[Pre-Beta] Vengeance Discussion

[Orloth]

It's actually because Fracture is 500% of your Attack Power, and Soul Cleave is 550% of your Weapon Damage. Two different variables. How they pair up against each other will depend on your gear, and as the third Relic slot is still not unlocked it's more difficult to get our Weapons up to the same ilvl as the rest of our gear.

[grizzlysaurusrex]

Haha good catch. That would do it. I feel silly now--it was even right there in the things I linked.

[Delimit]

Ahh, I wasn't seeing the weapon damage, just the "physical" tag so I was assuming AP since Grizzly called it AP earlier.

Either way, Fracture still hits harder.

[grizzlysaurusrex]

Ya I just assumed AP...

We still need to figure out why one of the strikes hits for so much less than the other despite the databases saying they should do the same... unless I missed something there too...

[Orloth]

It could be because one counts main hand WD and the other counts off hand WD, but there's no way I know of that the tooltip would distinguish that. It's always just "Weapon Damage". Off hand is roughly half of Main Hand at base, but has the same AP scaling.

[grizzlysaurusrex]

That would do it then. Mystery solved.

[Munkky]

Also if anyone was wondering about Damage wise, this is what the tooltip says using the premade lv 110 pvp realm char, note the soul cleave arti talent wasn't unlocked yet for 15% more damage on Soul cleave.

Shear: 45,183
Soul Cleave: 64,832 - (74,556 witht the arti talent thats not unlocked right now)
Felblade: 88,035
Fracture: 98,564
Immolation Aura : 50,718+69,162 over 6 sec

This is before the Demon Spikes buff. Also on my logs, I didn't force any fractures or anything into Demon Spike uptimes. I simply used it as needed as I was more focused on learning the fight than dpsing, which is why i barely used Fel Devastation/Fel Eruption.

[Orloth]

The tier is now completely utility now, not a bad thing.

Vengeance Demon Hunters – Several talents revised.

I wonder if the definition of 'several' has changed recently. If someone finds any actual revisions you'll let us know, right?

[Munkky]

Due to the nerfs to both Brand and Spikes, that whole row is now pretty much pointless in raid... The Razor Spikes could be used as a slow which could be nice for certain encounters. Sigil of Misery is unchanged and highly subjective, and Brand is just a teleport, so in a raiding environment it just depends on your strat really. There shouldn't be a "cookie cutter" talent in that row anymore.

[GameFX]

The tier is now completely utility now, not a bad thing.

Vengeance Demon Hunters – Several talents revised.

I wonder if the definition of 'several' has changed recently. If someone finds any actual revisions you'll let us know, right?

I know Razor Spikes used to increase Physical Damage as well by 20% I thought? Looks like they removed that...Sigil of Misery needs to go the way of the dodo imo....I've never found Fear to be a good spell to be used in PvE - ever.

[grizzlysaurusrex]

Brand would be good for fights like Imperator or Iron Juggernaut, or any fight where a priority add spawns on the other side of the room like Siegecrafter. With its duration equaling its cooldown and the cooldown resetting when the target dies, it might as well just have no cooldown and "Limit 1". If it's an issue in PVP they can give it a cooldown there.

[Delimit]

Did Razor Spikes really deserve any nerfs? 20% is a pretty heavy hit, even with 40-50% uptime. While our damage output was pretty decent, (when using damage increasing talents, meh otherwise) it was still nowhere near what Druids were doing. (Paladins too I think?)

[Munkky]

Unless they decide to buff the rest of our abilities, the only thing it changed gameplay wise was using it for fracture/fel eruption/fel cleave to increase burst dps. Compared to Druid/Pally DH is lower dps by far. To make this row purely Utility that is extremely limited in each occasion, its gonna feel like Live blood dk with gorefiends grasp on non trash fights.

[Orloth]

I would rather they just buffed our damage universally (or nerfed the other classes) then have our damage tied to a talent where its competitors are purely utilitarian. Now, all three options are situationally viable where as before it would have been Razor Spikes or be laughed out of the Raid for wanting the ability to teleport. This is why throughput talents need to be on throughput tiers, and not scattered all over the place (like they currently are in tiers 1,3,4, and 5. Still.).

[Cooper]

I do not like these changes in the most recent build.

I also do not understand why they are putting talents that seem much more PvP oriented (teleport, snare) in with the PvE talents. Then again, Blizzard seems to really want to push people into PvP this expansion.

[Yorgl]

I do not like these changes in the most recent build.

I also do not understand why they are putting talents that seem much more PvP oriented (teleport, snare) in with the PvE talents. Then again, Blizzard seems to really want to push people into PvP this expansion.

While I don't agree on the TP part (i LOVE my Transfer as a current monk ^^), I'm with you regading snare. I stoped cutting edge raiding since T15, but the last encounter I can remember where snare was usueful is Spine of DW (ugh...).
Edit : Ok there I remember there was Tortos, with the kiting strat, I guess. But still meh.

So yeah, not really found of that talent now. If it has to has a utility, I'd rather have something like "Demon Spike reduce IA cooldown by 1 sec on each use", of example. (Just an idea on top of my head. But the snare really sounds weak. :/ )

[Cooper]

While I don't agree on the TP part (i LOVE my Transfer as a current monk ^^), I'm with you regading snare. I stoped cutting edge raiding since T15, but the last encounter I can remember where snare was usueful is Spine of DW (ugh...).
Edit : Ok there I remember there was Tortos, with the kiting strat, I guess. But still meh.

Eh, but Vengeance already also has Infernal Strike, and how often are you going to be more than thirty yards away from the boss as a tank?

Come to think of it, is the teleport on Brand of the Hunt limited to the thirty yard range, or is it just the initial brand is limited to targets within thirty yards? Because if the teleport is limited, that makes the talent inferior to Infernal Strike, since Infernal Strike moves you and does damage, whereas BotH just moves you but costs a talent. Even if the other talents in the tier are so lackluster that one may feel they're not missing out on anything.

[Damonharp]

Fights where tanks need to run out of range of the raid are actually not that uncommon, and teleporting to a target can be vastly useful.

Just off the top of my head that would be useful for:
A) Fel Reaver and artillery
B) Kormrock (especially Mythic) and his swat
C) Mythic Council (mostly positioning during blademasters whirl, and running back in after you get reap so boss doesn't move)
D) Iskar, after getting chakram or winds
E) Mannoroth pushback.

And that's just this tier, Mythic Kromog you could transcend down and not get grasped by hands, getting to oregorger faster after roll phase without needing to worry about LoS.

Seriously the list goes on

[Munkky]

Ok so I went on Alpha and looked at what all is entailed with Brand of the Hunt.
30yrd range 1 min cd

When it is cast it turns into "The Hunt"
30yrd range 30 sec cd

When "Brand of the Hunt" Comes off cd it will replace "The Hunt" BUT the cd on "The Hunt" is not refreshed. Brand shares an internal GCD with Fiery Brand for some reason and due to this, you have to wait a gcd to cast the actual teleport. This also means you can only get 2 casts of "The Hunt" per cast of Brand. Although the cd of brand does reset if the target dies so you can recast it sooner. Just keep in mind that The Hunt has its own seperate cd in the background, even if you wait to cast Brand.

For example:
Cast Brand, 1 min cd
cast The Hunt 30 sec cd
45 seconds later cast The Hunt again. At this point Brand is at 15 seconds left on cd, The hunt was just cast with 30 sec cd
Brand comes off cd, immediately cast
The hunt still has 15 seconds left on cd.

TLDR: Brand gives you a teleport every 30 seconds thats reliant on a single target debuff only castable on an enemy every 1 min or when that enemy dies.

P.S. It teleports you to the FRONT of the enemy not the back like Shadowstep.

[grizzlysaurusrex]

Still useful but not as good as I was initially imagining. Does it look cool?