[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Reghame]

Fine for single target and solo, annoying during AoE or when the boss fucks off to the other side of the room.

its much better than it is now since i dont have to rely on wings to do ally my damage either. But i think our AOE is much better than thete gives it credit for. Its not eye beam levels of damage sure (because eye beam kills EVERYTHING on a 30 second ish CD) but with wake and or holy wrath and things like cons and or divine hammer the AOE is fairly consistent.

also love how bubble is no longer a detriment so if im unsure if something can kill me or if im unsure of what mechanics are i just sit in bubble and still go ham while people have to fuck off.

BTW word of glory is also so strong for dungeon content. heals for a good like 40%+ with both charges which is a life saver for groups.

[Reisar]

Hello, I have been playing ret pala on live since Cataclysm, being always a very good DPS (on world 80 - 200 guilds, so not playing in high-end, where ret never was a top spect), and I'm always at 95%+ percentile just doing bosses normal (our guild dont do strats to top parses). I'm Just saying this to explain that im not the best ret in the world obviously, but I'm not bad.

So, my concern is that after every legion raid test, i finish more and more demoralized. Today a priest healer was doing same damage as mine.
I just want to know if I'm doing something super wrong with the rotation, talents or whatsoever, or is just that ret spect is horrible numbers-wise. Today i was doing like 150 - 190k where some other classes were doing like 300, 400k and more. I dont have other rets to ask, so is this normal? Which talents are bringing more DPS to us in raid tests?

Im not going to talk about our new mechanics (and our deleted mechanichs..), our non-existent mobility, or our poor Aoe. For me all of this is pretty obvious, but I will play ret at the end.

So i want to know if our numers are just not tunned, or are tunned and we will be worst spect in legion, or if we are fine and I playing Legion ret super bad, because I dont have so many time to play in this alpha, so maybe I'm missing something.

(Sorry for my english, not my nature language)

[Deleted]

its much better than it is now since i dont have to rely on wings to do ally my damage either. But i think our AOE is much better than thete gives it credit for. Its not eye beam levels of damage sure (because eye beam kills EVERYTHING on a 30 second ish CD) but with wake and or holy wrath and things like cons and or divine hammer the AOE is fairly consistent.
.

I make no comment on the actual damage; it's been ok the last build or two and Demon Hunters are currently tuned too high by some margin. It's the fact that our gameplay is based around a judgment debuff that you cannot reliably use in AoE, even with what is the currently obligatory Greater Judgment.

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. I dont have other rets to ask, so is this normal? Which talents are bringing more DPS to us in raid tests?

Are you not in the Paladin Discord?

I've not been able to do any raid testing as my guild don't do that and don't really know another guild's who might need me. However, I gather that, on the giant boss, our WoA is not hitting much as is the case on Wrath of Azshara. That may account for some of it at least.

[Deleted]

Just swiftly checking in to post a quote from Ujx on the alpha board I find particularly interesting:

Warcraftlogs.com has been weird with Blessing of Might. For one person logging, Blessing of Might damage was given all to me. On another parser, it was showing up individually per person I buffed as their damage. I don't know what the issue is, maybe Advanced Combat Logging?

Whatever it is, when I received full credit, it put my damage at around middle of the pack. Without, I was near the bottom. I'm hoping the latter isn't intended, making me buff myself with Might if I want a damage increase instead of the selfless style gameplay the former would provide.

As for raid testing, ret still seems to still be in a bad spot. Not just numbers wise but "why am I here" wise. I can give out a freedom, bop, or lay on hands. I can do average damage. I can stun things once and a while. I can't execute. I can't cleave for sh*t. I can't AoE for sh*t. My single target should be through the roof since I can't do much of anything else, but it's not. Just seems so typical ret.

Source: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...4307?page=3#49

Glad G. Blessing of Might works out as intended. *waves*

€dit - To clarify intended: Being a bit more than just a slight margin of your overall damage. Don't bore me with "tuning hasn't happened yet", I know that. But from occurrings like this you may conclude Blizzards intention with the spell and where it's value vaguely should be overall. If this is the case....well, I guess you can still rely on warriors, mages and hunters for dps right?

[Hofflerand]

I don´t know you enough to actually answer this question. But putting our little quarrel aside this is exactly what I was referring to in my not so nice post.
Were we on live try to save and protect our comrades in every way possible, it will be more like " oh a sac would save him or even better if I scarify my own survival button namely LoH on him ... nahhh just let the idiot die I have wings ready so yeah me!"
It´s not just our play style changing but our mindset as well. Fantasy wise this would fit a berserking warrior who is only getting angrier with each dying comrade or a warlock who looks at everyone else just as meatshields anyway who he associates with only for his own gain.

About the suicide talent I don´t even want to talk about... Ok just one thing while our passive encourage us to survive as long as possible this joke of a talent more or less encourages us to to attempt suicide as often as possible.

Not only are both skills antithesis to each other they also go against any kind of healthy raid behavior.

RL: "why didn´t you save the mage as I told you?!"
ret: "that would have been bad for my dmg!"
RL. "one GCD doesn´t kill you dps!"
ret: "no it doesn´t but it won´t give me more dmg! <Retribution>"
RL: "ok who is on the wait list? We just found an opening for another melee class!"

I have no quarrel with you, I'm just here to talk Ret.

Letting someone die will generally hurt the raid's overall success more than 50% damage for 10 sec will help it so I'm not gonna suddenly forget I'm a paladin. I adore our support spells. As for whether or not this passive fits our spec from a thematic standpoint, Retribution walks a very fine line between justice and vengeance and it's easy to stray (Arthas, the Scarlet Crusade). I think this passive fits that concept perfectly.

Our raid actively encourages getting other players killed so long as it doesn't lead to a wipe. In fact, sometimes our raid actually places "bounties" on raid members. The trick is that you only collect the bounty if you get that person killed without killing anyone else. This has been done many different ways, from swap blasting someone into the lava (in some cases 5 people swap blasting one person), to life gripping someone to the ledge who is running (and thus they run off the edge and die). Sometimes misdirect pull to a DPS, etc.

You're about to have a very exciting expansion.

[Ulthane]

Fine for single target and solo, annoying during AoE or when the boss fucks off to the other side of the room.

So basically mobility issues in pve. And AoE is bleh?

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its much better than it is now since i dont have to rely on wings to do ally my damage either. But i think our AOE is much better than thete gives it credit for. Its not eye beam levels of damage sure (because eye beam kills EVERYTHING on a 30 second ish CD) but with wake and or holy wrath and things like cons and or divine hammer the AOE is fairly consistent.

also love how bubble is no longer a detriment so if im unsure if something can kill me or if im unsure of what mechanics are i just sit in bubble and still go ham while people have to fuck off.

BTW word of glory is also so strong for dungeon content. heals for a good like 40%+ with both charges which is a life saver for groups.

That is the one thing im looking at, the fact stuff was buffed more and Wings does not dictate how much damage I deal just by looking at how things are tuned with some abilities. Though looking at the entirety of it damage wise they could buff Sword of Light a bit maybe or buff the AoE damage.

Good to hear that WoG is actually healing hard. Might be a needed/viable option in the ret kit come raids during the big Heal phases.

[Snegovik]

I remember Guardian was annoying to Frost Mages because it was immune to everything. Could just unleash that guy and he would just start kicking in teeth for the time he was out.

I remember guardian afk entire fight, because mage blinked and it bugged him or in a bg, he would just run away attacking some random target (hunter's pet most of the time), i don't miss having a guardian, if i wanted a pet, id go hunter )

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P.S. WoG seems like a thing to go for PvP as well asp RBGs/5s/3s. Imagine it is an FC map, 3 healers on D with your FC and all dps going offence to kill EFC, wogs would come very very handy

[Reghame]

I make no comment on the actual damage; it's been ok the last build or two and Demon Hunters are currently tuned too high by some margin. It's the fact that our gameplay is based around a judgment debuff that you cannot reliably use in AoE, even with what is the currently obligatory Greater Judgment.

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Are you not in the Paladin Discord?

I've not been able to do any raid testing as my guild don't do that and don't really know another guild's who might need me. However, I gather that, on the giant boss, our WoA is not hitting much as is the case on Wrath of Azshara. That may account for some of it at least.

Thats true, the way judge works means its highly not intended for AOE but i dont think blizz will make DS weak while ALSO making it not benefit from multiple targets not having judge at the same time.

If this is true this means that our 2-4 target cleave will be very high if you can deal good or decent AOE damage while not having judge up on all targets, but can do incredible cleaving damage if you can spread judge in that manner.

i also dont see the greater judge talent staying as is because our mastery and that talent make it to where judge becomes too much of our damage and not just a bonus effect.

Thats how i currently see it though.

[Ulthane]

I was thinking about the Blade of Justice row and a thought occurred to me about the old Blades of Light effect and then I thought of a proc and a tweak to Divine hammer.

Blade of Justice talents
-Blades of Light: Your holy power consumers have a chance to have your next Blade of Justice not trigger it's cooldown and have it deal Holy damage instead.
-Blade of Wrath: Damage increased greatly.
-Divine hammer: CD and duration lowered to 4 seconds and now triggers damage every 1 second.

Thoughts?

[garonne]

not sure if @Thete has mentioned it but GBoM is now solely part of the pally's dps and not spread across the three targets on WoL

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ght=1&source=3

edit: someone mentioned it above, didnt see it before.

[ujx]

not sure if @Thete has mentioned it but GBoM is now solely part of the pally's dps and not spread across the three targets on WoL

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ght=1&source=3

Depends on the parser AFAIK. We had two people parsing for us during raid testing today. One person's had me getting all the credit for BoM damage, the other had it individual.

I know it's too early to really talk about damage, but it isn't too early to talk about the gameplay. I only had a decent look at our AoE in a raid situation last week during High Botanist. Periodically during the fight, some adds would spawn. Some would come to melee, most would be killed by range before it could get to melee. When it did get to melee though, Divine Tempest hit pretty hard. The initial damage and the artifact trait. It made up my #1 source of damage and I only cast it periodically on adds and later into the fight when the boss splits.

It's similar to current ret. We can do respectable AoE depending if the adds are grouped in melee and don't die immediately. As we all know, this is rarely the case. That's why on-demand AoE like Barrage, Starfall, Marked Shot, Blade Storm, Havoc, Eye Beam, Blessed Hammer, etc... are all much superior to our AoE toolkit. Sure we can spec Consecration and Divine Hammer, but it makes us do pitiful single target.

I still hope for a tier 100 tree rework. Holy Wrath change was decent but unless they buff the damage by a lot, it's bad. Equality is Equality, Blizzard refuses to axe it. The Greater Blessings talent is so incredibly boring and doesn't do anything for gameplay.

As far as the tier 60 tree (Blade of Justice) goes, Blade of Wrath, when combined with haste, seems to get rid of most our dead spots in our rotation. Virtue's Blade on the other hand seems to be giving me more overall dps. I hate how slow it makes the rotation and having to sit on my hands a lot, but it will obviously be the best pick in later tiers, maybe even all tiers. Divine Hammer is one of those gimmick abilities that will only be used on pure AoE fights or to pad after progression. I kind of wish it would replace Crusader Strike instead of BoJ, like Prot''s Blessed Hammer.

[garonne]

Depends on the parser AFAIK. We had two people parsing for us during raid testing today. One person's had me getting all the credit for BoM damage, the other had it individual.

ahh, i see. probably just a mishap but with it actually showing all on the player its showing how powerful it really is.

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.

It's similar to current ret. We can do respectable AoE depending if the adds are grouped in melee and don't die immediately. As we all know, this is rarely the case. That's why on-demand AoE like Barrage, Starfall, Marked Shot, Blade Storm, Havoc, Eye Beam, Blessed Hammer, etc... are all much superior to our AoE toolkit. Sure we can spec Consecration and Divine Hammer, but it makes us do pitiful single target.

personally im not gonna play ret in legion and its mainly because of raid design ( i feel more times than not, rets weakness shines too often). their cleave/aoe damage wasn't very good imo (on average). but with legion i do think their aoe/cleave may be better with DS and WoA. currently you can do about 1.2M damage per target every 30 secs or so but in 6 gcds. if we can set up before the aoe comes and they live long enough, base aoe "should" be fine. but im not betting on it sadly.

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I still hope for a tier 100 tree rework. Holy Wrath change was decent but unless they buff the damage by a lot, it's bad. Equality is Equality, Blizzard refuses to axe it. The Greater Blessings talent is so incredibly boring and doesn't do anything for gameplay.

currently it does less than GBoM but it doesnt need to be buffed by a lot. it contributes somewhere between a 1/4 to 1/3 of the damage Executioner's sentence does (remember it gives us 1.67 TV) every minute. (it needs a buff just not a huge one)

if we use this log for instance
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=3

the holy power provided by holy wrath were used on Justicar's vegeance which provided a total 11.2% of dps compared to 14.4% of GBoM (should theoretically be doubled with talent). but then DH are OP and so that scaled GBoM damage quite high for this encounter as well. if we bring that down we should see closer damage percentages.

(yes i know tuning is still going on, just showing numbers as they are currently)

[Ulthane]

Depends on the parser AFAIK. We had two people parsing for us during raid testing today. One person's had me getting all the credit for BoM damage, the other had it individual.

I know it's too early to really talk about damage, but it isn't too early to talk about the gameplay. I only had a decent look at our AoE in a raid situation last week during High Botanist. Periodically during the fight, some adds would spawn. Some would come to melee, most would be killed by range before it could get to melee. When it did get to melee though, Divine Tempest hit pretty hard. The initial damage and the artifact trait. It made up my #1 source of damage and I only cast it periodically on adds and later into the fight when the boss splits.

It's similar to current ret. We can do respectable AoE depending if the adds are grouped in melee and don't die immediately. As we all know, this is rarely the case. That's why on-demand AoE like Barrage, Starfall, Marked Shot, Blade Storm, Havoc, Eye Beam, Blessed Hammer, etc... are all much superior to our AoE toolkit. Sure we can spec Consecration and Divine Hammer, but it makes us do pitiful single target.

I still hope for a tier 100 tree rework. Holy Wrath change was decent but unless they buff the damage by a lot, it's bad. Equality is Equality, Blizzard refuses to axe it. The Greater Blessings talent is so incredibly boring and doesn't do anything for gameplay.

As far as the tier 60 tree (Blade of Justice) goes, Blade of Wrath, when combined with haste, seems to get rid of most our dead spots in our rotation. Virtue's Blade on the other hand seems to be giving me more overall dps. I hate how slow it makes the rotation and having to sit on my hands a lot, but it will obviously be the best pick in later tiers, maybe even all tiers. Divine Hammer is one of those gimmick abilities that will only be used on pure AoE fights or to pad after progression. I kind of wish it would replace Crusader Strike instead of BoJ, like Prot''s Blessed Hammer.

Well with the 100 row which is in need of help desperately they need to take into account a couple of things.

-Blessings of Justice: Maybe a way to make it more interactive for the Paladin, maybe have a way where you can have 3 of each blessing out.
-Holy Wrath: If they lower the CD to 30 seconds it would be amazing even with a channel. They could however have it do instant damage with a 3 sec CD. Because it would synergize with Wake of Ashes amazingly well.
-Equality: I think the idea i brought up and @ruiizu brought up about it storing damage and then unleashing it would be amazing. Lower the CD though. But think Touch of Karma but instead it just happens at once.

[Super Kami Dende]

Ret feels ok atm I guess, my main annoyance is the feeling of having to wait for Judgement to come off CD once you've pooled enough Holy power to spend you shit, I know I could just take greater judgment but I kind of annoys me that I have to take a certain talent just to make the judgement window not feel clunky. Its the entire reason I stopped playing Warrior so long ago because I loathed the Colossus smash window of attacks and now I'm stuck with this shit on my Ret Pally Main.

That and since HoW is gone whenever I hit under 25% on something I tend to get into "execute range soon" mode of thinkingstill. Since you know..we had the fucking ability for 11 years.

[Vpuh]

Some further clarifications from the official theorycrafting thread:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...316?page=9#174
Including some new info on GBoM. Sounds like they don't want to bother us with juggling the buffs.
Thanks to Drownlord.

So....What shall we do if the raid leader wants to save BR for later and dont res dead player with Might?

[Deleted]

I watched the video, I looked at WoWhead and I still need to know if you can have 6 palas and one hunter in a raid for example and have all the palas buff that hunter with Blessing of Might? Would that hunter suddenly top meters in low gear? So does it stack? Would it be more viable to place it on the highest ilvl guy? IIRC the damage buff is added in with your damage or maybe that's another ability. If it's added in with your damage and doesn't stack as in if a pala has it on the mythic geared player then another one can't place his on him. So is it then a race to place it on the mythic geared person first?


2nd question: Is that 20% attack speed buff refering to weapon auto attack speed or haste?

3rd question: Will that class tax thing be a pain?

1. I dont think you can stack blessings of might to someone, only 1 per person. Example 1 retri in a 5man dungeon can give blessing of might to himself and the other 2 dpsers. 2 retris in a 5 man dungeon 1 retri can give gbom to all 3 dpsers and the other can give the other blessings. In this case i guess the one that gave the gboms will be higher at dps meters.

2. I am not sure where you are referring but if you are refering to the talent seal of light level 90 row, its movement speed buff.

3. We will see , damage wise nothing is certain yet.

Unfortunately I dont have alpha and the above is what I have understood so far .

Hope these helped.

[Teleros]

Just swiftly checking in to post a quote from Ujx on the alpha board I find particularly interesting:
Source: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...4307?page=3#49

Glad G. Blessing of Might works out as intended. *waves*

€dit - To clarify intended: Being a bit more than just a slight margin of your overall damage. Don't bore me with "tuning hasn't happened yet", I know that. But from occurrings like this you may conclude Blizzards intention with the spell and where it's value vaguely should be overall. If this is the case....well, I guess you can still rely on warriors, mages and hunters for dps right?

Only reason I can think of for his cleave damage being sub-par is that the Judgement debuff isn't spreading enough.

GBoM... hey there's a reason I want it taken out back and shot :P .

= + =

So basically mobility issues in pve. And AoE is bleh?

Think so. Or at least, even if our AE damager is competitive, it will FEEL bad because of the difference between a TV on a debuffed target and a DS on a bunch of debuff-less targets.

= + =

GBoM providing 15% damage sounds reasonable if you have Blessings of Justice. Each application of GBoM without it should yield roughly a 3% DPS increase, assuming everyone does equal DPS. So 3x3x2=18... yeah 15% sounds about what they're aiming for apparently.

[garonne]

Hoping that every minute another raid member dies so you get a retribution buff?
Also not sure what to think of the amount of damage GBoM contributes. All logs I have seen it is 10-15%. That...just doesn't feel right. Something between 5-10% would be ok, but 10-15% is too much.
Besides the problem that we won't be able to rebuff GBoM when one of the buffed group members dies, i just don't want anyone else but me to be responsible for more than 10% of MY damage.

classes aren't tuned yet so they skew GBoM damage (especially on DH)

[Deleted]

My overly tryharding, returning officer has already launched a spreadsheet with relic distribution and told raiders to fill it up and here I am sitting and thinking to myself "lmao we ain't even in tuning yet nigga".

Something to smirk on as we wait for next build. By the way do our T19 bonuses remain the same with prepatch?

[Deleted]

Yeah, I dun goofed. Well then, triple 50% wings and Justicar's Vengeance just the second we peak 60% increased damage. Sounds right.