The return of Kel'thuzad !

[Friendlyimmolation]

Bolvar was asleep, that's why he hasn't been in control. The same was true for Arthas when he just put on the helmet. That was part of the story of vanilla WoW, Kel'Thuzad controlling the Scourge in the Lich King's absence.

Arthas was close to a demigod thanks to the Lich King's power, I don't see why we shouldn't assume the same about Bolvar until proven otherwise. So what he doesn't have Frostmourne? He's more than capable enough to forge a replacement if he wanted to, as evidenced by the frost death knight artifacts.

Arthas was always in charge of the scourge, even when he was asleep

[JustRob]

Arthas was always in charge of the scourge, even when he was asleep

Well then I guess Bolvar is a slouch. Or just doesn't give a shit

[Friendlyimmolation]

Well then I guess Bolvar is a slouch. Or just doesn't give a shit

He's had none of the will that Arthas did, Arthas and his Goals for being the Lich King are way different than Bolvar, Bolvar alsso became the Lich King when he was severely weakened with reanimation and torture.

[Chipskunk]

if KT wanted to take over the scourge, what's to really stop him? unless it gets fleshed out that the power of the LK wasn't tied to anything that was destroyed after wrath, bolvar only has the ebon blade as his shield and sword...nothing else. was there anyone in the scourge more powerful than KT besides Arthas?

Has it been shown that the frost weapons in legion have any of the power that frostmourne had? or is it just the idea of using the fragments makes the weapons "powerful".

[Koryn123]

Bolvar was asleep, that's why he hasn't been in control. The same was true for Arthas when he just put on the helmet. That was part of the story of vanilla WoW, Kel'Thuzad controlling the Scourge in the Lich King's absence.

Arthas was close to a demigod thanks to the Lich King's power, I don't see why we shouldn't assume the same about Bolvar until proven otherwise. So what he doesn't have Frostmourne? He's more than capable enough to forge a replacement if he wanted to, as evidenced by the frost death knight artifacts.

The reason Bolvar is weaker than Arthas is because he's not a death knight or a necromancer. Arthas was already a master of necromancy and the Lich King's greatest champion when he put on the Helm. He also had the rest of the armor and Frostmourne too, while Bolvar has just the Helm.

*Arthas before he became Lich King*

1. Death Knight
2. Master of Necromancy
3. Wielder of Frostmourne
4. Gets the Plate of the Damned as well as the Helm of Domination, so he's got everything the Lich King was originally built with.
5. Willing support from Kel'thuzad, as well as the Cult of the Damned.

*Bolvar before he became Lich King*

1. Paladin
2. No knowledge or experience with Necromancy whatsoever
3. No Plate of the Damned
4. No Frostmourne
5. Just the Helm
6. Wouldn't be followed by anyone from the Cult of the Damned.


Arthas had a great deal more experience with it, and already had considerable power in the area of necromancy.

Bolvar had no experience with it.


Look at it this way: A super experienced soldier with the best gun around vs. someone who's never fired a gun in their life, with the same gun.

They have the same gun, but the veteran has loads more experience, while the person who's never shot wouldn't know the first thing about how to load it or open and clean it.


As a result of this, Bolvar isn't as powerful as Arthas, which lead to his control over intelligent Scourge like Val'kyr being so weak that they could just leave whenever they wanted and join Sylvanas instead.

Bolvar also can't control any Scourge outside of Northrend, which meant that the Plaguelands were still a threat.

The Cult of the Damned also followed Arthas willingly, and likely don't know that Bolvar is in charge in Northrend now, only knowing that Arthas was defeated. If they are aware of Bolvar, they certainly have no desire to follow him, as there's an Underking in Eastern Plaguelands who proclaims himself the new Lich King and is put down by the Argent Crusade.

Bolvar has no control outside Northrend, and even then, his control over those in Northrend is very shaky, mainly limited to the mindless Scourge like ghouls, while the ones like Val'kyr, San'layn (I assume, if any still live), and death knights (who would probably join the Ebon Blade) were free to easily resist and do as they pleased.

So, it would be relatively simple for Kel'thuzad to wrest control over all the Scourge in the Plaguelands and Ghostlands, and I have no doubt that the surviving Cult of the Damned members would gladly follow and assist him in this venture.

And Dar'Khan Drathir, if Blizzard made the logical choice to bring him back, rather than invent some no-name schmucks like they usually do, would jump at the chance for the power that would come from being Kel'thuzad's second-in-command. He's certainly not powerful enough to take control himself.

But Dar'Khan is similar to the Cult of the Damned in that he's independent. He was happy to work against Arthas in the Sunwell Trilogy when he thought he was about to absorb all the power from the Sunwell, thinking he could make Arthas bow to him and basically rule the world.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

KT could definitely come back. Nobody ever found that Phylactery. He did previously serve the Legion, though he eventually decided his loyalty to the Lich King was greater. We could conceivably see him in Legion. Wouldn't be the first time that Kil'Jaeden captured an old ally, tortured him, and forced them to do his bidding again. That said if they were going to do it I'd have thrown him in as the final boss of Assault on Violet Hold attempting to free former agents of the Scourge. He'd be empowered by the Legion, naturally. Fel'Thuzad.

[Khaza-R]

I can't see KT coming back unless they retcon the whole Ner'zhul thing and bring him back. KT's entire personality is a loyal henchman. I don't ever see him becoming a main villain.

[Sartorius 01]

The reason Bolvar is weaker than Arthas is because he's not a death knight or a necromancer. Arthas was already a master of necromancy and the Lich King's greatest champion when he put on the Helm. He also had the rest of the armor and Frostmourne too, while Bolvar has just the Helm.

*Arthas before he became Lich King*

1. Death Knight
2. Master of Necromancy
3. Wielder of Frostmourne
4. Gets the Plate of the Damned as well as the Helm of Domination, so he's got everything the Lich King was originally built with.
5. Willing support from Kel'thuzad, as well as the Cult of the Damned.

*Bolvar before he became Lich King*

1. Paladin
2. No knowledge or experience with Necromancy whatsoever
3. No Plate of the Damned
4. No Frostmourne
5. Just the Helm
6. Wouldn't be followed by anyone from the Cult of the Damned.


Arthas had a great deal more experience with it, and already had considerable power in the area of necromancy.

Bolvar had no experience with it.


Look at it this way: A super experienced soldier with the best gun around vs. someone who's never fired a gun in their life, with the same gun.

They have the same gun, but the veteran has loads more experience, while the person who's never shot wouldn't know the first thing about how to load it or open and clean it.


As a result of this, Bolvar isn't as powerful as Arthas, which lead to his control over intelligent Scourge like Val'kyr being so weak that they could just leave whenever they wanted and join Sylvanas instead.

Bolvar also can't control any Scourge outside of Northrend, which meant that the Plaguelands were still a threat.

The Cult of the Damned also followed Arthas willingly, and likely don't know that Bolvar is in charge in Northrend now, only knowing that Arthas was defeated. If they are aware of Bolvar, they certainly have no desire to follow him, as there's an Underking in Eastern Plaguelands who proclaims himself the new Lich King and is put down by the Argent Crusade.

Bolvar has no control outside Northrend, and even then, his control over those in Northrend is very shaky, mainly limited to the mindless Scourge like ghouls, while the ones like Val'kyr, San'layn (I assume, if any still live), and death knights (who would probably join the Ebon Blade) were free to easily resist and do as they pleased.

So, it would be relatively simple for Kel'thuzad to wrest control over all the Scourge in the Plaguelands and Ghostlands, and I have no doubt that the surviving Cult of the Damned members would gladly follow and assist him in this venture.

And Dar'Khan Drathir, if Blizzard made the logical choice to bring him back, rather than invent some no-name schmucks like they usually do, would jump at the chance for the power that would come from being Kel'thuzad's second-in-command. He's certainly not powerful enough to take control himself.

But Dar'Khan is similar to the Cult of the Damned in that he's independent. He was happy to work against Arthas in the Sunwell Trilogy when he thought he was about to absorb all the power from the Sunwell, thinking he could make Arthas bow to him and basically rule the world.

Kel'thuzad can make his own army of the scourge and reunite the cult of the damned.

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Pretty sure the Knights of the Ebon Blade would make Kel'Thuzad their bitch nowadays.

The knights of the ebon blade are powerful , but that doesn't mean Kel'thuzad is weak... after all , they ebon blade are using his book to learn some of his secrets..

[Fritters154]

prophet velen saw a vision that there will be a lich king in the future far dangerous than arthas. could that have a relation with the return of kel'thuzad in future expansions ?

Sylvanas? They have been kind of building her to be the Lich Queen.

[Vicarys]

What would Kel'Thuzad, Bolvar and the Scourge (army of rotten shitty corpses and edgy cultists) do against people capable of fighting universal threats such as Sargeras and Cthulhus? Cannon fodder allies to us?

[Sartorius 01]

What would Kel'Thuzad, Bolvar and the Scourge (army of rotten shitty corpses and edgy cultists) do against people capable of fighting universal threats such as Sargeras and Cthulhus? Cannon fodder allies to us?

without Bolvar controlling the scourge , the scourge would wipe everything like locusts. that is mentioned in the cut scene when u kill arthas... so the scourge aren't weak at all. They just need to be free from bolvar's controll so they can wreck havoc in azeroth

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I don't think he will be automatically loyal to bolvar just because of his title "the lich king". I can see him trying to somehow push bolvar into the ways of the former lich king.

kel'thuzad might create his own scourge and recreate the cult of the damned. Who knows what he's currently doing.

[Deleted]

*Bolvar resurrects Kel'thuzad*
"Ah, finally, my king Arthas, I am back and... who the f*** are you?"

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What would Kel'Thuzad, Bolvar and the Scourge (army of rotten shitty corpses and edgy cultists) do against people capable of fighting universal threats such as Sargeras and Cthulhus? Cannon fodder allies to us?

What if they could resurrect all the creatures we kill, but on our side? eh? Eh? EH?!

[JustRob]

That's part of the reason why Arthas could sweep through entire nations and annihilate them. His necromancy wasn't limited to humans, any foe he slew, he raised as undead. It's hard to win a war if the enemy gains numbers for every one of your soldiers they kill.

[Sartorius 01]

That's part of the reason why Arthas could sweep through entire nations and annihilate them. His necromancy wasn't limited to humans, any foe he slew, he raised as undead. It's hard to win a war if the enemy gains numbers for every one of your soldiers they kill.

indeed. The scourge have unlimited potential.

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I can't see KT coming back unless they retcon the whole Ner'zhul thing and bring him back. KT's entire personality is a loyal henchman. I don't ever see him becoming a main villain.

after the fall of the Lich king , the cult of the damned become independent. No one knows what Kel'thuzad is doing.

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I always thought it would be cool for a second Scourge expansion for Kel'thuzad to come back, since his phylactery was never discovered, so he's still around somewhere. He could rally the survivors of the Scourge outside Northrend (since Bolvar doesn't control any of them) as well as any Cult of the Damned members still out there, and make his base of operations Deatholme in the Ghostlands. It's the only major non-Bolvar Scourge stronghold still standing, now that Scholomance and Andorhal are history, Stratholme is claimed by the Argent Crusade, and Razorfen Downs is probably similar.

Dar'Khan Drathir is very similar to Kel'thuzad in that he returns from seeming destruction several times as well.

Dar'Khan was incinerated by Tyragosa's fire breath in the Sunwell Trilogy, but returned from that.

He was completely obliterated by Anveena, the avatar of the Sunwell, and thus with access to its limitless arcane power, but returned from that.

He was "killed" by Lor'themar using a magical enchanted arrow made from a fragment of the Stone of Spark, which was one of the stones used to power the bubble shield around Silvermoon during the Troll Wars. But he returned from that.

So, if Dar'Khan can come back after dragonfire, Sunwell power, and a master ranger's super magical powered arrow, I'm sure some random schmuck who cut off his head with some rinky-dink sword enchanted by the sister stones to the Stone of Spark wouldn't be too much of a problem to come back from.

So, Kel'thuzad could set up shop in Deatholme with Dar'Khan as his majordomo as he was for Arthas, and he could build the Scourge back up. The Ghostlands is probably the most dense population of Scourge remaining, since the Argent Crusade seems to be feeling pretty secure with themselves in the Plaguelands, now that they've claimed Hearthglen, Stratholme, Tyr's Hand, bolstered Light's Hope (not to mention the paladin order hall folks there), and restored all the guard towers all over the place.

The Plaguelands must not be too much of a problem. Scholomance is finished, and now the Argents are focusing on restoring the land to its natural healthy state there. And they didn't really leave many loose ends in Cataclysm quests.

So Ghostlands is probably the most densely populated by Scourge, and the most plagued land. It would be a good place to start if Kel'thuzad wanted to rebuild the Scourge.


But, as we all know, that would force Blizzard to give the Blood Elves more spotlight than being leaders of an organization in a human city. I'm sure that instead, Blizzard would just have Dalaran fly over to the Ghostlands and everyone would work through there with Khadgar. That seems to be their go-to these days. Can't give anyone anything except Kirin Tor.

But instead of that, Blizzard might just have Kel'thuzad say all Scourge everywhere are dismantled, and have Kel'thuzad set up shop somewhere that would make humans or orcs his main enemy, like Duskwood or the Barrens, because Blizzard can't get over their hard-on for orcs and humans.

it is true that bolvar can only controll the scourge in northrend , which indicates that the scourge scattered across other areas can be controlled by Kel'thuzad and the cult of the damned.

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https://youtu.be/2TDwIWD4ASI?t=2m41s

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https://youtu.be/2TDwIWD4ASI?t=2m41s

[Chipskunk]

What would Kel'Thuzad, Bolvar and the Scourge (army of rotten shitty corpses and edgy cultists) do against people capable of fighting universal threats such as Sargeras and Cthulhus? Cannon fodder allies to us?

wtf. who said we were capable of fighting sargeras? he's the size of a planet and the strongest being in the universe other than void lords and possibly light lords who exist outside reality. Sarg heard about the void lords and nearly crapped his diaper. The naaru can't seem to do anything about KJ/Archi, who are far weaker than sarg. since we aren't champions of the universe and completely mortal, i'm pretty sure that there is plenty KT, bolvar and CoTD can do, specifically kill us. the only reason why players are around and constantly ressurected is because this is a game. haven't played too many games where you get 1 life and when you die, its game over. no starting at a save point, file wiped clean, gotta start over.

[Sartorius 01]

wtf. who said we were capable of fighting sargeras? he's the size of a planet and the strongest being in the universe other than void lords and possibly light lords who exist outside reality. Sarg heard about the void lords and nearly crapped his diaper. The naaru can't seem to do anything about KJ/Archi, who are far weaker than sarg. since we aren't champions of the universe and completely mortal, i'm pretty sure that there is plenty KT, bolvar and CoTD can do, specifically kill us. the only reason why players are around and constantly ressurected is because this is a game. haven't played too many games where you get 1 life and when you die, its game over. no starting at a save point, file wiped clean, gotta start over.

Totally right.

[Vicarys]

wtf. who said we were capable of fighting sargeras? he's the size of a planet and the strongest being in the universe other than void lords and possibly light lords who exist outside reality. Sarg heard about the void lords and nearly crapped his diaper. The naaru can't seem to do anything about KJ/Archi, who are far weaker than sarg. since we aren't champions of the universe and completely mortal, i'm pretty sure that there is plenty KT, bolvar and CoTD can do, specifically kill us. the only reason why players are around and constantly ressurected is because this is a game. haven't played too many games where you get 1 life and when you die, its game over. no starting at a save point, file wiped clean, gotta start over.

We are the mortals that:
-Sent Archimonde to the Twisting Nether twice;
-Sent Kil'jaeden, the one who created the Scourge, to the Twisting Nether once;
-Killed Deathwing, the Earth Aspect;
-Ashbringer now lies in the hands of the same champion that was responsible for all that (not to mention that it is now produced in industrial scale for all Paladins);
-We have the Valkyr as allies;
-The Night Elves that dealt with the first invasion are our allies and one of them is the best demon killer and now Jesus Christ incarnated;

Yeah, you're right about Sargeras being too much, but the Scourge is meaningless nowadays, specially if the Lich King is still at our side, calming the mindless zombies in Northrend. Could they kill us, mortals? Ofc they could kill, but even a rotten egg or a cold could kill a mortal, so that doesn't mean much, but the PCs are more than prepared to deal with Scourge again.

[Sartorius 01]

We are the mortals that:
-Sent Archimonde to the Twisting Nether twice;
-Sent Kil'jaeden, the one who created the Scourge, to the Twisting Nether once;
-Killed Deathwing, the Earth Aspect;
-Ashbringer now lies in the hands of the same champion that was responsible for all that (not to mention that it is now produced in industrial scale for all Paladins);
-We have the Valkyr as allies;
-The Night Elves that dealt with the first invasion are our allies and one of them is the best demon killer and now Jesus Christ incarnated;

Yeah, you're right about Sargeras being too much, but the Scourge is meaningless nowadays, specially if the Lich King is still at our side, calming the mindless zombies in Northrend. Could they kill us, mortals? Ofc they could kill, but even a rotten egg or a cold could kill a mortal, so that doesn't mean much, but the PCs are more than prepared to deal with Scourge again.

some speculation: maybe some part of Ner'zhul remains in that helm , which slowly results in taking control over bolvar

[Chipskunk]

We are the mortals that:
-Sent Archimonde to the Twisting Nether twice;
-Sent Kil'jaeden, the one who created the Scourge, to the Twisting Nether once;
-Killed Deathwing, the Earth Aspect;
-Ashbringer now lies in the hands of the same champion that was responsible for all that (not to mention that it is now produced in industrial scale for all Paladins);
-We have the Valkyr as allies;
-The Night Elves that dealt with the first invasion are our allies and one of them is the best demon killer and now Jesus Christ incarnated;

Yeah, you're right about Sargeras being too much, but the Scourge is meaningless nowadays, specially if the Lich King is still at our side, calming the mindless zombies in Northrend. Could they kill us, mortals? Ofc they could kill, but even a rotten egg or a cold could kill a mortal, so that doesn't mean much, but the PCs are more than prepared to deal with Scourge again.

arch: 1st time was a fluke and could be called divine intervention by wisps, 2nd time, well...how much help did we have?
kj: basically pushing him back through a portal he wasn't even all the way through
DW: green jesus and time travel hijinks
Ashbringer: can be a powerful weapon no matter whose hands it is in, evil or good
Valkyr: very limited in power, unless the new ones in valhalla are shown to be super powerful
Nelfs: meh, they weren't the only ones helping and not very many of them are worth noting, except the crazies.

not seeing any instance where players did much without a HUGE amount of outside influence (divine intervention/fluke). maybe the elemental lords and the old gods since i don't think there was any sort of uber buff or npc helping with those bosses...oh wait.

specifically not mentioning LK because i've noticed it gets people frothing at the mouth on both sides

[Bathory]

He is dead, and that is the end of it.

He's not though, his phylactery has been missing and has been referenced as missing within the game multiple times (most recent was WOTLK). The foreshadowing is real. You can claim that "that's the end of it" , all you want, but that doesn't make it true.