[HOLY] Holy Sh*t!: Legion Edition

[EzG]

It's better than nothing. ;_; Also the new talents were supposed to be in for this testing right?

No they didn't make it into this build. Probably next one. Although even with those changes I'm not sure anything would change all too much. LH might be chosen more than the holy bolt replacement, buffed wings probably over judgment of light and even the stoicism change, but it's too early to draw conclusions.

- - - Updated - - -

I have a couple of questions about the on-use ability for the holy paladin weapon.
When you cast Tyr's Deliverance, it puts a buff on your character which says, "Healing an injured ally for X every Y sec" (screenshot here).

Here are my questions:
Is this a smart heal that will just heal the most injured person in the part/raid ?
Can this be dispelled off of you?
Should it be used during aoe dmg (when is the optimal time to use it)?
Can you cast in someone else? (I've tried and it always puts the buff on my character).


In the dungeons that I've run it feels VERY lackluster...maybe that's just me. If anyone has any answers, I'd really appreciate it!
Thanks!

It seems to be a smart heal as it generate next to no overhealing unless people are simply not taking damage. Not sure if it can be dispelled. It wouldn't make sense to use it for anything other than aoe heals because should you "try" to get it only on tanks who are the only ones taking damage at that particular time, if someone took 4% damage for whatever reason, there could be a chance it could stop on the tanks and heal that 4% on that person and probably overheal too. The buff is cast on you and heals other people.

TL;DR It is completely and utterly terrible.

[mcbubble]

It seems to be a smart heal as it generate next to no overhealing unless people are simply not taking damage. Not sure if it can be dispelled. It wouldn't make sense to use it for anything other than aoe heals because should you "try" to get it only on tanks who are the only ones taking damage at that particular time, if someone took 4% damage for whatever reason, there could be a chance it could stop on the tanks and heal that 4% on that person and probably overheal too. The buff is cast on you and heals other people.

TL;DR It is completely and utterly terrible.

Thanks so much EzG!

Unfortunately I feel the same way about the on use ability, so much so that I probably will never use it (not sure if that's wise or not).

Do you know if there has been any feedback on the proc? (either from the playerbase or wow developers)?

[Deleted]

would be nice if power of the silver hand was an active ability. whether it's worth the keybind, i don't know. elite traits are still underwhelming

[Emojuice]

Question about The Light Saves if anyone gets bored enough. How does this work with beacon of faith? I'm guessing each beacon just gets a separate 30 sec cd?

Also Holy Paladin – Tyr’s Deliverance also increases further healing from Holy Light and Flash of Light on affected targets.

Light of the Martyr is 50% now instead of 60%

[tallulah]

I can't wait to see some stream or something. A lot of change this patch,not sure I like them, how does it feel in the beta?

[Deleted]

Question about The Light Saves if anyone gets bored enough. How does this work with beacon of faith? I'm guessing each beacon just gets a separate 30 sec cd?

They share cd, when it procs you get a debuff for 30s that prevents is procing again.

[Emojuice]

They share cd, when it procs you get a debuff for 30s that prevents is procing again.

Well that's no fun.

[Deleted]

I spent some time doing some reading on holy paladins for legion, particualrly the meele version of it and became more and more skeptic.
I have tried multiple meele healers in mmos in the past, warhammer warrior priest, age of conan bear shaman, mistweaving in wow so on and can only come to one conclusion, in this type of games (mmos based around mouse and WASD) you cant have meele healers, either you bufff them to become overpowered or the meeles will spend more time casting rather than hitting..which by then you should just have them stand in the back and cast instead of half assing it in the middle..


The numbers from beta seem really low, which is congruent with my predictions.

I fear holy paladin pve in legion will be shit.

TLDR: Even if the numbers are there, no raiding guild would want their healer always in the thick of it, losing time moving in close and getting hit by fire in the process, always has been like that

[Deleted]

I spent some time doing some reading on holy paladins for legion, particualrly the meele version of it and became more and more skeptic.
I have tried multiple meele healers in mmos in the past, warhammer warrior priest, age of conan bear shaman, mistweaving in wow so on and can only come to one conclusion, in this type of games (mmos based around mouse and WASD) you cant have meele healers, either you bufff them to become overpowered or the meeles will spend more time casting rather than hitting..which by then you should just have them stand in the back and cast instead of half assing it in the middle..


The numbers from beta seem really low, which is congruent with my predictions.

I fear holy paladin pve in legion will be shit.

TLDR: Even if the numbers are there, no raiding guild would want their healer always in the thick of it, losing time moving in close and getting hit by fire in the process, always has been like that

The only baseline healing bits of our kit that could benefit from standing in melee over ranged are our mastery and auras. Mastery is partially fixed by having rule of law as a potent option now, the passive effect of auras isn't huge and the aura mastery effects have a 40yd range. Sure, we lose the option of normally dpsing outside melee range but fishing for Power of the Silver Hand procs and offensively using them after a judgement is a fair amount of damage (power of the silver hand doesn't proc often but a fully powered HS crits in the low millions- this isn't an exaggeration).

The talents that benefit from being in melee are beacon of the savior and crusader's might. Beacon of the savior just isn't viable in situations outside of levelling or horribly outgearing content, and crusader's might isn't a particularly strong talent even if you can stand in melee the whole time- it's basically the mana efficient choice in the row (you replace HL filler casts with 0 mana CS casts), but got nerfed heavily with the removal of daybreak and isn't as strong as the buffed light's hammer.

And holy paladin numbers aren't low in alpha- go back a page and look at Grief/EzG's logs, these line up fairly well with what I've experienced too. i.e. Hpala is strong on longer fights, where other healers run oom, but not terrible on shorter fights. This is a symptom of not having a mana dump, rather than being a melee healer.

On top of this, monks have been a healer with a melee option throughout WoD, and have been fine throughout the expansion- not mandatory like palas have been for mythic progression, but competitive.

[spikeh]

I don't think anyone will play the Atonement-style holy paladin for mythic raids. As actual casting healers we're fine.

New talents are in and I'm interested in trying them out during the next raid test.

I like Bestow Faith much more than the bland passive Holy Bolt it replaced. I think has potential to be useful during progression if an encounter has relevant mechanics and its use is timed well.

Fervent Martyr seems garbage, though.

Dammit please stop nerfing Prism, it hurts so much.

[rubenmsalles]

So they insist in nerfed disci playstyle but they can't fix or improve this "filler" trait http://legion.wowhead.com/spell=2003...he-silver-hand

[EzG]

So they insist in nerfed disci playstyle but they can't fix or improve this "filler" trait http://legion.wowhead.com/spell=2003...he-silver-hand

I mean... yay for another defensive?

[spikeh]

Yeah it could be nice for progression, shame it's on GCD though.

[EzG]

Hi hi. This Monday's test I'm going to try to stream although the quality won't be at its A game. Logs are a for sure. From what I can see, the new talent that replaced holy bolt might, at least just reading it, be a pretty decent heal on people that will be taking damage within the duration. As far as the bosses have gone so far, there has been a constant flow of tank damage and sometimes raid, so I think the tanks are gonna get a decent spike heal every couple seconds. As for the other changes, I have no thoughts on them, mostly I think nothing has changed.

LOGS:
Il'gynoth: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...aling&fight=17
Cenarius: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...aling&fight=35

VIDS:
Il'gynoth: https://www.twitch.tv/grief09/v/64204519
Cenarius: https://www.twitch.tv/grief09/v/64204942

EDIT: Tried bestow faith for a little while, but both fights had loads of aoe damage and LH seemed to pull ahead. BF was ticked for 540k at one point, but ranged to 300-400k, and placed on cd will get that amount of heals every 17 seconds. I didn't try LoTM at all.

EDIT: I'm a shitter when it comes to LoD positioning and did absolutely terrible at using it. I ran faith for about half of the attempts and did decent healing for the most part until the raid damage became real, then it seems the extra oomf to LoD and a single beacon could pull ahead almost all of the time. I tried DP and I can't see it being used, I didn't use holy prism much at all but on the attempts I did it actually did pretty well, and avenger was meh but an ok extra cd.

[Toppy]

So on the subject of melee holy-ing. As someone who hates being at range, is the new melee healing thing viable? I miss my Warhammer Warrior Priest.

[Emojuice]

I'm a shitter when it comes to LoD positioning and did absolutely terrible at using it.

We'll try giving Light of Dawn some hidden added targeting area around you (something like a small circle in addition to the cone), so that it hits everyone if you're in a clump, without worrying about who's precisely in front of you or behind you. Not enough to have to add visuals for it, just enough to feel like it's some overly generous targeting around the origin end of the cone.

We're saved!

[Deleted]

they should never have got rid of the 360 lod from live. a stupid decision

i don't mind lod as a spell falling off with mastery range over the 40y.... but don't penalise us for being 'in the mix' with allies all around us and then give us a shitty cone back. tuning aside, going from a radial radiance and a radial lod to a conal lod feels shit. it would be one thing if you could 'choose' the targets with the cone, but you don't do that in a raid. you fire it on cd and 'aim for the chest'. if you're going to 'shotgun' the raid with a heal, it might as well be able to hit the mage behind you and the tank in front of you.

all the cone does is complicate positioning and devalue the spell. wellspring is fine as a talent because shamans have CH and HR to complement it. LH isn't rotational, and prism has awkward prereqs for ranged cluster healing anyway. wizards will be miles from the boss, so they won't get healed by the healing refraction.

i don't mind having to use spells cleverly, i encourage it. but there's nothing wrong with the live lod, we've already lost radiance (which was stringent but has potential.) in most fights there'll be melee beside us, casters behind us, and a tank in front of us. god forbid our only baseline aoe should be able to hit all of them like almost every other cleaveheal aoe in the game.

it's another change for the sake of it, made by disjointed team of mathematicians who want to be designers and designers who want to time travel back to 2004 when people actually respected their work. instead of building a hpala kit and naming the spells appropriately, they've got a few spells and feel like they have to limit their functionality according to their name.

how are they going to buff bestow? shorter fuse will make it too much like HS.. a bigger heal will increase overhealing in raids, a shorter cd will devalue the 'gameplay'.

as for martyr, PvP will be hell. getting opened on at 70% compared to 100% (because the developers think you're 'safe' to use it at 80%+) could mean the difference between life and death. and no, legion isn't different... at least not now when people get buried in ret, havoc and enhance globals. tuning wont' stop that, it'll just change the class that does it the fastest. :/

[Unir]

The commentary from some of the alpha testers on the class forums occasionally boggles the mind. Pacer, Aladya, Alorp, Clouds, a few other names I recognize, all giving very good feedback, then someone says this:

"Why do we need downsides to our spells? I get paladins are "selfless" but Sacrifice or Light of the Martyr? Still the only class with major "downsides" like dying? And if you try to tweak it so its more "don't worry you shouldn't die if you use it to save someone else" why bother with the downside?"

That is an exceptional comment, and entirely true. It covers several of our spells / auras, which will probably just see very little use as a result of their terrible design. That comment got down-voted, so now I cannot help but wonder what idiot out there has alpha access and is enjoying stupid things like the BoSac transfer headache, or thinks this sacrifice nonsense is actually good gameplay and design.

As a side comment, while I am glad the devs are at least listening (or appear to be), they really need to realize that being so stubbornly focused on "class fantasy" is leading them to force mechanics on players that can result in an unenjoyable experience. Celestalon's asinine comments about BoSac illustrate that problem perfectly. They are obviously so torqued up around this "class fantasy" idea that he cannot even see the problem with the "downside" of the ability in the first place, particularly in comparison to Ironbark, Pain Sup, and other tank CD's.

It really does not matter if BoSac / any-other-"sacrifice"-ability is tweaked to reduce damage, make me coffee in the morning, and fill up my car with gas - after it gets me killed a few times in raid progression it will come off my bars and people will wonder what the fuck Blizzard was thinking. Simple as that.

... but more than that, how the hell is that fun for a healer?

[Deleted]

Pacer, Aladya, Alorp, Clouds, and a few others have been here before and know what's likely to change and what isn't. i share your frustration with the sac mechanics and the stupid, dated class fantasy that has NEVER been a thing in WoW (apart from BoSac). aladya has been brutally honest with some feedback (which is great) but make no mistake: blizzard have made up their minds for the most part, so the feedback you're reading from the aforementioned is what it is BECAUSE there's a chance that some of the stuff they're talking about will change.

if aladya/pacer campaign for a complete rework, they're not going to get it. they know that, you know that, even i know that. but by pressing the sac-vs-ironbark issue, and the jol issue, and the melee issue, and so on, they might just get a result. maybe BoSac will drop down to 30-sec CD with staggered damage, and become part of the mid-CD rotation? maybe bestow will heal over time? maybe movement will get bumped up in the light of havoc mobility, maybe AuraSac will not be shit passively, etc. who knows.

class fantasy (especially for paladins) is dogshit, and, in concert with the 'i saw the movie and bought the game' newcomer changes, will most likely fuck things up for the rest of us. but the feedback from our guys is damage control. it's a fight that, with sigma's co-operation and understanding, we might be able to lose a little bit less.

are the legion changes to ANY paladin spec better so far? fuck no. prot is boring; ret is sluggish and off-tempo; and holy is pigeon-holed into a battle-healer-but-not role that NOBODY asked for and that has very little foundation in WoW (if not the warcraft universe). but we are where we are, which is clawing for minor changes that might just make the difference.

[Sungamnori]

and holy is pigeon-holed into a battle-healer-but-not role that NOBODY asked for and that has very little foundation in WoW (if not the warcraft universe).

It's true I didn't ask for a melee battle healer role, but ever since I saw the possibility, I've been absolutely infatuated with it. I raided as holy back in Vanilla. I enjoyed filling that role, but got so incredibly bored with casting spells that I've been ret and prot ever since.

I sincerely hope that they tweak and tune it so that melee-heals are effective, at least in 5mans. I don't care if my attacks do 1 damage, there is just something about that change in game play approach that is very appealing to me. I get the melee experience while filling the healing role.

I also think its easy to look at each ability individually and say that it is useless for melee-healing... but when you combine passive Beacon of the Savior heals on the beacon target with group heals in the form of Judgement of Light, Light of Dawn, Holy Prism, and Light's hammer, and self-casting FoL/HL to transfer to the Beacon target as needed - NONE of which require you to untarget the MOB - well as I said, I just hope they're able to tune it all so it works out.

Edit: And honestly, you aren't FORCED to be a melee healer.. if you don't want to be, don't take Beacon of the Savior. Take Beacon of the Lightbringer and Rule of law. The proximity based mastery will be very flexible, and you can stand wherever you want, casting heals left and right.