Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[Aituul]

There is nothing to argue. Down ranking spells was not hard. Raids are much harder today and require more tools.

I disagree that raids today are more difficult. They are massively undertuned in some circumstances . mythic archimonde can be killed with 0 legendary rings, while most people doing mythic today have full upgraded legendary rings and 2/2 upgrades.
The classes themselves are braindead and the pruning has gone way to far. Arms warrior is just as braindead to play when your killing mythic archi as it is the rest of the time..
I personally got multiple 99% parses in heroic BRF as a survival hunter, completely braindead spec to say the least.
In vanilla you had to worry about spell ranks, threat management, mana management, you had to be careful with your pulls, you had to CC, you had a massive amount of preparation that was required, a massive setback on wiping in the form of a long run back / trash to clear, aswell as fights that were extremely challenging mechanically ( 4 horseman is honestly a hard to execute fight, even by today's standard's. )
I would also like to point out that just executing and perfecting your strat / mechanics doesn't feel like a compelling/ difficult challenge. I will always be able to execute the fight, but if the tuning isn't there ( which it's not ) , then the raid will NOT feel challenging.

[Froggy]

I don't know what they accomplished by closing Nostalrius. The other popular Vanilla private server has taken on most of the Nostalrius refugees to the point that their server is overflowing and now they're releasing another server this week.

[snackfeat]

I don't know what they accomplished by closing Nostalrius. The other popular Vanilla private server has taken on most of the Nostalrius refugees to the point that their server is overflowing and now they're releasing another server this week.

They accomplished nothing, everyone have just moved to the new server, and all it did was stir up shit and make a lot of people even more upset with blizzard, whether or not it's deserved.

[Eapoe]

They accomplished nothing, everyone have just moved to the new server, and all it did was stir up shit and make a lot of people even more upset with blizzard, whether or not it's deserved.

They accomplished in shutting down a server that made money off their product without their permission. Before anyone says "But they didn't...," donations to keep servers running is still making money. Please just leave it here and let's not start up with this again.

[Ielenia]

Tranquility and Prayer of Healing, Chain Healing only worked on 3.

There were also stuff like stoneskin totems to lower melee damage and Devotion Aura to increase armor, buffs like Blessing of Sanctuary that lowers damage taken, also Holy Nova.

The toolkit available to players was sooooooooooo much less than it is today

The boss abilities they had to watch out for were also sooooooooooo much fewer in number than today, as well. It balances out.

[cFortyfive]

I personally got multiple 99% parses in heroic BRF as a survival hunter

Not that I think you produced a real quality piece to begin with but just as a slight hint I wouldn't mention that in the future if you want your argument to be taken somewhat serious.

[snackfeat]

There were also stuff like stoneskin totems to lower melee damage and Devotion Aura to increase armor, buffs like Blessing of Sanctuary that lowers damage taken, also Holy Nova.


The boss abilities they had to watch out for were also sooooooooooo much fewer in number than today, as well. Balances out.

You have never set a foot in mythic, and I'm willing to bet that you did not raid at any decent level if at all in classic. You have no idea what you talk about.

[Lolsteak]

There were also stuff like stoneskin totems to lower melee damage and Devotion Aura to increase armor, buffs like Blessing of Sanctuary that lowers damage taken, also Holy Nova.

Stoneskin and Dev aura weren't AoE heals though, Never did see someone use Holy Nova either due to the low healing / high mana cost (Prayer of Healing - 560 mana - 444 to 473) (Holy Nova - 400 mana - 121 to 140)

The boss abilities they had to watch out for were also sooooooooooo much fewer in number than today, as well. Balances out.

To some extent I'd agree, However like Freedom4u2 says

Capacity of reaction was less important; it was more about keeping a constant execution until the boss died. Today, it's much more dynamic - but it puts a lot of weight on individuals more than the group itself. If you screw up, you're done, while in Vanilla, you had a bigger margin.

Vanilla was more about keeping up constant rotations (Downranked heals to save mana for example and max ranked if there's an issue) than the reactionary gameplay we have today.

Some abilities in Vanilla simply hit harder or had a bigger impact on the player/raid than they do today also, Kungen has been showing one example for an debuff from Naxx and comparing it with the Wrath equivalent.

Vanilla did something like 1,600/2 sec whereas the Wrath version did pretty much the same despite having 8-10 times the health, A clothie would simply die in 6 seconds in Vanilla.

We also had a lot harder (Well, Not harder just slower if you had decursive installed, Which still made it more difficult to maintain your duties) time removing debuffs (Some of the debuffs from Vanilla raids were seriously bad) from the raid which would lead to less healing or even DPS output.

All in all if your group was on point and nobody died it was smooth, There really wasn't much you had to 'react' to compared to today.. When shit hit the fan however you could really struggle to straighten things out.

[Ielenia]

You have never set a foot in mythic, and I'm willing to bet that you did not raid at any decent level if at all in classic. You have no idea what you talk about.

Get the ability sheet of Ragnaros, compare to the ability sheet of Imperator Mar'gok. Compare the ability sheet of Kel'Thuzard, to the ability sheet of Archimonde. Gee, I wonder which bosses have the least amount of abilities...

It's not rocket science.

[Aituul]

Not that I think you produced a real quality piece to begin with but just as a slight hint I wouldn't mention that in the future if you want your argument to be taken somewhat serious.

I personally think my experience with spec is relevant to my opinion on it. If I said survival hunters were braindead while having no experience THEN I wouldn't expect you to take me seriously. The only reason I mentioned that is to provide an example of WHY I think it's such a braindead spec. It's not like i'm bragging about getting a 99% parse on a braindead spec lol.

[snackfeat]

Get the ability sheet of Ragnaros, compare to the ability sheet of Imperator Mar'gok. Compare the ability sheet of Kel'Thuzard, to the ability sheet of Archimonde. Gee, I wonder which bosses have the least amount of abilities...

It's not rocket science.

And yet again you completely ignore the low amount of tools that people had to counter what was going on, as well as the incredibly tight tuning in naxx40. You say it's not rocket science, but what you say is complete bullshit and your lack of actual raid experience shows.

[Ielenia]

Stoneskin and Dev aura weren't AoE heals though,

They're not heals, but they're tools they could use to mitigate damage.

To some extent I'd agree, However like Freedom4u2 says


Vanilla was more about keeping up constant rotations (Downranked heals to save mana for example and max ranked if there's an issue) than the reactionary gameplay we have today.

Some abilities in Vanilla simply hit harder or had a bigger impact on the player/raid than they do today also, Kungen has been showing one example for an debuff from Naxx and comparing it with the Wrath equivalent.

Vanilla did something like 1,600/2 sec whereas the Wrath version did pretty much the same despite having 8-10 times the health, A clothie would simply die in 6 seconds in Vanilla.

I don't think it's a bit fair to compare the two Naxxramas instances, as one was an overtuned last-tier raid, while the new Naxxramas was an easy-fest all around. People would joke that Blizzard felt so bad so very few people got to see Naxxramas that they made it so piss-easy to ensure every raider would see the entire instance.

We also had a lot harder (Well, Not harder just slower if you had decursive installed, Which still made it more difficult to maintain your duties) time removing debuffs (Some of the debuffs from Vanilla raids were seriously bad) from the raid which would lead to less healing or even DPS output.

Debuffing today isn't a cakewalk. Debuffs have a cooldown now, when they didn't have, back then. You could literally spam them. Today, you have to literally judge if you should debuff a certain player or not.

All in all if your group was on point and nobody died it was smooth, There really wasn't much you had to 'react' to compared to today.. When shit hit the fan however you could really struggle to straighten things out.

Isn't that how things are for progression fights, even today? I mean, other than the 'there really wasn't much you had to react to', of course. I meant more the 'if everyone does their job things go ok, but if someone messes up it may mean a wipe'?

[Kalador]

I think end raid in vanilla (aq40 naxx) were harder moslty in the way that you had to do a tone of work before even thinking about doing them, the grind and the time you had to spend in was super big and it kept many player from even trying them, today it's way easier to catch up, probably too much, but it leaves a bigger pool of people for them.

Vanilla was more about keeping up constant rotations (Downranked heals to save mana for example and max ranked if there's an issue) than the reactionary gameplay we have today.

Some abilities in Vanilla simply hit harder or had a bigger impact on the player/raid than they do today also, Kungen has been showing one example for an debuff from Naxx and comparing it with the Wrath equivalent.

I think every one agree that Wrath Naxx was probably one of the easiest if not the easiest raid ever released, tho, I think comparing the 2 debuff like this is bad as it is taken out of context.

Also please don't quote Kungen, is probably the worst voice for legacy server. From someone who is split on the question and think there is a real question to weather there should be legacy server. if i was super pro legacy i would be scared that sodapoppin / kungen are the players representing me.

[Ielenia]

And yet again you completely ignore the low amount of tools that people had to counter what was going on,

And you completely ignored when I said:

It balances out.

as well as the incredibly tight tuning in naxx40. You say it's not rocket science, but what you say is complete bullshit and your lack of actual raid experience shows.

Naxxramas wasn't just 'tightly tuned', it was admittedly over-tuned. It was much harder than intended. Not to mention the lack of external tools people use nowadays, as well.

[Lolsteak]

They're not heals, but they're tools they could use to mitigate damage.

Little damage, They were nowhere near as potent as some of the abilities we have now

I don't think it's a bit fair to compare the two Naxxramas instances, as one was an overtuned last-tier raid, while the new Naxxramas was an easy-fest all around. People would joke that Blizzard felt so bad so very few people got to see Naxxramas that they made it so piss-easy to ensure every raider would see the entire instance.

I personally don't think Naxx was overtuned, It's just that it took so long to actually get people geared and into the place which really worked against it, The fights were difficult but surprisingly satisfying

Debuffing today isn't a cakewalk. Debuffs have a cooldown now, when they didn't have, back then. You could literally spam them. Today, you have to literally judge if you should debuff a certain player or not.

Indeed, Maybe I should have explained it better (It's late and i'm drinking).

Back in Vanilla when debuffs hit the raid you literally just debuffed until everything was gone, That was time consuming, Detracted from your regular duties in the raid and took a not unsubstantial amount of Mana which was a big issue in Vanilla.

Isn't that how things are for progression fights, even today? I mean, other than the 'there really wasn't much you had to react to', of course. I meant more the 'if everyone does their job things go ok, but if someone messes up it may mean a wipe'?

Again maybe I could have explained it better.

Nowadays there's many things you have to avoid in raids be it flames on the ground, adds, positioning etc.

When shit hit the fan (Which it did quite often, 40 people with varying player skill and probably some players you rarely raided with at all in the lower tiers of raiding) It got difficult, Not because of fight complexity but because of high incoming damage, Low healing capabilities and less abilities throughout the raid to deal with the issues. Classes were very very different, Depending on who fucked up, died or even your roster it could change fights quite a bit

[corebit]

Did you know that by the time TBC released only 23 Guilds in NA had cleared Naxx 40?

Mythic Archi is at what 400+ in the US and 1400+ world?

Just jumping in to point out that this comparison is quite useless since it leaves out so many factors like 40vs20 men, the number of raiding guilds then vs now, the amount of time available to tackle that raid (the most important), and eventual nerfing mechanics (stacking buffs or increased ilvl) that weren't present in vanilla. And let's not forget players and theorycrafting tools have gotten a lot better.

As an example China experienced TBC for a year longer than everyone else due to censorship issues, when they finally got Wrath everyone and their mother was Sunwell-geared.

[Lolsteak]

I think every one agree that Wrath Naxx was probably one of the easiest if not the easiest raid ever released, tho, I think comparing the 2 debuff like this is bad as it is taken out of context.

It may be but it's the closest we're going to get in comparing two completely different expansions

Also please don't quote Kungen, is probably the worst voice for legacy server. From someone who is split on the question and think there is a real question to weather there should be legacy server. if i was super pro legacy i would be scared that sodapoppin / kungen are the players representing me.

Opinions.. But again please don't start attacking the person instead of the argument. (FYI Kungen was quoting a video by Hamsterwheel).

[Kalador]

Opinions.. But again please don't start attacking the person instead of the argument. (FYI Kungen was quoting a video by Hamsterwheel).

you are right, i'm just so sad that those too guys are big voice for legacy server as they are really bringing this all debate down, witch is bad for both side.

[Lolsteak]

Just jumping in to point out that this comparison is quite useless since it leaves out so many factors like 40vs20 men, the number of raiding guilds then vs now

Ok lets half the amount of guilds who have killed Mythic Archi in NA to account for 20M

200+.. Still ten times that of Naxx 40

the amount of time available to tackle that raid (the most important).

Indeed, However you going by the World First it was still a much much longer time before it was cleared, 154 days for WF Ragnaros, 90 Days until WF Kel'Thuzad and 32 or so for Mythic Archi?

and eventual nerfing mechanics (stacking buffs or increased ilvl) that weren't present in vanilla.

The encounters are still being completed in far less time and I do agree that buffs etc increase that speed, I don't like how ilvl has inflated so much.

As an example China experienced TBC for a year longer than everyone else due to censorship issues, when they finally got Wrath everyone and their mother was Sunwell-geared.

That's really one of the issues with current WoW, The pacing of the expansions is ridiculous when you have a burst of content at the beginning and a drought at the end, I really didn't get far in Sunwell either (Killed Eredar Twins near the end of expac).

I might be going a bit off-topic but I still preferred Vanilla / TBC raids due to the pacing that came with them, Sure they weren't as graphically intensive as current raids and had less mechanics but they made up with that in the raid size and amount you had per expansion, But yeah I do think Naxx & SWP could have been out longer

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you are right, i'm just so sad that those too guys are big voice for legacy server as they are really bringing this all debate down, witch is bad for both side.

Possibly, I take it all with a grain of salt however.

Kungen has some chill streams and some cancer streams and anywhere inbetween and I don't watch Soda at all tbh, Still they're the opinions of single people and I take whatever they say as such, They're just somewhat louder than the average person.

[Ielenia]

Indeed, Maybe I should have explained it better (It's late and i'm drinking).

Back in Vanilla when debuffs hit the raid you literally just debuffed until everything was gone, That was time consuming, Detracted from your regular duties in the raid and took a not unsubstantial amount of Mana which was a big issue in Vanilla.

Dispels (rather than debuffs) today still cost a lot of mana. And in fights like Socrethar the dispelling is a necessary part of the fight, and if the caster adds don't get controlled, the debuff spamming from the caster adds can get quite out of hand, as you (as in, all the healers) won't be able to keep up with the dispelling.

Again maybe I could have explained it better.

Nowadays there's many things you have to avoid in raids be it flames on the ground, adds, positioning etc.

When shit hit the fan (Which it did quite often, 40 people with varying player skill and probably some players you rarely raided with at all in the lower tiers of raiding) It got difficult, Not because of fight complexity but because of high incoming damage, Low healing capabilities and less abilities throughout the raid to deal with the issues. Classes were very very different, Depending on who fucked up, died or even your roster it could change fights quite a bit

It doesn't make much sense, either. You're describing something that is almost akin to a random pug group, or worse, a LFR group, in terms of variance of player skill. If you get a similarly skilled group to a raid fight in WoD, they'll have just as much trouble if not more. If you're going to compare organized raiding, compare similarly assembled groups: assume the whole group being being experienced raiders, or, at the very least, the great majority of the group being experienced raiders.