[TV] Better Call Saul! (Breaking Bad Spinoff)

[Deleted]

What? Like literally, what? Have you ever worked in a client-based profession? Chuck's "vicious move" is what anyone would do to keep a client. He didn't do anything backhanded, he didn't do anything illegal or even immoral, he just reminded the client of how many resources HHM had, and what a true expert he was. He even went out of his way to not badmouth Kim, and in fact complimented her completely. And then the client made a choice to stick with them. Whether they "needed" Mesa Verde is a ridiculous argument to make.

Are you just to ignorant to say that STILL he did it ONLY to hurt Kim and thus his brother. Ofc he was "legally" right, yet he did it just to screw with his brother.....

I also don't think it's fair to label Chuck's emotions as jealousy,

But thats what he is. He is pissed that Jimmy archived so much more then him by doin less work. He got his law dagree and a gf. Its pure jealousy.

I think it's a kind of disgust born out of Jimmy's constant cutting of corners, and not being punished for it. Jimmy has conned, schemed, and cajoled his way through life and has barely got a slap on the wrist for it. In fact, when he did get in trouble (in s1, we see Jimmy in jail) Chuck is the one who bails him out, gives him a job at his firm where he's a named partner (which is a big fucking deal) and essentially allows Jimmy to start over in New Mexico when he had no chance of being anything in Michigan.

He gives him a chance? Jimmy is looking up to him, goes to law school and his brother pisses all over his law degree by putting him in the mail department to show him how worthless he is.

What I think is going on here is a whole bunch of cognitive dissonance: everyone loved Saul from BB, and so they want to see him as the good guy in this series. He isn't. Here's another hint: everyone liked Mike too in BB, but he's not a good guy either. That's basically every character Vince Gilligan ever wrote. Did you think Walter White was a good guy too? Jesus.

No but the difference is Chuck CHOOSE from start to be bad to his brother, to the others stuff happend. Walter didnt choose to have cancer.

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Pretty sure Kim knows Jimmy did it.

Ofc she does thats why she was hitting him in the car.

[eschatological]

Are you just to ignorant to say that STILL he did it ONLY to hurt Kim and thus his brother. Ofc he was "legally" right, yet he did it just to screw with his brother.....

He did it because it's a multi-million dollar client. Do you know how much money it is to lose a client like that? Hint: it's enough that Kim can go into solo practice with just that one client.

But thats what he is. He is pissed that Jimmy archived so much more then him by doin less work. He got his law dagree and a gf. Its pure jealousy.

Jimmy got his law degree because CHUCK LITERALLY GOT HIM OUT OF JAIL. And then set him up in New Mexico, because Jimmy sure as shit couldn't have gone to law school in Michigan, let alone be admitted to the bar there.

He gives him a chance? Jimmy is looking up to him, goes to law school and his brother pisses all over his law degree by putting him in the mail department to show him how worthless he is.

Small quibble, but Jimmy was working in the mail room before he went to law school. When he finally finishes his degree, by mail, that's when he learns HHM is never going to give him a job - and that's because he has a law degree by mail. According to the wiki, "Jimmy eventually earns his law degree online from the University of American Samoa." I don't know if this is even a real law school, but the point is that American Samoa 1) isn't a state, and 2) isn't accredited. As an aside, it's pretty clear Chuck had a wife as well, so I don't know what your point is there.

No but the difference is Chuck CHOOSE from start to be bad to his brother, to the others stuff happend. Walter didnt choose to have cancer.

We don't know how Chuck treated Jimmy prior to the episode where we see Jimmy stealing from his father's store. Chuck sees the bankruptcy of the store, and ultimately the death of his father (from heartbreak, I guess), as Jimmy's fault, and his emotions all stem out of the idea that Jimmy was the one who acted/was most upset at his father's funeral, even though he was the one taking the most harmful acts against his father. This is, to me, like a mirror of Dostoevsky's Brothers Karamazov, where Jimmy is Dmitri, who thinks "everything is permissible," and Chuck is Ivan, the intellectual one who can't stand the moral apathy of his brother.

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By the by, did we forget Jimmy wanted Chuck to cash out of HHM so he could bolster his own practice, after he himself left HHM? He's really looking out for Chuck, man.

[8bithamster]

He literally said he was going to go over the road to get a sandwich. Did you actually watch the episode or do you just like to spout buzzwords over and over again and act as if you have a point?

I said that Chuck is a dick in my post, no one is denying that Chuck is a dick, but being a dick does not mean that he doesn't qualify for sympathy.

As someone else in the topic said;

Well, as Vince Gilligan said, Jimmy was disgusted at how simple and gullible his father was, and he decided he was going to be one of the wolves, not one of the sheep. He's absolutely doing things out of the goodness of his heart though; he wanted to help Kim, so he did. He just has no qualms about breaking the law to help someone he loves. However, he has always also wanted to help Chuck, and he has always stuck by his side eventually. He saw what he did to Chuck as nothing more than a simple prank between brothers, that would stumble Chuck up a bit.

Why does Chuck do it? Because he can, because he wants to fuck up Jimmy's life as much as he can. He has a complete disregard for his brother. Yes, Jimmy is a dick but at least what he does has good intentions, unlike Chuck.
He's the same as Walter's wife, a character made to hate, with no redeeming attributes at all.

[eschatological]

Jimmy's intentions are purely self-serving. He's selfish. Kim falls into the sphere of his selfishness because he's the woman he wants. That doesn't mean he has "good intentions." At the same time, he even disregards damaging Kim's reputation when he publishes the commercial at Davis and Main, after she's vouched for him and gotten him this job. He lies to her about getting the approval as well. He's done plenty of shitty things to even Kim, and it's all been about him. You can even see the vanity he has in terms of the cocobolo desk.

[pateuvasiliu]

Hey don't diss on the cocobolo desk :P

[Kennyloggins]

This show is brilliant. I actually am nauseous reading eschatological's posts because I disagree with absolutely everything he says. The fact that they created a dynamic where viewers have such divided moral stances is awesome to me.

[Dug]

Jimmy's intentions are purely self-serving. He's selfish. Kim falls into the sphere of his selfishness because he's the woman he wants. That doesn't mean he has "good intentions." At the same time, he even disregards damaging Kim's reputation when he publishes the commercial at Davis and Main, after she's vouched for him and gotten him this job. He lies to her about getting the approval as well. He's done plenty of shitty things to even Kim, and it's all been about him. You can even see the vanity he has in terms of the cocobolo desk.

I see where you're coming from in his "protecting" of Kim. Yeah he does things to help her but ultimately its because he loves her and doesn't want to lose her so in a way it is selfish. But with Chuck he has been nothing but giving and expecting nothing in return. Even after his brother fucks him over time and time again when he's in trouble he's still right there to help him get better no matter how long it takes. He's definitely not an "all good" character but he's also not "all bad". Chuck, on the other hand, is a self righteous prick that can't let things slide because his brother didn't have to work as hard as he did to get to his point in life.

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Are you sure Jimmy stole from his dad? I read that scene as his dad lost the store because he was giving so much money away.

Yeah he was stealing from his dad, but his dad continued to give money away to whatever conman came through the door with a sob story. It was a combination of the two that ultimately ruined his fathers store. But really even if Jimmy hadn't stolen from his father it was only a matter of time with how generous he was

[Deleted]

He did it because it's a multi-million dollar client. Do you know how much money it is to lose a client like that? Hint: it's enough that Kim can go into solo practice with just that one client.

Sriously dude you dont seem to be able to grasp the show.... or you just hate Jimmy, which begs the question why you even watch the show...

Small quibble, but Jimmy was working in the mail room before he went to law school. When he finally finishes his degree, by mail, that's when he learns HHM is never going to give him a job - and that's because he has a law degree by mail.

Wrong again. (Seriously dude do you even WATCH the show) Jimmy doesnt geta better job at HHM because of CHUCK

But I get it you just hate Jimmy, so this is clearly the wrong show for you cause not everything is just black and white....

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Jimmy's intentions are purely self-serving. He's selfish. Kim falls into the sphere of his selfishness because he's the woman he wants. That doesn't mean he has "good intentions." At the same time, he even disregards damaging Kim's reputation when he publishes the commercial at Davis and Main, after she's vouched for him and gotten him this job. He lies to her about getting the approval as well. He's done plenty of shitty things to even Kim, and it's all been about him. You can even see the vanity he has in terms of the cocobolo desk.

Man do you even read yourself? You contradict everything the CREATOR of the show says....but ofc YOU are so special you have way more insight...*sigh*

[Simulacrum]

Emphasis mine. I like how you say Jimmy chooses to be a predator, to walk the "ends justify the means" line (hint: in every moral philosophy ever, it doesn't, except strict utilitarianism), that he'll harm other people and break the law to protect his own, but Chuck's the monster.

Well, considering "strict utilitarianism", as you call it, is the only moral philosophy that has ever successfully been applied to reality, is the one that our society's stability is built upon, and is the one that every living person who hasn't been brainwashed adheres to, I'd say he's in pretty good company there. It's also what makes him a good character, in that he acts a lot like an actual human being, motivated by what's important to him on a personal level, rather than acting like some robot driven by adherence to abstract philosophical theories that serve as a crutch to let the writers quickly plot out the behaviour of a character in a given situation without having to try to put themselves in that character's place... but I digress.

Anyway. That's not to say Jimmy's a good person. Well, I think he's maybe inherently a good person (too many of the things he does don't make sense unless he is; e.g. he isn't risking his life contradicting Tuco Salamanca to save some random asshole just because he 'needs to be liked', which would make no sense), but seemed to take out of life the lesson that it's either play or get played, and in that (false) dichotomy he decided to play... and in the act of being a 'player' he definitely does a lot of stuff that should rightly make everyone around him uncomfortable. It made me extremely uncomfortable, on Kim's behalf, just by her association to him on more than one occasion. If I were her I'd definitely have ditched Jimmy like 3 times by now.

I actually mostly agree with Chuck, but he's a pretty hard character to like even when he is in the right. He's a disingenuous, petty dick who hides his true feelings for his brother from him as he goes out of his way to denigrate him to others and fuck with him at great personal cost, even as his brother cares for him and indulges his absurd fantasy to make him feel better. That his massive ego and complete lack of self-awareness has left him obviously insane doesn't help matters much. The only thing that keeps me from hating him (even if I do respect his adherence to his principles, at least so far) is the question of whether or not he helps (and resultantly benefits from the aid of) Jimmy out of a sense of obligation to his brother, or if he "helps" him to keep him under control. If it's the former, there's at least some redeeming quality to him continuing to maintain his relationship with his brother, and it adds some complexity to his character with him struggling between wanting to help his brother and adhering to his personal principles. If it's the latter, though... then he's just a real fucking asshole. I tend to think it's the former, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were the latter...

[eschatological]

Sriously dude you dont seem to be able to grasp the show.... or you just hate Jimmy, which begs the question why you even watch the show...

I watch the show because it's a good show. Do you have to love a character of a show to watch it? Is that's what's happening here?

Wrong again. (Seriously dude do you even WATCH the show) Jimmy doesnt geta better job at HHM because of CHUCK

But I get it you just hate Jimmy, so this is clearly the wrong show for you cause not everything is just black and white....

He most certainly isn't a lawyer while working in the mail room. He gets his law degree, asks to be a lawyer at HHM, learns it's never going to happen, and quits. I like how you clipped my next sentence, though, his law degree is from the law school of AMERICAN SAMOA, which is not an accredited or recognized law school in the United States, nor would it be if it was real. And you're the one misremembering shit. Chuck was (in episode 8), super proud of Jimmy when Jimmy shows him he's graduated from law school online, even if it is American Samoa. And then yes, Chuck makes sure he can't work at HHM - but that's a business decision. Big law firms like HHM are prestigious, and require actual accredited law degrees. I actually went to law school and got my law degree, and the NYC firms all my friends went to would never have accepted Jimmy either. Even more concerning is that Jimmy is the younger brother of a NAMED partner. Chuck's name is literally on the door, and you can't have that name tarnished in any way if you want to be a lawyer to bankers and corporations.

Man do you even read yourself? You contradict everything the CREATOR of the show says....but ofc YOU are so special you have way more insight...*sigh*

Can you link this article again? I haven't read anything Vince Gilligan has said about this show.

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Well, considering "strict utilitarianism", as you call it, is the only moral philosophy that has ever successfully been applied to reality, is the one that our society's stability is built upon, and is the one that every living person who hasn't been brainwashed adheres to, I'd say he's in pretty good company there. It's also what makes him a good character, in that he acts a lot like an actual human being, motivated by what's important to him on a personal level, rather than acting like some robot driven by adherence to abstract philosophical theories that serve as a crutch to let the writers quickly plot out the behaviour of a character in a given situation without having to try to put themselves in that character's place... but I digress.

There is no moral code at present that is considered strict utilitarianism. None whatsoever. Machiavell was a strict utilitarian with a good heaping dose of despotism thrown in. Any presence of altruism, social responsibility or duty, etc, flies in the face of utilitarianism.

[Kickbuttmario]

I noticed you guys talking about the moral and which of Chuck/Jimmy is right/wrong in BBS, so I kinda wanted to give my thoughts.

First off, let's be quite honest. Both are in the wrong. And I don't think either are in the right either. They are both extremely complex characters and the writers in BBS have done a fantastic job at iterating their personalities and morals towards societal laws.

I won't get into too much of the details but I think that Jimmy was mainly just stuck between solely following the law like his brother or being a "criminal lawyer". We don't know much about his past with Chuck entirely yet but we do know that Chuck somehow motivated him to go into a route of good. Though, we still don't know how. In the first season, when the Kettlemen's women told him "you look like someone that guilty people would hire", he had that face of doubt and took their money/bribe. It was pretty much proof of him just not sure on what he wanted to do. In the ending of season 1, we saw that again as he mainly wanted to follow the route of his best friend because in the end of the day, it was that his own friend that made him realize that being "slippin Jimmy" is his calling. But in the beginning of season 2, we now have Kim that, again, like Chuck, made him hesitant on going that route.

Now as for Chuck, I can't blame him for having a grudge towards Jimmy. His own mom thought of Jimmy at the end of her days, while he wasn't there and was more interested in food. Also, to those that don't know, in anyone's final moments, their life usually flashes towards them and their best memories come rushing back to them. The science apparently is that insane amounts of the happy chemical (dopamine I think) is created so the person could deal with the shit storm that was about to occur (death). I think Chuck didn't tell Jimmy that their mom's last words were of his brother not because he was worried about hurting his feelings, but because he was, at that moment, truly the most envious. That kind of experience can easily rough up someone like Chuck. And we still have to know more about his wife.

It's hard to say how his family perceived Jimmy. He was a troublemaker, yet, ironically, his loved ones thought highly of him more so than Chuck, who followed the law. Yet, through season 1 and 2, it's obvious to see that not a lot of people even liked Chuck. It's interesting to think about at times.

Honestly, this is way more complex than I can make of and I would love to post everything but god damn, so much crap for someone who takes too long to think and write. :C

[Simulacrum]

There is no moral code at present that is considered strict utilitarianism. None whatsoever. Machiavell was a strict utilitarian with a good heaping dose of despotism thrown in. Any presence of altruism, social responsibility or duty, etc, flies in the face of utilitarianism.

Well, I'm not the guy who called it "strict utilitarianism"... but since we're on that topic right now: "Altruism, social responsibility or duty, etc" is all perfectly consistent with just about any definition of utilitarianism, since all those things are examples of entities willingly suffering small losses in the now in exchange for greater gains in the future: The maximization of utility. Though, I suppose unconditional "altruism, social responsibility or duty, etc" wouldn't be something a disciplined utilitarian would engage in, but then any of those behaviours engaged in unconditionally are morally wrong, so if you care about that sort of thing then that's a point in utilitarianism's favour.

Anyway, my point was that just about everyone engages in a "ends justifies the means" mentality. Jimmy does it when he breaks or 'bends' the law to help people. Chuck does it when he lies to his brother to protect people from him. We all do it when we approve of people being imprisoned against their will because we believe that moral wrong to be less wrong than allowing those people to continue to victimize. The examples are endless. Of course, that's not some overriding philosophical precept that every person always adheres to in every situation (Jimmy sure doesn't always do it either; a lot of his actions are purely selfless, and a lot of them are purely selfish), but it's something that everyone nonetheless frequently engage in.

[eschatological]

The definition of altruism is literally self-sacrifice with no intention of reward. And if you want to talk "unconditional" altruism etc, an "unconditional" or "strict" utilitarian wouldn't accept any sacrifice if there was another way to maximize their personal utility. That's why I differentiated it as "strict" utilitarianism from the various forms of utilitarianism we see in our society, like the philosophy of capitalism, which has rules and regulations even in it's most laissez-faire forms.


"The ends justifies the means" is pretty much antithesis to our legal society, and the development of Western morality except in the most extreme of cases (war being a notable example, where the killing of another person is justified by some larger national policy goal). Your example of imprisoning people being the "ends justifying the means" is nonsensical, the "end" itself is imprisoning people because they broke the social contract, and is moral under most systems. It is not a means to prevent some nebulous, uncertain "end" that you're conjecturing about.

[Denkou]

The past 3 pages of discussion or so = why I love this show (and BB). I can't think of any other shows that can create such differing viewpoints among its viewers, all of which have valid arguments. This show is complex on so many levels and I don't think there is a "right" or a "wrong"; every viewer will interpret each characters' actions in a different way and according to their own beliefs.

I think I need to go re-watch Breaking Bad while I wait for season 3.

[Stone the Crow]

I noticed you guys talking about the moral and which of Chuck/Jimmy is right/wrong in BBS, so I kinda wanted to give my thoughts.

For me, it comes down to this:

Jimmy does unethical things mostly for good. Sure, he's willing to defend people who are doing terrible things, and for his own gain which is his driving motivation, but he still does a lot of good simply for the sake of doing so. And when he sees a big injustice, he does what he can to help fix it, even if it would risk hurting himself in some fashion. This was shown most clearly when he came to Chuck's aid at the copy shop.

Chuck is just an evil bastard through and through who doesn't care who or what he hurts as long as he gets what he wants. His hatred for his brother, while somewhat understandable, is no excuse for most of what he's been shown to do. Even when Jimmy isn't doing anything wrong, you can see the hatred Chuck has for him in his eyes. Hell, even when Jimmy is being selfless and going out of his way to help him, Chuck is still an asshole towards him.

That said, I don't see what good the tape recording is going to have. Chuck himself gave Jimmy an out in the recording, telling him that he's "just saying that to make me feel better." Unless Chuck can convince both his assistant and the copy store clerk to change what they've said, he has absolutely nothing of substance to go after Jimmy with. And that's assuming the tape recording would be legal in the first place (it's not in most states, but I dunno about New Mexico; I'll give Chuck the benefit of the doubt though since he is a lawyer after all).

However, since we know that Jimmy is neither (permanently) disbarred nor in hiding thanks to Breaking Bad -- if he was doing either, it would be pretty stupid to have his face plastered all over billboards and on commercials in the exact same area he's in now -- it's clearly not going to work out well for Chuck. If anything, I'd say Jimmy ends up changing his name because of his brother and how he doesn't want to be associated with him in any way anymore.

[Deleted]

The definition of altruism is literally self-sacrifice with no intention of reward

And in reality, most people who do something altruistic do so because it feels like the right thing to do. It makes them feel good. Doing good feels good. Unfortunately, when you do something that feels good to you, you're acting selfishly.

True altruism would be doing something that you absolutely hate and loathe, something that you absolutely do not want to do at any point of doing it, but doing something that you know, through logic and facts, is the "right thing to do." Only when you're getting absolutely nothing out of doing something, not even the sense of doing the right thing because every single fiber in your body is fighting your decision, but doing that something is ultimately the right decision, that's when it's true altruism.

And that pretty much never, ever happens. Rest of the time, people are simply acting selfish, because on some level, what they're doing is good for them.

[Elim Garak]

Altruism is a nice concept, but it doesn't go beyond a concept. There's no altruism in reality.

[Khadgar]

why is Jimmy still driving that PoS yellow car that barely runs? he's clearly been doing pretty well for himself now, something that bugs me a little.

[Leafcast]

why is Jimmy still driving that PoS yellow car that barely runs? he's clearly been doing pretty well for himself now, something that bugs me a little.

Most of his money post Davis and Maine is probably tied up maintaining his part of the lease for the law office that he is sharing with Kim.

During the time that Jimmy was with D&M he was driving a nice car, and the one thing that the show focused on was how irritating it was that the cup holder didn't fit the mug that Kim gave him I don't think that Jimmy is in it for the pomp and circumstance, but more enjoys the journey.

[Blueobelisk]

why is Jimmy still driving that PoS yellow car that barely runs? he's clearly been doing pretty well for himself now, something that bugs me a little.

He's not really doing well for himself. He was ballin at Davis and Maine because they paid for his apartment and car, gave him a starting package, and gave him a baller salary.

Now he's really just doing bitch work for old people like usual. He's not really rich.

I agree with mathezar. Even if Jimmy did have money, he's the kind of guy to like his old beat up car.