Arms Legion Discussion

[cFortyfive]

The reddit circlejerk

Reddit as a whole is just a bigger but equally retarded brother of the official wow forums.

[Archimtiros]

It's fine if designers don't ask what customers (players) want or prefer. However, designers absolutely have to ask if customers enjoy the product, and keep adjusting until a reasonable number of their focus groups (beta testers) agree. The breakdown began when those conversations didn't happen, and in the vacuum, players have shifted from talking about the actual product and on to what they want or prefer.

If they want to deliver the best product, class devs need to lay their cards on the table. Yes, they risk what happened with Brewmaster, and their assumptions of fun are misaligned with most players. But while game designers may enjoy more creative license than other designers, there's a beta with all efforts made to collect feedback, so they're still designers creating a product for customers. They're not performance artists.

That's my take on the subject. If you're going to ask people for feedback, especially in a large in public setting, you have to be prepared to make adjustments based on that feedback. If you're going to hold your fingers in your ears and say everything is perfect, it's no longer feedback - it's previewing.

Some test phases have been better than others, and of course you have to stop making changes at some point, or else you'd design forever and never release, but it is really disappointing to see entire large portions of the testing phase go by and your feedback almost entirely disregarded, or worse, have the exact opposite of what you asked done (CS extension removal, Warbreaker put on the GCD).

[Celarent]

That's my take on the subject. If you're going to ask people for feedback, especially in a large in public setting, you have to be prepared to make adjustments based on that feedback. If you're going to hold your fingers in your ears and say everything is perfect, it's no longer feedback - it's previewing.

Exactly.

"Is this fun?" Nine out of ten say no. Verdict: REDESIGN

"Is this fun?" Five out of ten say no. Verdict: ITERATE

"Is this fun?" Eight out of ten say yeah, pretty much. Verdict: FREEZE AND TUNE FOR NOW.

Some test phases have been better than others, and of course you have to stop making changes at some point, or else you'd design forever and never release, but it is really disappointing to see entire large portions of the testing phase go by and your feedback almost entirely disregarded, or worse, have the exact opposite of what you asked done (CS extension removal, Warbreaker put on the GCD).

Facing the possibility that your idea or vision will be rejected isn't easy to do. When your work is for someone else, though, you do it.

It's like, how many times do I have to quote GC, hardly perfect but fast becoming a saint with the way systems/class has been behaving: "[I] didn't want to risk making changes that entertained me but weren't right for players."

[Archimtiros]

Exactly.

"Is this fun?" Nine out of ten say no. Verdict: REDESIGN

"Is this fun?" Five out of ten say no. Verdict: ITERATE

"Is this fun?" Eight out of ten say yeah, pretty much. Verdict: FREEZE AND TUNE FOR NOW.



Facing the possibility that your idea or vision will be rejected isn't easy to do. When your work is for someone else, though, you do it.

It's like, how many times do I have to quote GC, hardly perfect but fast becoming a saint with the way systems/class has been behaving: "[I] didn't want to risk making changes that entertained me but weren't right for players."

Comes down to a question of whether you're designing for yourself or designing for your audience. An unfortunate majority holds the former in higher regard.

[Bigbazz]

I'm guessing with the extension design they were either scared of tuning headaches or the skill cap separating top players from average players by too large a margin kind of headaches. Either way what we have now is so one dimensional that all of your attention is focussed on the CS reset, making it all the more frustrating when RNG doesn't favour you because it's the only thing you have to focus on.

That's made worse by the 45 second cooldown that really doesn't need to be any longer than 24 seconds (Titanic Might duration), the spec is really not enjoyable to play. I have people commenting on my youtube videos of the first iteration of Arms saying how it looks real fun and that they may play Arms in Legion, and then I have to tell them "sorry but Blizzard removed it".

I'm most likely playing for progression raiding in Legion, I want to pick Fury because I prefer it but the Arms Legendaries look more useful for progression, 30% damage taken increased (20% talented) is also a real negative for Fury, I mean how do you justify that on progression when you're trying to kill bosses with low healing. Meh, I just wish Arms was engaging to play.

[Toppy]

Between most of the class threads and ESPECIALLY the PvP feedback it feels like the class team is being purposely ignorant. When multiple classes are going the path of WoD arms, I don't see Legion being a success. Players of all skill levels hated WoD arms, it's not just us elitist mythic folk.

Players of all skill levels are in the Alpha now and complaining about boring class design.

Maybe before it's too late they'll realize that your class rotation/design is pretty much everything you do in this game, and fix that shit. I'm not holding my breath, however.

Yeah. It seems Legion is doing well in many many areas. But utterlly failing in the one that matters most: gameplay.

Unless they really get their shit together soon, its going to flop since most of the playerbase are going to be stuck with unfun classes that were redesigned for no reason.

[Artunias]

Yeah, all the content in the world doesn't mean anything to me if my class isn't fun. Could just be me, I suppose. But I really think Blizzard is making a huge error when it comes to class gameplay in Legion for a lot of specs.

Watching the GCD PvP tournament and also watching streams occasionally ALL of those players are very unexcited. The guy who runs GCD even flat out said during the tournament yesterday that they'll run GCD as long as they can but he's quite concerned and questionable about it from what Legion has offered so far.

That should be a gigantic warning sign IMO, when someone who has done more for the PvP community than anyone else ever is thinking he might have to hang up shop and do something else. I don't understand how that can't be seen as a huge problem.

[Deleted]

It's baffling that after this much constructive feedback Blizzard just goes "Ah well, we're fine with how the specs are playing" and disregards all glaring issues. That's bizarre.

I can't weigh in on Fury issues, as I've been barely testing the spec since I've been playing Arms ever since I was invited a month ago, but when it comes to Arms, I can't believe how anyone could think that a spec that's THIS barebones is "fine". It's not fine.

[Breccia]

That's my take on the subject. If you're going to ask people for feedback, especially in a large in public setting, you have to be prepared to make adjustments based on that feedback. If you're going to hold your fingers in your ears and say everything is perfect, it's no longer feedback - it's previewing.

Well said. Don't ask for something you have no intention of using.

[Toppy]

It's baffling that after this much constructive feedback Blizzard just goes "Ah well, we're fine with how the specs are playing" and disregards all glaring issues. That's bizarre.

I can't weigh in on Fury issues, as I've been barely testing the spec since I've been playing Arms ever since I was invited a month ago, but when it comes to Arms, I can't believe how anyone could think that a spec that's THIS barebones is "fine". It's not fine.

Its not that bizarre. Blizz is very, very, bad when it comes to listening to its playerbase. They dont tend to until the shit really hits the fan (like in D3) or not at all (SC2).

[satimy]

It's baffling that after this much constructive feedback Blizzard just goes "Ah well, we're fine with how the specs are playing" and disregards all glaring issues. That's bizarre.

I can't weigh in on Fury issues, as I've been barely testing the spec since I've been playing Arms ever since I was invited a month ago, but when it comes to Arms, I can't believe how anyone could think that a spec that's THIS barebones is "fine". It's not fine.

I think a lot of the current issues is because of the heavy d3 dev influence in WoW. Just half ass the vanilla version of the spec and then make the spec playable with tier bonuses and in legions case legendaries.

[Toppy]

I think a lot of the current issues is because of the heavy d3 dev influence in WoW. Just half ass the vanilla version of the spec and then make the spec playable with tier bonuses and in legions case legendaries.

I know its not what you meant, but I'd kill for a warrior that played more like barbarian, or had some barbarian skills that werent half assed.

[satimy]

I know its not what you meant, but I'd kill for a warrior that played more like barbarian, or had some barbarian skills that werent half assed.

Fine, but the issue is that the core character is designed poorly and unplayable without set bonuses aka WOD arms.

[Toppy]

Fine, but the issue is that the core character is designed poorly and unplayable without set bonuses aka WOD arms.

Oh for sure, and this problem is only worse in PvP too. I dont think warrior will have any functional specs for PvP.

PvP being a whole different can of worms with blizzard ignoring any and all feedback there too.

[Artunias]

At various points over the weekend I read through most of the other class feedback threads. A lot of specs are in the same boat. Straight up, they are killing the game.

[nativity]

That's my take on the subject. If you're going to ask people for feedback, especially in a large in public setting, you have to be prepared to make adjustments based on that feedback. If you're going to hold your fingers in your ears and say everything is perfect, it's no longer feedback - it's previewing.

Some test phases have been better than others, and of course you have to stop making changes at some point, or else you'd design forever and never release, but it is really disappointing to see entire large portions of the testing phase go by and your feedback almost entirely disregarded, or worse, have the exact opposite of what you asked done (CS extension removal, Warbreaker put on the GCD).

Somehow they did not learnt (or simply refused to learn) from the failure of WOD whereby alpha/beta testers feedback are very important to the final product. Safely to say the feedbacks given are more than sufficient enough to cover the entire player base be it new players or veteran players.. Communication to the class (Wariors) so far has been very very disappointing as I felt that the devs did not put in some effort to reach out to the testers and have some communication and share direction/design philosophies . If they have done that, at least we can have an active discussions on improving the specs. I wouldn't have give such a harsh outburst in the class feedback as well. .. We did not ask to be the top of the world.. All we ask is for the class to be fun and engaging, that is all

[Toppy]

Somehow they did not learnt (or simply refused to learn) from the failure of WOD whereby alpha/beta testers feedback are very important to the final product. Safely to say the feedbacks given are more than sufficient enough to cover the entire player base be it new players or veteran players.. Communication to the class (Wariors) so far has been very very disappointing as I felt that the devs did not put in some effort to reach out to the testers and have some communication and share direction/design philosophies . If they have done that, at least we can have an active discussions on improving the specs. I wouldn't have give such a harsh outburst in the class feedback as well. .. We did not ask to be the top of the world.. All we ask is for the class to be fun and engaging, that is all

Judging from our class hall as well, blizz is putting as little effort into Warriors as possible.

So far, our class hall is just reused assets from a dungeon. Other class halls so far are showing quiet a bit of unique bits and pieces here and there. Our storyline doesnt relate to warriors and was just shoved in to match the dungeon. The entirety of our lore in legion is based around blizz putting in as little work as possible.

Look at warrior as a whole for legion and it fast becomes clear that blizzard does not care about the class for some reason. Everything about it is just lazy and uncaring.

[nativity]

Judging from our class hall as well, blizz is putting as little effort into Warriors as possible.

So far, our class hall is just reused assets from a dungeon. Other class halls so far are showing quiet a bit of unique bits and pieces here and there. Our storyline doesnt relate to warriors and was just shoved in to match the dungeon. The entirety of our lore in legion is based around blizz putting in as little work as possible.

Look at warrior as a whole for legion and it fast becomes clear that blizzard does not care about the class for some reason. Everything about it is just lazy and uncaring.

I always thought the warrior class hall should be right in the middle of the battlefield.. well, warriors always love to fight and enjoy the heat of the battle right ?

[Toppy]

I always thought the warrior class hall should be right in the middle of the battlefield.. well, warriors always love to fight and enjoy the heat of the battle right ?

This is true.

Instead we're now magical sci-fi vikings who dislike being around our own people and our favorite color is gold. But only if its glowing.

[shyguybman]

Saw this on the bnet forums, I'm sure it will have no effect LOL but
http://www.strawpoll.me/10105720