storms it would be a waste without the greater judgment buff to make the most of it. It was more elegant but that was the jist i think.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Well the post isn't there which is odd. Guess we have to wait for Solscra to say something. Not a fan of how things are going at least with their interpretation.

[Snegovik]

If it was anyone but Kalgan behind it, I would assume Equality is simply a badly designed talent. Because it's Kalgan, I think it's a deliberately bad talent that he won't change because he hates Ret and always has. There's loads of creative ways to make the idea of it useful but again, the horse has been dead so long even the LK won't beat it.

Holy Wrath got a nice buff but it still has the main problem it always has had of being a cast time spell for melee. 1m CD is nice though. Means you can legitimately use it for some extra Holy Power in a couple of situations...and the animation is still cool as hell. I don't normally get a boner for animations but I want this ability to be good in some way for that alone.

Personally Wrath kind of bugs me, because it is a weaker version of DH's Eye Beam

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OK so we have the official answer now, Judgement debuff will never become a buff on ourselves because it's intended that Mastery won't work AoE if you don't pick Greater Judgement.
So we can now stop in our concerns about Mastery design, Judgement debuff and such. It feels like I said a couple hours ago: we're in the tuning phase and our design has ended.

I still think (or rather hope) that there is still time for Blizzard to change our judgement design (since they are still changing abilities/spells of other classes), hence lets just wait for some time... maybe (even though it is a very small chance) Blizzard will listen us and make judgement a Ret's self buff instead of debuff on the enemy target.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Or demolish it altogether. I mean the Ret Paladin Feedback is pretty much resistant to the changes going on. It's unlikely though due to both of Celestalon and Kalgan resisting.



But I'm cranky tonight so that could explain a lot of how I feel

[Taeldorian]

OK so we have the official answer now, Judgement debuff will never become a buff on ourselves because it's intended that Mastery won't work AoE if you don't pick Greater Judgement.
So we can now stop in our concerns about Mastery design, Judgement debuff and such. It feels like I said a couple hours ago: we're in the tuning phase and our design has ended.

Design hasn't ended, read the DK notes. Various different changes to make the gameplay "feel good".

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Or demolish it altogether. I mean the Ret Paladin Feedback is pretty much resistant to the changes going on. It's unlikely though due to both of Celestalon and Kalgan resisting.



But I'm cranky tonight so that could explain a lot of how I feel

Nope, you're right. Kalgan stated that equality is a fun talent to pick up, even if it's not optimal, but that's not even close to being true. It promotes bad gameplay choices in PVE. I'm okay with having talents that are sub-optimal to other ones as long as they're fun to use so I get some enjoyment out of it during farm runs, but equality isn't fun, not even close.