[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Soikona]

Don't panic about the damage yet. It sucks for the testing, but they haven't balanced it.

Nah seriously, no reason to panic about that at this point. Though i am sure the flawed mechanics that Blizz cooked up are partially responsible. Ergh... i don't get why they are so stubburn sometimes. Would be so much simpler for judgement to be a buff. They sure like to complicate things.

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Wow... i totally forgot about that little guy. Was he stunnable really? I remember him doing some spinny bladestorm thing but thats about it. Been such a long time.
I didn't raid Dragon soul so the other one i missed completely.

Was the second boss in ToT, can't remember the name, stunned at some point?

Regarding Equality, would it not just be better if we used bubble it did the damage of the missing health? Or any damage you take during bubble would be absorbed and when bubble expires, it would reflect that damage to all enemies in a certain range?

Anything but the current version would be better!

[Deleted]

"Bringing back the RNG"

That's wrong. Divine purpose might be a proc, but you can easily assume how many times it will proc during a fight, based on the spenders you actually use and on the procs on itself. Let'z say the fight lasts 7 Minutes, you will use your spender 30 times, you will have ~6 procs. Maybe 5, maybe 7, maybe 13. But you will have 13 procs every 200th fight. So you can easily estimate the benefit from this talent and the DPS you get from it in comparison with the other talents ofc.

[Deleted]

I find quit entertaining how everyone seems to be delighted to see DP return. I can remember times when every one was glad that we were able to get ride of it. Reading the last 2 pages you could think DP is the best thing since sliced bread...
Don´t understand me wrong it is a tremendous improvement over greater blessings but it is still nothing awesome compared to other things we were offered during earlier betas like FV affected by our seal. It shows once again a strategy of offering us a big steaming turd for lunch and then replacing it with an old bread crust and we as starving beggars are thankful for it.

Anyway does someone else see the judgement change as a straight nerf? Also taking away our option to give a damn about our crap mastery?

I honestly don't think that Blizzard is THIS much ignorant to Rets, i highly doubt that after pushing the new Niche on us being low mobile, but hard hitting ST melee class, they will let us sit at the bottom of the DPS meters.

Oh I do trust them to do exactly this and yes I also do trust them to let us sit just above the tanks. We do have a history of this.
"let us nerf ret execute they are middle of the pack! Can´t have that!" or "Well Mists will go live in a couple of weeks and ret is doing ok. Can´t have that!" *nerfbat hits ret critical*

[Animefreak3K]

https://www.twitch.tv/drownlord/v/63281930 (german)

00:00 - 27:00 PvE Rotation (Dummy+Talk)
27:00 - 1:00:00 PvP (Skirmish 2s)

[ruiizu]

Honestly HW has to become instant or not to share locked out time with out holy spells (aka bubble), in order for it to be viable for PvP, since atm DP is too good to pass up especially if DP procs will work for 5 HP JV strikes, instant heal + high dmg attack proc for PvP, this is pretty sexy if you ask me.
Did you guys notice how Blizzard removed (lvl 30 talents) judgement dmg buff from Greater judgement talent and instead reduced its cd by 2 seconds, thoughts?

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I actually rather have instant WOG that does not cost HPs than hard cast heal, since the only time i really hard cast in rated pvp when it is 1v1 and i rather not get to that point, so from PvP pov i agree with you :P even though generally i very dislike hard casting heals in PvP so my opinion is biased, other PvP rets may think otherwise

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P.S. I wouldn't worry about Holly Palla doing more dmg than Rets atm, if you remember during WOD beta Shockodins were OP there were even 2s skrimish videos where they just tore ppl apart, and now look at them :P, the moral of the story when ever Hpals do good dmg on alpha or beta, just ignore it cuz it will never make live )

I think they should consider something like Word of Glory being baseline again, and having a talent in its place that causes your Holy Power spenders to make your next Word of Glory free. Basically the cost of WoG becomes the GCD, but only if you have that talent (just like Justicar's Vengeance trades a small amount of damage for a bunch of healing, relatively balanced). Of course, there might be an issue with the CD of WoG being so high with that kind of talent. Maybe a CD reduction from it as well?

[Teleros]

Another of my walls o' text incoming, but with stupid numbers at the bottom for those worried about Ret burst / DPS in PvP.

= + =

No one is forcing you to heal them, but you asking for their flat removal shows how stupid the argument is and why blizzard does not want to listen to you.

This.

Healing is a core part of the paladin identity, and has been since Warcraft 2 came out. It's also a key tool for Blizzard when it comes to avoiding class homogenisation (remind me how many people here are complaining about being given hand-me-downs from Arms Warriors ATM...?).

Certainly Retribution is the most offensive-orientated type of paladin, and its abilities should reflect that*, but like Reg said when all's said and done you're still a paladin.

*I'm not sure they necessarily do at the moment, seeing as they're mostly identical if not inferior versions of the same tools Holy & Prot have, but that's another topic entirely.

This is why the game has become shit. ever since blizz started the clippping and homogenized everyone theres no identity to the classes and specs and people like this community seem to enjoy being copy pastes of everyone else. Blizzard has finally realised how stupid that was and is taking it back to when the game was ACTUALLY fun instead of speccing into dps and tunneling the boss for 5 minutes like everyone else.

Actually, I think Blizzard made a mistake in not starting with homogenised classes and then differentiating them.

By this I mean, you make a list of all the tools needed for a particular role, then make sure each class/spec doing that particular role has those tools. So every melee has an interrupt, every ranged has at least one escape tool, every tank has a 50% DR cooldown, etc. Then, once you've made sure every spec has this core toolkit, you set about making them as unlike each other as you want. The mages get more escape tools but the warlocks are tanky. The paladins get their healing and defensive utility whilst the warriors get more offensive tools, et cetera et cetera.

+ + +

BTW ret's damage seems to be complete shit ATM compared to everyone else now, a holy paladin's crusader strike does 6 times my crusader strike's damage meanwhile he can holy shock me every 6 seconds for 3 times the damage of my TV. PVP atm is so out of whack i cant even reliably test new skills because im dead in 2 seconds and i cant kill anything anymore.

Working as intended.

Oh come on. Of course I had to use a line like that .

= + =

You are wrong. There is no support role in WoW. There hasnt been since Vanilla and TBC.

Reghame isn't actually arguing for that :P .

Hard casting heals isn't something a melee should be doing. It's not even viable to do so outside pvp and maybe 5 mans because you only got 1 healer. In raids? Impossible.

Well, ideally the healer(s) would cover everything, but I'd rather lose a few seconds of DPS and save someone than the other way round. But again, this is why I don't consider Ret healing to be utility (in PvE): it's a case of "in case of emergency, break glass", rather than, say "after Bob's PW: Barrier fade, Nemmar use your Divine Sac" kind of real, reliable utility.

Not saying that there couldn't be heals, but these can't come at the cost of damage wich is the role you need to fill in group content.

Heals at the expense of damage is fine IMHO. Real utility at the expense of it (see above)... not so much. Although again, spending a GCD for utility purposes is fine.

= + =

What exactly do people think healer is doing when someone is dying and needs heals fast? Ignore it and wait for dps to use their pathetic crap to save the guy or instantly react to save him themselves, using cds and big stuff? What happens when dps interferes? Healer wastes their cd, mana and time and because dps neglected his job to interfere with healers job the fight is prolonged and healer has to heal longer, but with less mana and cds... on top of longer fights meaning more room for mistakes etc...

See, I think this is where you're going wrong, in that your argument is too theoretical, whereas the real world is messier. In the real world, the healers may have higher priority targets to heal, or they may simply react slowly. Several healers might try to rescue the same guy, resulting in overhealing just as if a DPS had tried to rescue said person alongside a healer.

Furthermore, unless you're in a very short fight ("kill add before it casts") or are spamming heals all the time as a Ret (!), your healing won't make a blind bit of difference to the fight duration, because there's a ton of RNG built into the game already. A few hard-cast Flashes of Light can be easily made up for by a lucky crit streak by you or someone else, or simply by your auto-attacks hitting for above-average numbers.

Like I said, I don't consider Ret PvE healing as true utility because it's so unreliable, in that you never know if or when it will be used at all. Good utility you can factor into the fight - like Smoke Bomb, or Hand of Protection, or whatever. But all the same, you shouldn't make the mistake of assuming that because in an ivory tower the healer(s) will always be on the ball, that they will be on the ball in the real world. WoW players are human, and humans make mistakes. All the time.

= + =

DP also can proc from itself (like on Live).
The Duration is now 9 secons (instead of 8 on Live).

Sounds good. With Greater Judgement and a moderate amount of haste (10% and up) you should be able to save DP procs in between Judgement windows at least some of the time. If you can't, then oh well, just hit JV anyway and accept the reduced damage.

DP does not work with WoG (It still doesn't uses HP - Still buggy).
DP does not work with Seal of Light.
DP does not work with Execution Sentence.

I'd assume these are bugs, except maybe Seal of Light. How many HP should a DP Seal of Light be assumed to use? All 5? Just 1?

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[QUOTE=Ulthane;40047941]what is the coefficient on JV?[/COLOR]
A while back I calculated it as around 500% weapon damage. Unless it's been hit with a stealth nerfbat that should still be true, meaning you should always be using DP procs to cast JV rather than TV (ignoring ES for now, can't remember how it compares to JV, though I think it's more powerful, right?).

= + =

On the subject of the most recent changes... hmm.

1. Greater Judgement nerf hopefully makes the other two choices (or at least Fires of Justice) viable for something. To get 100% uptime on the Judgement debuff requires either 33% or 40% haste, depending on whether the reduction is from the baseline cooldown (12secs) or the talented one (10secs). Either way though, I doubt we'll see that much haste for a while, if ever.

2. Equality is still junk, because Equality.

3. Holy Wrath damage buffed again, whew. Really need to be able to cast it (a) on the move and (b) in the face of interrupts however - its damage can be tuned later.

4. Divine Purpose is back. Bit scared about it for burst reasons (*glances at Justicar's Vengeance*), and it's still possible to have a proc-less Ret paladin (urgh), but hopefully it'll be a nice, competitive choice. I imagine it'll be the default choice in PvE, unless HW is just that strong.

Potential burst damage:

T=0.0 = 5HP (eg Wake of Ashes or HW), 0.1sec off GCD due to haste, Judge target
T=1.4 = JV, DP proc
T=2.8 = JV, DP proc
T=4.2 = JV, DP Proc
T=5.6 = JV
T=6.0 = Judgement debuff fades

Assume JV does 500% weapon damage...

1. 4 hits = 2k% weapon damage
2. 4 crits = 4k% weapon damage
3. 4 crits, stunned target = 8k% weapon damage
4. 4 crits, stunned target, wings = 10.8k% weapon damage
5. 4 crits, stunned target, wings, retribution = 16.2k% weapon damage
6. 4 crits, stunned target, wings, retribution, +28% from Judgement (minimum value with 0 Mastery) = ...

...

...

...

wait for it...

...

20,736% Holy weapon damage.

Now, Animefreak3k said 100% weapon damage in PvP was 36,755 damage (calculating backwards from the figures he gave for TV etc). He (a tauren paladin) had 2.4M health.

20,736% Holy weapon damage thus works out at 7,621,517 damage.

+ + +

Look Blizzard. Back in WotLK you said it was bad that a Ret paladin could start an arena match, stun someone, pop wings, and hit them with a freight train approximately 3 seconds into a match.

This is not like that.

This is not like hitting someone with a freight train.

This is like hitting someone with a supertanker. Filled with depleted uranium. At half the speed of light.

+

Now, some of you will say "eh, it'll never happen". There is a 0.8% chance of getting the three back-to-back DP procs necessary for this. Even if you halve the damage (eg non-stunned target), you will still kill a full health PvP player in that window. Heck, let's halve the damage again, and say none of the JV hits crit - or that they crit, but you only get 2 of them off, rather than all 4. Well, that's still 1.9M damage, which is absurd.

BTW, did I mention that I used the minimum value for the Ret mastery?

+

So, what lessons can we draw from this?

1. Ret nerfs inc.
2. Ret nerfs inc.
3. Ret nerfs inc.

= + =

Sometimes I wonder. I really do.

[Snegovik]

Oh I do trust them to do exactly this and yes I also do trust them to let us sit just above the tanks. We do have a history of this.
"let us nerf ret execute they are middle of the pack! Can´t have that!" or "Well Mists will go live in a couple of weeks and ret is doing ok. Can´t have that!" *nerfbat hits ret critical*

Yes i know what you are saying, hell i said same thing multiple times ))), but let's hope or assume for a second Blizzard is not going to nub out for 100% on us, before they would justify our crap sustain by saying "oh u have OP instant heals" or "you have high mobility, so u can be on target 24/7" but in Legion we lost it all, mobility, and instant heals, so if they going to let our dmg fall on par with tanks, then blizzard will discover a new horizon of nubness and lets hope for all of our sakes, that land will remain hidden from Blizzard. But in case you right and blizzard will spread Ret's butt chick and ram it with a nerf bet, well ill just roll DH, problem solved

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I think they should consider something like Word of Glory being baseline again, and having a talent in its place that causes your Holy Power spenders to make your next Word of Glory free. Basically the cost of WoG becomes the GCD, but only if you have that talent (just like Justicar's Vengeance trades a small amount of damage for a bunch of healing, relatively balanced). Of course, there might be an issue with the CD of WoG being so high with that kind of talent. Maybe a CD reduction from it as well?

Ya i like the idea that HP spenders have X% to make WOG free of costs/resert cd, i think that would be cool, but it would be too nice, and we all know Rets never get to keep nice new toys. But i like the idea none the less ))) and it would add offensive game style for Rets in PvP (which is our only game style, we gotta play offensive or we lose), the more we dps, the higher chance we get those instant WOGs.

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https://www.twitch.tv/drownlord/v/63281930 (german)

00:00 - 27:00 PvE Rotation (Dummy+Talk)
27:00 - 1:00:00 PvP (Skirmish 2s)

Not to be an asshole or anything, but i couldnt watch his stream beyond 3 skrimishes, his pvp skills make me want to kill a kitten and a puppy...sigh XD

[Animefreak3K]

Not to be an asshole or anything, but i couldnt watch his stream beyond 3 skrimishes, his pvp skills make me want to kill a kitten and a puppy...sigh XD

What's your Problem? Testing > all.

Also as Reghame said some posts before, PvP atm is fucked up.

[Ciric-Wildhammer]

[QUOTE=Teleros;40054740]Another of my walls o' text incoming, but with stupid numbers at the bottom for those worried about Ret burst / DPS in PvP.

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This.

Healing is a core part of the paladin identity, and has been since Warcraft 2 came out. It's also a key tool for Blizzard when it comes to avoiding class homogenisation (remind me how many people here are complaining about being given hand-me-downs from Arms Warriors ATM...?).

Certainly Retribution is the most offensive-orientated type of paladin, and its abilities should reflect that*, but like Reg said when all's said and done you're still a paladin.

*I'm not sure they necessarily do at the moment, seeing as they're mostly identical if not inferior versions of the same tools Holy & Prot have, but that's another topic entirely.


Actually, I think Blizzard made a mistake in not starting with homogenised classes and then differentiating them.

By this I mean, you make a list of all the tools needed for a particular role, then make sure each class/spec doing that particular role has those tools. So every melee has an interrupt, every ranged has at least one escape tool, every tank has a 50% DR cooldown, etc. Then, once you've made sure every spec has this core toolkit, you set about making them as unlike each other as you want. The mages get more escape tools but the warlocks are tanky. The paladins get their healing and defensive utility whilst the warriors get more offensive tools, et cetera et cetera.

+ + +


Working as intended.

Oh come on. Of course I had to use a line like that .

= + =


Reghame isn't actually arguing for that :P .


Well, ideally the healer(s) would cover everything, but I'd rather lose a few seconds of DPS and save someone than the other way round. But again, this is why I don't consider Ret healing to be utility (in PvE): it's a case of "in case of emergency, break glass", rather than, say "after Bob's PW: Barrier fade, Nemmar use your Divine Sac" kind of real, reliable utility.


Heals at the expense of damage is fine IMHO. Real utility at the expense of it (see above)... not so much. Although again, spending a GCD for utility purposes is fine.

= + =


See, I think this is where you're going wrong, in that your argument is too theoretical, whereas the real world is messier. In the real world, the healers may have higher priority targets to heal, or they may simply react slowly. Several healers might try to rescue the same guy, resulting in overhealing just as if a DPS had tried to rescue said person alongside a healer.

Furthermore, unless you're in a very short fight ("kill add before it casts") or are spamming heals all the time as a Ret (!), your healing won't make a blind bit of difference to the fight duration, because there's a ton of RNG built into the game already. A few hard-cast Flashes of Light can be easily made up for by a lucky crit streak by you or someone else, or simply by your auto-attacks hitting for above-average numbers.

Like I said, I don't consider Ret PvE healing as true utility because it's so unreliable, in that you never know if or when it will be used at all. Good utility you can factor into the fight - like Smoke Bomb, or Hand of Protection, or whatever. But all the same, you shouldn't make the mistake of assuming that because in an ivory tower the healer(s) will always be on the ball, that they will be on the ball in the real world. WoW players are human, and humans make mistakes. All the time.

= + =


Sounds good. With Greater Judgement and a moderate amount of haste (10% and up) you should be able to save DP procs in between Judgement windows at least some of the time. If you can't, then oh well, just hit JV anyway and accept the reduced damage.


I'd assume these are bugs, except maybe Seal of Light. How many HP should a DP Seal of Light be assumed to use? All 5? Just 1?

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what is the coefficient on JV?[/COLOR]
A while back I calculated it as around 500% weapon damage. Unless it's been hit with a stealth nerfbat that should still be true, meaning you should always be using DP procs to cast JV rather than TV (ignoring ES for now, can't remember how it compares to JV, though I think it's more powerful, right?).

= + =

On the subject of the most recent changes... hmm.

1. Greater Judgement nerf hopefully makes the other two choices (or at least Fires of Justice) viable for something. To get 100% uptime on the Judgement debuff requires either 33% or 40% haste, depending on whether the reduction is from the baseline cooldown (12secs) or the talented one (10secs). Either way though, I doubt we'll see that much haste for a while, if ever.

2. Equality is still junk, because Equality.

3. Holy Wrath damage buffed again, whew. Really need to be able to cast it (a) on the move and (b) in the face of interrupts however - its damage can be tuned later.

4. Divine Purpose is back. Bit scared about it for burst reasons (*glances at Justicar's Vengeance*), and it's still possible to have a proc-less Ret paladin (urgh), but hopefully it'll be a nice, competitive choice. I imagine it'll be the default choice in PvE, unless HW is just that strong.

Potential burst damage:

T=0.0 = 5HP (eg Wake of Ashes or HW), 0.1sec off GCD due to haste, Judge target
T=1.4 = JV, DP proc
T=2.8 = JV, DP proc
T=4.2 = JV, DP Proc
T=5.6 = JV
T=6.0 = Judgement debuff fades

Assume JV does 500% weapon damage...

1. 4 hits = 2k% weapon damage
2. 4 crits = 4k% weapon damage
3. 4 crits, stunned target = 8k% weapon damage
4. 4 crits, stunned target, wings = 10.8k% weapon damage
5. 4 crits, stunned target, wings, retribution = 16.2k% weapon damage
6. 4 crits, stunned target, wings, retribution, +28% from Judgement (minimum value with 0 Mastery) = ...

...

...

...

wait for it...

...

20,736% Holy weapon damage.

Now, Animefreak3k said 100% weapon damage in PvP was 36,755 damage (calculating backwards from the figures he gave for TV etc). He (a tauren paladin) had 2.4M health.

20,736% Holy weapon damage thus works out at 7,621,517 damage.

+ + +

Look Blizzard. Back in WotLK you said it was bad that a Ret paladin could start an arena match, stun someone, pop wings, and hit them with a freight train approximately 3 seconds into a match.

This is not like that.

This is not like hitting someone with a freight train.

This is like hitting someone with a supertanker. Filled with depleted uranium. At half the speed of light.

+

Now, some of you will say "eh, it'll never happen". There is a 0.8% chance of getting the three back-to-back DP procs necessary for this. Even if you halve the damage (eg non-stunned target), you will still kill a full health PvP player in that window. Heck, let's halve the damage again, and say none of the JV hits crit - or that they crit, but you only get 2 of them off, rather than all 4. Well, that's still 1.9M damage, which is absurd.

BTW, did I mention that I used the minimum value for the Ret mastery?

+

So, what lessons can we draw from this?

1. Ret nerfs inc.
2. Ret nerfs inc.
3. Ret nerfs inc.

= + =

Sometimes I wonder. I really do.

DP will most likely only work on 3hp skills later. The dmg of JV will be turned down greatly and we will be hitting like a foam bat soon enough, have no worries.

Meanwhile, those pesky wizards will have cruise missiles and hunters with red seeking auto kill machines.

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[QUOTE]

Not to be an asshole or anything, but i couldnt watch his stream beyond 3 skrimishes, his pvp skills make me want to kill a kitten and a puppy...sigh XD

I didn't make it past "retri"

[Yardu]

Sorry dude, but i just don't know what you are on about. I have read your posts and i still have no idea what you are on about. As i said, if its the role thing, then you are in denial.
If its something else then it's unrelated to what i was talking about. Maybe you are reading something in my post that isn't there? No idea. You need to try and give a bit more context, because i don't see anything wrong.

As for the flashes... if its coming at the cost of damage then you are doing it wrong. If you are saving people, your healers are doing it wrong. I got no problems whatsoever. ^^
We are talking about a raid context. Do keep that in mind. In a 5 man with your buddies or a challenge mode, your heal gains importance. But in a raid context your heal is an insult to the healers. Hope you come to understand that.
I have no idea what your point is, but the instant heal is something you could use as a melee (though preferably only on dead spots in the rotation). So... i didnt dispute that?

Lets see... i applaud your spirit of wanting to help your raid anyway you can... but in fact you aren't working at the best efficiency as a team when you do that healing at the cost of damage. The healer has to be able to heal the raid. The encounter is designed that way. The only things that are unhealable are mistakes. A flash does not fix mistakes, nor it should. Nor is it obviously a sustainable strategy.
I would sugest you try leading a raid, making strategies and analysing the raid performance. I think those would help you grow as a player and see the real value your heals have.
Your instant heal may save someone in a blue moon... but what about next time? The point i did make is that having instant tools, like a hand spell or a BoP, is what your "support" is about. But your role is damage dealer. Never forget that.

Sorry dude, but i just don't know what you are on about. I have read your posts and i still have no idea what you are on about.

You managed to reply to them even though you don't know what they were saying? That's simply because you didn't read but maybe a sentence or two.

As for the flashes... if its coming at the cost of damage then you are doing it wrong. If you are saving people, your healers are doing it wrong. I got no problems whatsoever. ^^

Raided last night in a pug. Sent my friend a crit flash of light. Was instant. Took 2sec. He went from less than 10% HP to near half health. Healers would not have been able to save him. Next boss on gorefiwnd I lay on handed the tank. Both heals were instant and saved someone from dying. Your 2sec of DPS is worthless compared to being able to take 2sec and use a CD or instant crit heal to bring someone back up.

you aren't working at the best efficiency as a team when you do that healing at the cost of damage.

Taking a sec to give someone a lay on hand or an instant crit flash of light will not lower your dps in any meaningful way. If it does you are playing your class wrongly. We're not talking about casting heals. I've made that clear in all of my posts. We're talking about an instant heal once or twice a fight. If that lowers your dps then obviously you're not playing your class well.

In fact when I zoned out in a kilrogg pug last night when boosting another friend. The pug was making people take more damage than they should. My other friend that's also boosting asked me for a lay on hand. I look at his name plate and he's below 10%HP. So I click on him but he dies. We killed the boss barely. If I had been paying attention and sent him a LoH then he'd have been alive the entire fight and it would've went much more smoothly. I also can't count the amount of times someone has died 3min into a fight and the boss wipes us at 800kHP. Was infamous on butcher progression. Happened with others though too.

My reply to my friend when he died was: Sorry there's a thread on mmo-champion where someone is saying I shouldn't help you.

I would suggest you try leading a raid, making strategies and analysing the raid performance. I think those would help you grow as a player and see the real value your heals have.

lmao. Not even going to comment on this one.

A lot of others have also told you how you're wrong. I suggest you reply to them. If you want to only do damage as a melee then play warrior.

[Deleted]

Raided last night in a pug. Sent my friend a crit flash of light. Was instant. Took 2sec. He went from less than 10% HP to near half health. Healers would not have been able to save him. Next boss on gorefiwnd I lay on handed the tank. Both heals were instant and saved someone from dying. Your 2sec of DPS is worthless compared to being able to take 2sec and use a CD or instant crit heal to bring someone back up.



Taking a sec to give someone a lay on hand or an instant crit flash of light will not lower your dps in any meaningful way. If it does you are playing your class wrongly. We're not talking about casting heals. I've made that clear in all of my posts. We're talking about an instant heal once or twice a fight. If that lowers your dps then obviously you're not playing your class well.



lmao. Not even going to comment on this one.

A lot of others have also told you how you're wrong. I suggest you reply to them. If you want to only do damage as a melee then play warrior.

Proved my point! Thanks.
If you want to heal people go ahead, but in a serious raid, as i said before that is irrelevant and you aren't maximising performance. This whole situation where your heal saves someone is a falacy. Ofc it can save someone if the stars align, but it isn't your job to do so and it should't be necessary. If it is, there is a more serious problem that needs adressing. What do you call utility that is unecessary?
This is not about "oh teammate was gonna die and i saved him. Awesome utility!". Sure, you saved him that time. What about next time? What about when you don't have selfless healer? You gonna hardcast a heal to save him. When are you going to understand that you are not the healer and that isn't your job? You should'nt be casting a heal, you should be getting better healers. Either that or you should trust your healers cause they probably know more about the damage output in the fight than you. Though in a pug... yeah...

Others have said i was right actually, or didn't get i was making it clear that the support role doesn't exist, because despite everything Reg did yell that in full caps trying to shove dps oriented paladin's away when their concerns are legitimate. But i really don't need anyone's aproval. I know what is required to kill mythic bosses in end game. You go around loling around on pugs. Different gameplay situation and different pov. In your world your flash can save a friend. In my world it can't be relied on so i'd rather something more meaningful.
Sadly there won't even be that option in legion. Wich is why i guess many would rather trade off the hard cast for something useful. It's a legitimate concern that should'nt be shoved away.
You want healing to be considered utility, then it needs to be more useable than it is.

This is the whole point and you have been freaking out about god knows why and trying to have a go at me. I recommend relaxation and some time to cooldown.

[Yardu]

Proved my point! Thanks.
If you want to heal people go ahead, but in a serious raid, as i said before that is irrelevant and you aren't maximising performance. This whole situation where your heal saves someone is a falacy. Ofc it can save someone if the stars align, but it isn't your job to do so and it should't be necessary. What do you call utility that is unecessary?

Others have said i was right actually, or didn't get i was making it clear that the support role doesn't exist. But i really don't need anyone's aproval. I know what is required to kill mythic bosses in top end. You go around loling around on pugs. Different gameplay situation.

The pug situation is an example. I often refer to pugs as "progression simulator" jokingly but there are some similarities. I have also stressed in most of my posts that your utility is most beneficial in progression. That it's the end of the game. Most people have done all their gearing/progressing so that makes the utility situations rare. Which others have agreed with and mentioned.

This whole situation where your heal saves someone is a falacy.

Ofc it can save someone if the stars align

You obviously have your own thinking behind this and really it feels like talking to a brick wall.

There are many moments in progression where your utility is useful. However what I've found is that for every person that agrees with you there is someone that disagrees.

However I will say that there are many times during progression where I was thinking "should I LoH him?" while having a lot of shit to avoid myself. Even when tanking often your attempt just doesn't go as well as it did on paper. Maybe your healer is about to die. Someone always or very often messes up in progression. Meanwhile your healers can already have their hands full. The tanks taking a lot of damage. Why not throw a LoH onto the healer so that they can focus on keeping the tank alive? And this isn't some weird example. It's happened a lot in progression for me. And everytime I'm always going to throw my LoH to bring that person up because what they can do is more beneficial that what my 2sec of dps can do.

Sure, you saved him that time. What about next time? What about when you don't have selfless healer? You gonna hardcast a heal to save him. When are you going to understand that you are not the healer and that isn't your job. You should'nt be casting a heal, you shouod be getting better healers.

This proves you do not read lmao. In almost every post I said I would not hard cast heals. However you keep mentioning hard casting heals. As if I'm standing in the back of the raid CASTING flash of light on people. Taking 2sec out of the fight to INSTANTLY crit heal or LoH someone is not going to be harmful to your dps.

Sure, you saved him that time. What about next time? What about when you don't have selfless healer

If I saved him that time then guess what? The amount of usefulness that person has to the raid is therefore more than my 2sec of dps that I lost.

I have repeated myself so many times because you do not read. I'm actually getting sick of it. I have never had to constantly heal someone. I never will. If that person is saved by 2sec of my time then that is more beneficial to the raid than my dps.

Edit: would also be nice if you would stop editing your posts for an hour and then actually reply.

Edit: once again you keep editing instead of replying.

Edit:

In my world it can't be relied on so i'd rather something more meaningful.

If you actually think your 2sec of dps is more meaningful than saving someone in a raid then really I just don't know how you can't math that out correctly. 2sec of dps vs making someone who's about to die not die. Which in progression happens a lot.

[Deleted]

I edited the previous post to make it easier for you, but i won't be replying to your stuff. Enjoy a cooldown. You need it.

[Yardu]

I edited the previous post to make it easier for you, but i won't be replying to your stuff. Enjoy a cooldown. You need it.

You edited it to make it more condescending. Started out decent but then as the edits roll in you just keep adding more and more condescending things to it as you have been in all of your posts xD.

won't be replying to your stuff.

It's okay I'm used to you not anyways as you actually haven't read half my stuff and I've had to keep on repeating myself. I even wrote out a very long detailed post just for you to ask the same question again. It pretty much went like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHrn_pHW2so

[Snegovik]

What's your Problem? Testing > all.

Also as Reghame said some posts before, PvP atm is fucked up.

I know I know sorry =( testing > all you right, but i just cant watch Bad Rets pvp, because they give me depression and i want to start chugging a battle of vodka that i have in my kitchen.... Testing goes much better when a player can actually play spec good, if a tester plays spec badly, you get an even worst impression of the spec balance, than an actual picture...and yes i am just being an asshole i cant stand watching bad Rets making silly mistakes in PvP (aka charging an unholy DK behind pillar instead of standing on open to hoj boomy asap he comes out from strealth, this just killed me)

[Wrecktangle]

@Wrecktangle I love that concept a ton Holy hell

Thanks! I am one of those players who actually cares about my character thematically and not just numbers. I want to have fun playing, and be competitive. I enjoy having defensive utility and the Paladin archetype. I always thought Holy Power was stupid because it didn't actually do anything thematically for us. We amass this power, but there's no effect? No graphic? We consume it, but the effect/graphic is a basic spin attack. What exactly did the Holy Power do?

It's a pretty cool idea. The sense that reaching maximum power literally causes you to radiate power is a neat one.

Also, been a little while, but I have to say to everyone else: I rolled Paladin because in basically every game, it's a Warrior with some Priest abilities (more specifically heals and undead killing skills). If you seriously reject healing as part of Retribution (or any Paladin variant), you've got a very different idea than I do. I like to play melee that have heals. Paladin not having heals means no thanks.

I'm in a similar boat. I don't necessarily need "heals" per-se, but defensive utility is mandatory. Whether that's shields, mobility, heals, etc. I wouldn't be opposed to trading defensive utility for offensively utility either, as long as it made sense thematically.

But again I always imagined a Ret Paladin as the commander. They use Holy Magic to inspire their allies while fighting along side of them, not mending them from afar.

These greater blessing things are so dumb.

Really Blizz... how difficult is it? Its in the name. Its a greater blessing. A greater blessing should be greater, not individual. This is so easy to fix. Make the blessings 1m cooldowns and have it be mini legendary rings.
This would give us utility and would make for a very fun mechanic that doesnt need to be contrained to these "he dies or i die = some damage gone or some damage gained".
There is no need for this!

Scrap what we got and make it:

All values subject to balancing but just giving the example.

GBoM: Increases the raids damage by 5% for 5 seconds (1m CD).
GBoW: Increases the raids healing (mana regen?) for 5% for 5 seconds (1m CD).
GBoK: Reduced the damage taken by the raid by 5% for 5 seconds (1m CD).

They all share the cooldown.

If too OP, just put a range limit on it or increase the CD. If the damage one is so predictable, make it a shiled based on 5% of the damage. I think the optimum solution is to have it not coincide with the heroism cooldown (aside from the start), otherwise it will be stacked in all cases.

This is so easy to work out. Just reuse the code from the legendary ring. Doesnt even need to have explosions/shields.

Isn't this much better than to be having the damage be affected by he dies or i die and all this? Just keep it simple. Don't complicate things that don't need to be complicated and don't bring any interactive and interesting gameplay in.

I'm not opposed to this idea, but I honestly don't think Ret's should have access to all 3. In fact I've always argued that Ret's should be focused on Might, Prot on Kings, and Wisdom for Holy. Any one spec having access to all 3 I think kind of neuters identity.

While we're discussing this mechanic, I'd even argue that Greater Blessings aren't the optimal avenue. I think since it's group/raid wide now this could easy be called a Aura, or a Seal or something.

---

Aura of Might
Imagine a golden glyph glowing on the ground with the might symbol in the middle. Anyone who steps on it is granted 5% additional damage for 6s and is healed for 4% per second.

Aura of Kings
Imagine a white glyph glowing on the ground with the kings symbol in the middle. Anyone who steps on it is granted a shield for 20% of their max health, and all damage (or just physical/magical) is reduced by 20% for 6s.

Aura of Wisdom
Imagine a azure glyph glowing on the ground with the wisdom symbol in the middle. Anyone who steps on it regenerates 5% mana per second, and all healing they do is increased by 35% for 6s. Alternatively, could swap either effect for maybe a spell speed effect? I.e. Casting faster instead of harder.

The whole idea behind this is that each effect should have 2 main components. I.e. a Retribution's Might is designed to bolster their strength and regenerate their wills to continue fighting (i.e. restore lost health). A Protection's Kings is designed to alleviate pressure of incoming damage, and buy time for healers to get things under control. A Holy's Wisdom is designed reinvigorate a tired team of healers and supplement their power.

Cooldown could be whatever we feel is appropriate. 3 mins? Prevent them from stacking? I.e. put a debuff on people?

@Nemmar that sounds amazing but im pretty sure the dmg one would be used most of the time by progression guilds and will be nerfed qq

Agreed. That's why I posted above. I think that each spec should only have access to one.

Does flash of light work as utility? no it does not, not at the moment i agree.
Does a talented WoG count as possible utility? yes it does.

The problem i have with this entire argument is people asking that "i dont want to heal others" sort of thing.
No one is forcing you to heal them, but you asking for their flat removal shows how stupid the argument is and why blizzard does not want to listen to you.

I think your post is a bit aggressive lol, but I agree with your point. I want to be a beacon of courage for my team. I want to help them fight as long as possible. I don't want to do it from the back line though. I want to do it while fighting aside them. That to me is the fantasy of Ret.

Proved my point! Thanks.
If you want to heal people go ahead, but in a serious raid, as i said before that is irrelevant and you aren't maximising performance. This whole situation where your heal saves someone is a falacy. Ofc it can save someone if the stars align, but it isn't your job to do so and it should't be necessary. If it is, there is a more serious problem that needs adressing. What do you call utility that is unecessary?
This is not about "oh teammate was gonna die and i saved him. Awesome utility!". Sure, you saved him that time. What about next time? What about when you don't have selfless healer? You gonna hardcast a heal to save him. When are you going to understand that you are not the healer and that isn't your job? You should'nt be casting a heal, you should be getting better healers.

Others have said i was right actually, or didn't get i was making it clear that the support role doesn't exist, because despite everything Reg did yell that in full caps trying to shove dps oriented paladin's away when their concerns are legitimate. But i really don't need anyone's aproval. I know what is required to kill mythic bosses in end game. You go around loling around on pugs. Different gameplay situation and different pov. In your world your flash can save a raid. In my world it can't be relied on so i'd rather something more meaningful.
Sadly there won't even be that option in legion. Wich is why i guess many would rather trade off the hard cast for something useful. It's a legitimate concern that should'nt be shoved away.

I think you're discussion is off base. I've saved countless runs with my utility over the years. During progression my LOH is on CD every single pull, trying to see more of a fight. Healers are not perfect they make mistakes and not using the tools I have to alleviate that is playing sub-optimally. There are also a ton of fights where you can't always DPS and off-healing is incredibly valuable during periods of downtime. If I noticed a tanks HP sitting below half for an extended period of time I'd help out with a sac, hoping it would be enough to allow the healers to get things back under control.

If you have no desire to enjoy the fantasy of being a DPS capable of supporting teammates I'd honestly suggest playing a class that is more in-tune with what you like.

If your rebuttal is that I never played in a serious raid you're wrong. I've held quite a few top 10 world parses over the years as a Ret.

[Yardu]

If you have no desire to enjoy the fantasy of being a DPS capable of supporting teammates I'd honestly suggest playing a class that is more in-tune with what you like.

Suggested that to him. His reply was that he plays all classes. No idea what that had to do with anything.

If your rebuttal is that I never played in a serious raid you're wrong. I've held quite a few top 10 world parses over the years as a Ret.

Knowing him his rebuttal will be the same thing it's been with me. "You lay on handed? Go role a healer and stop trying to do their job." or "That'd get you kicked in a serious raid". Or my 2nd favorite reply which is "Your dps is more meaningful than saving someone."

I 100% agree with you though Wrecktangle.

[Teleros]

But again I always imagined a Ret Paladin as the commander. They use Holy Magic to inspire their allies while fighting along side of them, not mending them from afar.

No, that'd make Ret a leader, not a commander. Important difference.

If any paladin spec is a commander / general type, I think it's probably Holy actually. Able to stand well back and direct a battle, whereas a Ret or Prot paladin would be in the thick of it and unable to do so.

(Incidentally, allow me to go on a rant about how all the generals & kings in Warcraft are front line combatants. GTFO and do your job, which is either (a) ruling your entire freaking nation, or (b) directing the course of the entire battle. You cannot do either when you're dead/unconscious/captured/so close to the front line you can only see about 6 yards in any direction...)

Cooldown could be whatever we feel is appropriate. 3 mins? Prevent them from stacking? I.e. put a debuff on people?

No need for a debuff so long as they don't stack. If a group wants to arrange things such that one particular person is the only one to receive the buff, then so be it.

[Reghame]

nemmar your post is invalid about "actual raiding" vs "pug raiding" he saved someone he thought was going to die. the only valid argument you COULD make is if a heal was actually going out but you healed them anyway its always hard to tell when your randomly healing thats true.
but at the same token take a look at some fight encounters out there. if your healing is decent enough healers can actually be supplemented with healers and during key points use said healing CDs and just make it by.

because im sure your going to want an example...... remember my ra-den comment? i replaced 2 healers and we used 3 enh shamans and ret and druid spot heals which overall gave us 2 extra dps of which only the ret and druid actually lost SOME of their dps to heal. Thats good utility and when you can do it, you get to have some fun.

- - - Updated - - -

also the holy paladin thing is weird. They currently actually do have less dps than most healers, but thats dps. outside of holy shock and CS they have no other source of damage. the only problem with this is that holy paladins had the same problem ret had for the longest time is that lacking serious long term damaging abilities makes them have to have their core spells hits too hardd that its way too strong.

For example, once a holy pally pops wings and uses their CSs and shocks on your in PVP your most likely dead for sure. but once thats done, they literally hit rock bottom and occasionally holy shock can do good damage but good lord does it fall off.

[Deleted]

nemmar your post is invalid about "actual raiding" vs "pug raiding" he saved someone he thought was going to die. the only valid argument you COULD make is if a heal was actually going out but you healed them anyway its always hard to tell when your randomly healing thats true.
but at the same token take a look at some fight encounters out there. if your healing is decent enough healers can actually be supplemented with healers and during key points use said healing CDs and just make it by.

because im sure your going to want an example...... remember my ra-den comment? i replaced 2 healers and we used 3 enh shamans and ret and druid spot heals which overall gave us 2 extra dps of which only the ret and druid actually lost SOME of their dps to heal. Thats good utility and when you can do it, you get to have some fun.

- - - Updated - - -

also the holy paladin thing is weird. They currently actually do have less dps than most healers, but thats dps. outside of holy shock and CS they have no other source of damage. the only problem with this is that holy paladins had the same problem ret had for the longest time is that lacking serious long term damaging abilities makes them have to have their core spells hits too hardd that its way too strong.

For example, once a holy pally pops wings and uses their CSs and shocks on your in PVP your most likely dead for sure. but once thats done, they literally hit rock bottom and occasionally holy shock can do good damage but good lord does it fall off.

A healing rain is pretty good and reliable though. Anyways... this is going off topic to the point i made wich was as utility our healing spells are not very good. So, its understandable that people feel like wanting to trade them off by something more useful.
In mythic dps checks can be very tight though. So, this is all very situational. In situation A it can be a good idea, but in most situations probably not. I can heal aswell... and as a healer i don't want the dps to be healing for me. Healers have all the tools they need to heal the raid. If people in your raid are dieing... you can't just say: Ok ret paladins and enhancement shamans save the people who are about to die. That is a bit awkward isnt it? If the person dies all the same. We gonna blame the Ret's and enhancements for there not beeing enough healing? It's a bit bonkers if you ask me.

The problems from deaths are 1. Person messed up mechanic 2. Your raid doesnt have enough healing 3. Your raid doesnt have enough dps. Sure, you can throw in the random heal as DPS, but its not gonna solve these underlying issues. You aren't going to kill bosses just once. Its a weekly event.
The sitution you described makes me think your raid tried to solve the problem with DPS before things go hairy. So, it wasn't so much the healing rains and divine storms but the extra DPS that helped you there. That is the whole point of DPSíng though. To make the healers job easier, the best thing you can do for them is kill the boss faster. That is what healers want.

- - - Updated - - -

I think you're discussion is off base. I've saved countless runs with my utility over the years. During progression my LOH is on CD every single pull, trying to see more of a fight. Healers are not perfect they make mistakes and not using the tools I have to alleviate that is playing sub-optimally. There are also a ton of fights where you can't always DPS and off-healing is incredibly valuable during periods of downtime. If I noticed a tanks HP sitting below half for an extended period of time I'd help out with a sac, hoping it would be enough to allow the healers to get things back under control.

If you have no desire to enjoy the fantasy of being a DPS capable of supporting teammates I'd honestly suggest playing a class that is more in-tune with what you like.

If your rebuttal is that I never played in a serious raid you're wrong. I've held quite a few top 10 world parses over the years as a Ret.

I think you are making alot of asumptions here.

First, i was talking about healing as utility, not the actual utility spells. Second, i did not advocate for the removal of healing or utility. I advocated that there is no such thing as a supporter role and that instead of hard cast heals we could get other better ways of offering utility with healing (the healing hand that got removed recently for example), as currently it is very limited to Lay on hands wich is on a 10m CD. Selfless healer flash is extremely situational and unreliable and really can't be considered. It's also getting removed so, no point there.
There is nothing off-base to what i say, and it's actually constructive, unlike other comments.

Actually every class offers utility. The whole reasoning that this is somehow singular to the retribution Paladin is disengenious.