The return of Kel'thuzad !

[Tyrannica]

He's dead. His soul ended up in "hell" according to Sylvanas' short story. He, however, is stuck there. Sylvanas has only been rescued by the Val'kyr taking her place in hell for her. It's possible that this "hell" is Helheim, since the Valkyr do have a connection there, though what they stand to gain from the arrangement puzzles me. Perhaps they're going there anyway if they're ever killed, and they think Sylvanas is the best bet for preventing them from dying? She's not got a great track record for keeping them out, after getting killed by Godfrey.



Who says being dead prevents you from dying again? The forsaken die. If they didn't, they'd likely have taken over the world by now. Sylvanas complained to Garrosh that were they not permitted to raise more Forsaken, her people would die out.
You're not wrong about his redemption, but not every villain needs redemption. Especially if it's going to be as unconvincing as Illidan's.
As for containing his soul, why should we? Ressurection is not as common or easy as gameplay would have us believe. Not to mention that Frostmourne is shattered and the Helm of Damnation lies on the head of Bolvar Fordragon. Both key components of the power Arthas showed he would lack. Remember in this universe gear=skill. Innate power has very little sway, it's powerful artifacts which enable their users to do great things. Arthas was powerful because he had Frostmourne.



I think you give Kel'Thuzad more credit than he deserves with the phrase "Immortal Archlich". He's not an Archlich, he's a lich. He's not particularly noteworthy other than keeping powerful company, serving the Lich King. As for immortal, he'll reform slowly over time, sure, but that's just how Liches work. Plus we smash his phylactery and he's very super dead.
According to the novelisation, Arthas should never have beaten Illidan. He was saved by Frostmourne moving of its own accord and striking Illidan. His gear won the fight for him completely, he purest example of gear=skill.
During the events of Wrath, Arthas always had his reasoning. You say his plan was foolish and risky. It wasn't. He came the closest of any villain we've ever fought to victory. Only the light saved us through Fordring at the last moment. He should never have been able to do that, not on the unholy soil of Icecrown. Arthas had no reason to suspect that he could do what he did. A lot of lore guys still hold that he shouldn't have been able to.
When was Arthas so cunning as a Death Knight? He served the Lich King absolutely, and simply destroyed everything in his path. He couldn't get through Quel'Thalas, Dar'Khan came to him and offered him a way in. He was ambushed successfully by Sylvanas, and saved only by the convenient arrival of his allies.


I see where you're coming from here. He's iconic, no doubt about that, but honestly I'd rather let his legacy live on. His story is over. Coming back over and over would cheapen it. Arthas is no master of undeath. He's a whiny kid who got a magic stick that let him control an army of skeletons.
I don't think there's any record of Death Knights coming back that I know of. They lead armies of dead, and are really hard to kill, but when they die, they die. That's why we saw Arthas' soul in Hell.
New, interesting villains please, don't throw the same ones at us until we don't care and they become a joke. There's a reason "merely a setback" is a joke in the community.

first, thanks for the lengthy reply.

I thought hell is the twisting nether in wow? If there is a classical hell or nordic mythology hell like hellheim, we should certainly explore it. If its normal in greek classical tales and diablo, i bet its possible in a fantasy setting like wow, too.

However i think there is just the twisting nether and something else, looking further for answers i only found this speculative information: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Hell

I think you mistake a bit what Arthas really is, he is not a spoiled kid, he was when we first meet him in wc3, but that quickly changed in the events of Stratholme. He did become someone with a very strong willpower and pretty cruel how to achieve his goals. that was before frostmourne was touched and stole his soul.

Also he did defeated the former lich king and former warchief Ner'zhul in a mind battle. Only happens with extraordinary willpower - don't think this old shaman had a weak spirit to begin with.

He is too iconic to waste and i would not compare him with Kael'thas, they both work differently, coming back from the dead is like walk in the park for a dk. he does not need a demon soulstone or anything attached to his chest to return in a comedy style cartoonish manner.

I simply thing, wow is missing a villain who is showing his face in all or most of the expansions in a continuing story. Maybe i played FF6 too much in the 90ies and need a dynamic villain as Kefka was, though. :-)

[Sartorius 01]

first, thanks for the lengthy reply.

I thought hell is the twisting nether in wow? If there is a classical hell or nordic mythology hell like hellheim, we should certainly explore it. If its normal in greek classical tales and diablo, i bet its possible in a fantasy setting like wow, too.

However i think there is just the twisting nether and something else, looking further for answers i only found this speculative information: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Hell

I think you mistake a bit what Arthas really is, he is not a spoiled kid, he was when we first meet him in wc3, but that quickly changed in the events of Stratholme. He did become someone with a very strong willpower and pretty cruel how to achieve his goals. that was before frostmourne was touched and stole his soul.

Also he did defeated the former lich king and former warchief Ner'zhul in a mind battle. Only happens with extraordinary willpower - don't think this old shaman had a weak spirit to begin with.

He is too iconic to waste and i would not compare him with Kael'thas, they both work differently, coming back from the dead is like walk in the park for a dk. he does not need a demon soulstone or anything attached to his chest to return in a comedy style cartoonish manner.

I simply thing, wow is missing a villain who is showing his face in all or most of the expansions in a continuing story. Maybe i played FF6 too much in the 90ies and need a dynamic villain as Kefka was, though. :-)

the scourge will be the best candidate as a returning threat.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

first, thanks for the lengthy reply.

I thought hell is the twisting nether in wow? If there is a classical hell or nordic mythology hell like hellheim, we should certainly explore it. If its normal in greek classical tales and diablo, i bet its possible in a fantasy setting like wow, too.

However i think there is just the twisting nether and something else, looking further for answers i only found this speculative information: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Hell

I think you mistake a bit what Arthas really is, he is not a spoiled kid, he was when we first meet him in wc3, but that quickly changed in the events of Stratholme. He did become someone with a very strong willpower and pretty cruel how to achieve his goals. that was before frostmourne was touched and stole his soul.

Also he did defeated the former lich king and former warchief Ner'zhul in a mind battle. Only happens with extraordinary willpower - don't think this old shaman had a weak spirit to begin with.

He is too iconic to waste and i would not compare him with Kael'thas, they both work differently, coming back from the dead is like walk in the park for a dk. he does not need a demon soulstone or anything attached to his chest to return in a comedy style cartoonish manner.

I simply thing, wow is missing a villain who is showing his face in all or most of the expansions in a continuing story. Maybe i played FF6 too much in the 90ies and need a dynamic villain as Kefka was, though. :-)

The hell thing is really ambiguous. It's mentioned in passing in a few places, but that short story is the best description we have, and it makes no reference to demons. It's a place of torment for your crimes, Sylvanas sees Arthas there. As I said, Helheim could possibly fit it with Icecrown having Vrykul links, but I've not seen enough Legion stuff to know. Helheim's a Legion dungeon, Chronicle gave us a bit of background to it which I can't remember offhand, but it's linked with the Titan keepers, especially Odyn

Arthas was willful, sure, but only because he was consumed by a need for revenge, and Ner'zhul exploited that for his own ends. The mind battle thing is interesting, but Ner'zhul isn't just noted for power, but cunning. He's successfully outplayed Kil'Jaeden the Deceiver, Arthas would be child's play for him, and perhaps it suited his ends to have Arthas think he was in control? People think that the growling we heard in Bolvar's voice when he put on the Helm was evidence of Ner'zhul still being in there somewhere. That's all speculation of course.

Again, DKs aren't noted for returning again and again. They come back once and are super hard to kill. He's different to Kael for sure, but Kael's return wasn't because he was so interesting, he was just a logical route to take us to the Sunwell and give us a Kil'Jaeden fight. I still think an Arthas return would cheapen him, not to mention being a total waste of Bolvar as a character. If they ever bring the Lich King back in a big way it'll be through Bolvar, not Arthas.

I think they're working towards an overarching villain with the Void stuff. That's the big fight we're working towards. Interesting you mention FF, because that's a good example of a series that keeps introducing new villains. Individual chapters will have the overarching villains, but they're eventually defeated to make room for new ones.
I'd argue Arthas wasn't wasted at all. Wrath was the first time we saw decent storytelling in the game, and they did a great job of making Arthas a good villain who we wanted to kill, but that's where his story should end.
I wouldn't be opposed to a more interesting villain in WoW though. Gul'dan's impressive, but we've not seen a whole lot of personality from this incarnation other than being basically a cult recruiter for the Legion.

[Sartorius 01]

The hell thing is really ambiguous. It's mentioned in passing in a few places, but that short story is the best description we have, and it makes no reference to demons. It's a place of torment for your crimes, Sylvanas sees Arthas there. As I said, Helheim could possibly fit it with Icecrown having Vrykul links, but I've not seen enough Legion stuff to know. Helheim's a Legion dungeon, Chronicle gave us a bit of background to it which I can't remember offhand, but it's linked with the Titan keepers, especially Odyn

Arthas was willful, sure, but only because he was consumed by a need for revenge, and Ner'zhul exploited that for his own ends. The mind battle thing is interesting, but Ner'zhul isn't just noted for power, but cunning. He's successfully outplayed Kil'Jaeden the Deceiver, Arthas would be child's play for him, and perhaps it suited his ends to have Arthas think he was in control? People think that the growling we heard in Bolvar's voice when he put on the Helm was evidence of Ner'zhul still being in there somewhere. That's all speculation of course.

Again, DKs aren't noted for returning again and again. They come back once and are super hard to kill. He's different to Kael for sure, but Kael's return wasn't because he was so interesting, he was just a logical route to take us to the Sunwell and give us a Kil'Jaeden fight. I still think an Arthas return would cheapen him, not to mention being a total waste of Bolvar as a character. If they ever bring the Lich King back in a big way it'll be through Bolvar, not Arthas.

I think they're working towards an overarching villain with the Void stuff. That's the big fight we're working towards. Interesting you mention FF, because that's a good example of a series that keeps introducing new villains. Individual chapters will have the overarching villains, but they're eventually defeated to make room for new ones.
I'd argue Arthas wasn't wasted at all. Wrath was the first time we saw decent storytelling in the game, and they did a great job of making Arthas a good villain who we wanted to kill, but that's where his story should end.
I wouldn't be opposed to a more interesting villain in WoW though. Gul'dan's impressive, but we've not seen a whole lot of personality from this incarnation other than being basically a cult recruiter for the Legion.

Your speculation is very good. However , i would like to see the scourge coming back with an unexpected villain leading them.

[Tyrannica]

The hell thing is really ambiguous. It's mentioned in passing in a few places, but that short story is the best description we have, and it makes no reference to demons. It's a place of torment for your crimes, Sylvanas sees Arthas there. As I said, Helheim could possibly fit it with Icecrown having Vrykul links, but I've not seen enough Legion stuff to know. Helheim's a Legion dungeon, Chronicle gave us a bit of background to it which I can't remember offhand, but it's linked with the Titan keepers, especially Odyn

Arthas was willful, sure, but only because he was consumed by a need for revenge, and Ner'zhul exploited that for his own ends. The mind battle thing is interesting, but Ner'zhul isn't just noted for power, but cunning. He's successfully outplayed Kil'Jaeden the Deceiver, Arthas would be child's play for him, and perhaps it suited his ends to have Arthas think he was in control? People think that the growling we heard in Bolvar's voice when he put on the Helm was evidence of Ner'zhul still being in there somewhere. That's all speculation of course.

Again, DKs aren't noted for returning again and again. They come back once and are super hard to kill. He's different to Kael for sure, but Kael's return wasn't because he was so interesting, he was just a logical route to take us to the Sunwell and give us a Kil'Jaeden fight. I still think an Arthas return would cheapen him, not to mention being a total waste of Bolvar as a character. If they ever bring the Lich King back in a big way it'll be through Bolvar, not Arthas.

I think they're working towards an overarching villain with the Void stuff. That's the big fight we're working towards. Interesting you mention FF, because that's a good example of a series that keeps introducing new villains. Individual chapters will have the overarching villains, but they're eventually defeated to make room for new ones.
I'd argue Arthas wasn't wasted at all. Wrath was the first time we saw decent storytelling in the game, and they did a great job of making Arthas a good villain who we wanted to kill, but that's where his story should end.
I wouldn't be opposed to a more interesting villain in WoW though. Gul'dan's impressive, but we've not seen a whole lot of personality from this incarnation other than being basically a cult recruiter for the Legion.

I too believe Ner'zhul is still in this helmet, on the other side, blizzard simply wasted him in a 5man in WoD and that was pretty underwhelming.

Not sure about that Bolvar LK, his personality might be simply consumed by the voices in his helm and he is just another body to carry the will of a more furied LK.

I think, what happened with Arthas is just that he got free of the LK duty and could roam the realms again as DK, if he escapes Helllheim or whatever place he is in. Of course people would rather like to see more iconic villains developed. But i want to be honest here, that is not likely to happen since Reign Of Chaos/Frotzen Throne i did not see a single one that could be compared other than perhaps Illidan who appeared in the same RTS.

Maybe devs can develop wrathion proberly, other thant that the void thing is not so interesting, if you played SC2 previously. Don't think all blizz games should end in with the void. There was void in the never ending story, too, what worked, but not in these games so much.

Just another humble humanoid with some unique powers and cunning would be interesting to see. I only mentioned FF6, btw. You meet the endboss who destroys a whole world halfway in the game, pretty early and he turned out to be extremely pathetic and weak in the first encounter and acted like a boot lickering clown who delved swiftly into madness. I think this was great story telling. I am not so much into marvel super heroes and stuff big and mighty all the time it bores me.

And mind you the LK Arthas in wotlk was totally different from the DK Arthas in frozen throne, he looked silly with that armor and helmet, very cartoonish and he acted like he looked like. Well that kind of arthas is really not wasted, because even Bolvar could do the job much better, actually at least he got some funny flames around him for the big show.

Now this is slightly offtopic and simply about wow villains:
Gul'dan is a well constructed villain, unfortunately a dev said in blue, he will not survive(or at least be cornered, no where to flee) the early suramar raid action, so afther this we will probably just confront some higher powers. Whatever it is KJ, Sargeras or gods, corrupted faction leader - i don't know, but if its just a presentation and raid fight like Archimonde its nothing special and pretty boring allready. Always thought Sargeras could posses a woman/girl maybe even Jaina and do his sinister work from there, coming from an unexpected angle for the big surprise, when the time is coming. I mean, he possessed a powerful mage, before - not totally big news, but possessed Medivh was never shown in any of the games doing a single fight or plotting much and since he could simply incinerate big dragons like the one coming to Kara, he would possibly pose a big villain to overcome. On the other side, there is always room for a crazied Khadgar, storyline.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

I too believe Ner'zhul is still in this helmet, on the other side, blizzard simply wasted him in a 5man in WoD and that was pretty underwhelming.

Not sure about that Bolvar LK, his personality might be simply consumed by the voices in his helm and he is just another body to carry the will of a more furied LK.

I think, what happened with Arthas is just that he got free of the LK duty and could roam the realms again as DK, if he escapes Helllheim or whatever place he is in. Of course people would rather like to see more iconic villains developed. But i want to be honest here, that is not likely to happen since Reign Of Chaos/Frotzen Throne i did not see a single one that could be compared other than perhaps Illidan who appeared in the same RTS.

Maybe devs can develop wrathion proberly, other thant that the void thing is not so interesting, if you played SC2 previously. Don't think all blizz games should end in with the void. There was void in the never ending story, too, what worked, but not in these games so much.

Just another humble humanoid with some unique powers and cunning would be interesting to see. I only mentioned FF6, btw. You meet the endboss who destroys a whole world halfway in the game, pretty early and he turned out to be extremely pathetic and weak in the first encounter and acted like a boot lickering clown who delved swiftly into madness. I think this was great story telling. I am not so much into marvel super heroes and stuff big and mighty all the time it bores me.

And mind you the LK Arthas in wotlk was totally different from the DK Arthas in frozen throne, he looked silly with that armor and helmet, very cartoonish and he acted like he looked like. Well that kind of arthas is really not wasted, because even Bolvar could do the job much better, actually at least he got some funny flames around him for the big show.

Now this is slightly offtopic and simply about wow villains:
Gul'dan is a well constructed villain, unfortunately a dev said in blue, he will not survive(or at least be cornered, no where to flee) the early suramar raid action, so afther this we will probably just confront some higher powers. Whatever it is KJ, Sargeras or gods, corrupted faction leader - i don't know, but if its just a presentation and raid fight like Archimonde its nothing special and pretty boring allready. Always thought Sargeras could posses a woman/girl maybe even Jaina and do his sinister work from there, coming from an unexpected angle for the big surprise, when the time is coming. I mean, he possessed a powerful mage, before - not totally big news, but possessed Medivh was never shown in any of the games doing a single fight or plotting much and since he could simply incinerate big dragons like the one coming to Kara, he would possibly pose a big villain to overcome. On the other side, there is always room for a crazied Khadgar, storyline.

Personally I'm maintaining that we'll see something of the Void by the end of Legion. They've hinted at the threat so hard in game. I think Ner'zhul will be the leader, corrupted by the Void. I don't believe for a second that he's dead for good. That's why we were in the weird voidy realm.
Arthas acted differently in Wrath because he had become arrogant, and with good reason. His forces were powerful enough to have taken over the world-when he died, Terenas warned that the Scourge unchecked would have destroyed the whole of Azeroth, that's why there must always be a Lich King. He had the forces to do it if he wanted, he just wanted more.
Escaping Hell isn't something I've considered, but if for some reason they wanted to bring him back, that'd be the way. Who knows how much damage we're going to end up doing down there. A new army of escaped damned souls. That's an expansion in the works.
The issue with introducing a new humanoid is power creep. We can't just go from taking down whatever the endboss of Legion is to just some magic dude. It would be ridiculous that it seemed like a challenge. Same problem happened to an extent in MoP when we went from literally stopping the end of the world to cleaning a brewery out and killing rabbit men.

[Yattz]

Not even Kel'thuzad can't save the vomit that warcraft lore has become. All praise the holy archangel Illidan!

Aww, When u make fun of it, its real and its too soon to make AngIllidan real

[Tyrannica]

Aww, When u make fun of it, its real and its too soon to make AngIllidan real

Wait till Kel'thuzad and Arthas get their pair of archangel wings too!

I mean, every villain should get a shot to archangelhood as we must unite against the Void.

I rather would have loved to see how Illidan fight his own brother, because there is still a heavy storyline about them. And Malfurion did actually threaten Illidan and promised him to kill him if they ever met again, while keeping Tyrannde, the night elf woman illidan obviously loved for about 10k years.

Wonder if that got simply retconned for archangelwings?

[Friendlyimmolation]

Hopefully it's an azhor azshi thing and he has to kill tyrande for his light powers or some shit

[Deleted]

Hopefully it's an azhor azshi thing and he has to kill tyrande for his light powers or some shit

Tyrande should get her Heroes of the Storm Model für WoW.