[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Deleted]

There were some questions and answers in the Theorycrafting Thread again. Here we go:

Q: Can you rebuff a Greater Blessing, it the Ally with one of them died (infight)?
A: Greater Blessings are indeed now uncastable while in combat, and persist through death.

Q: Back to the Vengeance Aura: If a group gets hit by a AoE-Stun (or other CC) and let's say 4 ppl are CC't, do i get 4 stacks? Just to be clear that, so i can check the CC's and report Bugs.
A: An AoE Stun on 4 nearby allies would give 4 stacks of Vengeance Aura.

Q: Will Pure Heart proc on every heal, included HoTs? In the Past that caused many trouble due to the animation that comes every seconds and had a huge impact of the FPS. Also it was very annoying because of the sound of cleanse.
A: Pure of Heart triggers off of any non-proc’d healing. Yes, the visual is rather noisy, we’ll probably only show it if the target is actually diseased/poisoned.

Q: Does Holy Ritual works with Greater Blessings as well?
A: Holy Ritual does not currently trigger from Greater Blessings (likely not as relevant anymore, now that they’re not castable while in combat).

Q: How will Divine Hammer and Law and Order work? Does Divine Hammer applies the slow on every target in it's area, or just on your current Meleetarget?
A: Law and Order currently does not interact with Divine Hammer. (Watch Spell # 204934)

Q: Does The Fires of Justice and Divine Purpose interact with all HP Spenders? Actually they doesn't.
A: Fires of Justice and Divine Purpose should work with all Holy Power consumers. There are likely some bugs there, we’ll get those fixed.

Q: Will the Judgment-Debuff from Retribution Paladins also counts for other Retribution Paladins, or just for me?
A: The Judgment debuff only affects the casting Paladin, not other Paladins.

Q: Regarding Greater Blessing of Might:
We already know, we can't buff Gr. Blessings infight, one Blessing of Might should be around 3% of our damage and we can use Might up to three times.
How will we be balanced around it?
1x Gr. BoM = 100% of our DPS and the other two Mights are a bonus like the Retribution passive? Or will it be 3x Gr. BoM = 100% of our DPS without the Blessing being "bonus damage"?
A: Retribution Paladins will be balanced with the expectation that they’re using 3 total Greater Blessings (not necessarily just Might).

Q: Is Divine Steed boosted by Heart of the Crusader (which would seem logical given that it's a mount)?
A: Yes.

Q: 1)What is the damage % that Ashbringer mimics Templars verdict and divine storm at?
A: 15%.

Q: 2)Also does Healing storm artifact passive scale with AP/ affected by crit/versatility?
A: Yes, it scales with AP (watch Spell # 215257), and can crit and benefit from versatility.

These were all Ret-questions that were answered.

I think the Gr. Blessing one should mean, that more than one Might is "bonus"? And good to see they know about some buggy interactions between DP and other Talents.

[Teleros]

There's a small issue with mastery though. It's usefulness is actually self limiting based on the cooldown of Judgment because at times Holy Power generation exceeds the cooldown regeneration of Judgment. This may mean that you'll need to adjust talent selection based on Haste (Blade of Wrath vs. Blade of Justice, Fires of Justice vs. Greater Judgment, etc).

Very possibly (for the record, I was picking the order of the 3 stats at random for my example). Haste breakpoints and such wouldn't be surprising, and may get quite complex with talents like Greater Judgement as well.

Btw, I don't know if anyone's really noticed, but a Zeal/Divine Hammer build focuses a lot of damage on non-Holy Power skills. Divine Hammer does 250% holy weapon damage over 8 seconds (5 ticks of 50%), whereas Zeal does 280~% weapon damage compared to 140% Crusader Strike.

More choice is always good IMHO.

= + =

Will artifact traits make final verdict more appealing than consecration or execution sentence? or has the buffs to the latter made it too good to ignore.

I think that ES will perform best at single target damage (and Blizz will tweak things to ensure that happens), but you have to use it well to get the benefit. Consecration I don't think will do very well, because to do 405% AP damage you need a whole 9secs (modified by haste), and in most AE or cleave situations the objective is to blow the adds up ASAP rather than apply DoTs to them and AFK.

FV should be best when you (a) need a simpler rotation (eg new to Ret, or progression when boss mechanics > your DPS), or (b) when there's a mix of ST and AE - and when you need bursty AE or cleave damage.

is getting some stacks of sanctified wrath with justicar's vengeance benefit you more dps wise than sticking with templars verdict?

Not sure yet. I suspect using JV for fast stacking will be best, but that's my gut talking, not SimCraft.

if you get the legendary cloak, would that also make final verdict the talent to choose?

Probably, yes. Though it does require a somewhat different gameplay, because the +25% window only lasts 4secs. You need to do something like Judge (5HP) > TV > generator > TV to get the most out of it (can judge with 4 HP if you have BoW or BoJ to use as the filler), otherwise the buff will fade before the second TV is used.

It will be pretty awesome if you pick Sanctified Wrath though.

= + =

If anyone else has specific questions about Alpha that haven't been answered, I can try to find out. I consider myself pretty generous for testing, but my time to play is slightly limited (4-5 exams this week, sorry).

Numbers are always good, especially from the PvP server - people on the PvE one will tend to have different levels of gear etc. Eg...

• Armour % damage reduction for the different armour types (I've not seen this anywhere online :O ).
• Secondary stat rating conversions.
• Health pools & ability damage.

The last two were given a while back, but it's good to know if Blizzard is changing them or adjusting the PvP templates.

If you want to ask the devs a theorycrafting question, "what's the formula for JV damage?" would be a good place to start. Is it an AP coefficient, or % weapon damage, or even something else?

[Deleted]

A: Retribution Paladins will be balanced with the expectation that they’re using 3 total Greater Blessings (not necessarily just Might).
.

This is the most ridiculous answer I've seen. Are they trying to say that our abilities receive a 3% nerf everytime we use GBoM? If not, how on earth do you tune our damage around giving another raid member ticking health and mana?

[Anardel]

This is the most ridiculous answer I've seen. Are they trying to say that our abilities receive a 3% nerf everytime we use GBoM? If not, how on earth do you tune our damage around giving another raid member ticking health and mana?

I was thinking the same. Everytime we use a GBoM, no matter what, we have a 3% nerf in dmg? And if we don't use GBoM then we don't receive a nerf? An answer that in fact, is not an answer :S

[Deleted]

This is the most ridiculous answer I've seen. Are they trying to say that our abilities receive a 3% nerf everytime we use GBoM? If not, how on earth do you tune our damage around giving another raid member ticking health and mana?

That was a non-answer in itself , my guess is they have no idea themselfs currently and couldn't just let the question be because this would seem a bit fishy.
But we can at least exept that we are rudemtary designed with at least one might in mind - cause balancing our damage around non damaging Blessings is a bit retarded isn't it?

[Deleted]

That was a non-answer in itself , my guess is they have no idea themselfs currently and couldn't just let the question be because this would seem a bit fishy.
But we can at least exept that we are rudemtary designed with at least one might in mind - cause balancing our damage around non damaging Blessings is a bit retarded isn't it?

Yeah, it's a non-answer. All i can think is that they have this "performance budget" that takes several things into account, because otherwise it doesn't make sense.
It can also mean we will be balanced in a fight per fight basis with this budget along what they expect we will do with the blessing and adjust resistances on the boss or something.

Anyways, theres no disputing that that was no answer. What the hell does that even mean? 0, 1, 2, 3?

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This is the most ridiculous answer I've seen. Are they trying to say that our abilities receive a 3% nerf everytime we use GBoM? If not, how on earth do you tune our damage around giving another raid member ticking health and mana?

I would actually be ok with that if it worked that way. Chances are i wouldn't buff anyone though haha. Since they say we are balanced by using 3 blessings, i doubt not using them is a viable choice.

If i had to guess, this is them saying... we expect you to use blessings and we expect not all of them to be might. So, i would say they will balance it between 1 and 2. 3 to 5% of our damage i expect.
It means that using all 3 at maximum efficiency will cause gains. So... it could be worse. But, this is just speculation ofc.

[Ulthane]

You are forgetting the multiple things in there.
Of course in a vacuum speaking this may be correct , but.
BoJ Deals 3x the damage once it crits instead of the 2x.

And with that the secondary stats will be a far more important factor in this aswell.
Because more haste will benefit BoJ to a greater extend than it would with BoW. So the more secondary stats we will get , and keep in mind there is a DR on SecStats now , the better BoJ actually becomes. And with that , we will most likely keep on going unto all 3 secStats more or less equaly so that there won't be any longer the Mastery stacking which we are having currently but more a , more or less , equilibirum between them.

This is all in all a bit more complicated than it may seem. Again instead of just looking at the things within a vacuum the bigger pictures makes the deal here.
With BoW we will probably focus more on Mastery with haste but mastery first and foremost. But with that of course we will have less crit and since everything we are having right now are heavy hitters this can be a loss of value in this. And of course the less haste you actually got the fewer Judges you can bring in over the course of the fight and with that we will loose the high damage of the actuall judge itself and clossal judg window.

Of course this may be the case that we will go on both cases to the same level of stats aswell , but still because of the 12 sec compared to the 8 of BoW , BoJ will be reduced far more with haste than BoW will be and i wonder at what point of haste this will come so close to BoW that the talent itself is litteraly useless as it stands.
Especially conserding things like SacWrath that virtually let's you spam the shit out of BoJ.

This is something i wanted to point out as well but due to being tired as hell and mobile device wording is a pain in the ass which is why Blade of Wrath needs a buff in damage.

You wont be able to actually stack stats, people are forgetting that or not realizing it. The way gear is in HFC per se is how we will see gear in Legion with secondaries. That being said more BoJ with 3x crits happening alot would dwarf the damage done by Blade of Wrath. Sure Blade of Wrath has that 8 second cooldown but with Sanctified Wrath does it really matter?

Real talk: Whole blade of justice row needs to be looked at.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Great answers. Those were really the pressing issues that required attention, sure as sure.
and the answers are indeed very great.

[Ulthane]

Well, it'll really come down to which off-set pieces etc we want given that we can't reforge gear, but we'll certainly want certain stats over others as usual. Maybe they'll shift with certain break points, and we can be all but certain that mastery will be more or less valuable based on the amount of AE vs ST in a fight... but honestly I think it'll be a case of:

1. If mostly ST, go M>C>H (for example)
2. If mostly cleave AE on the boss, go M>H>C
3. If much running or AE, reroll

:P


True, but the think with BoW is the extra HP generation - 33% more HP is rather significant in the long run.

This is true as well.

Also @ruiizu thank you for the testing on Blade of Wrath stuff.

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Great answers. Those were really the pressing issues that required attention, sure as sure.
and the answers are indeed very great.

Sure as sure they were! Someone, fetch this guy a fething cookie and test his mobility!

[Teleros]

This is the most ridiculous answer I've seen. Are they trying to say that our abilities receive a 3% nerf everytime we use GBoM? If not, how on earth do you tune our damage around giving another raid member ticking health and mana?

I dunno, I read it as "triple GBoM means free / extra damage above what you're 'supposed' to do".

I mean, realistically they're not going to nerf our damage by 3% per GBoM we cast, so that means they either (a) balance us around triple GBoM or (b) balance us around 1-2 GBoM.

If the former, well you're stuck using triple GBoM in raids etc to do expected DPS. If the latter, which "not necessarily Might" implies, then using triple GBoM is a DPS bonus at the expense of GBoW on a healer or something.

[Ulthane]

@ruiizu Also, in regard to Execution Sentence being clunky this is why I had said before it should either be instant damage or places a debuff that is consumed when you use Judgment that deals the damage. Just saying <.< with how Judgment works and that it was VERY obvious it was going to be too clunky to manage properly.

[Taeldorian]

This is the most ridiculous answer I've seen. Are they trying to say that our abilities receive a 3% nerf everytime we use GBoM? If not, how on earth do you tune our damage around giving another raid member ticking health and mana?

Not sure what their plan is here, I really wish they would be a bit more open with their answers.

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I dunno, I read it as "triple GBoM means free / extra damage above what you're 'supposed' to do".

I mean, realistically they're not going to nerf our damage by 3% per GBoM we cast, so that means they either (a) balance us around triple GBoM or (b) balance us around 1-2 GBoM.

If the former, well you're stuck using triple GBoM in raids etc to do expected DPS. If the latter, which "not necessarily Might" implies, then using triple GBoM is a DPS bonus at the expense of GBoW on a healer or something.

This sounds about right. Would make sense, but puts us in a weird situation. They did say they aren't necessarily balancing us around just GBoM though, so I feel like it's the latter. Makes the most sense. There's no way they're going to balance us around 3 GBoM, that's not realistic because in most cases guilds are going to want at least 1 wisdom up, depending on the guild of course and it's requirements for progression. As I said before though, they said they aren't balancing us around just GBoM, so maybe if we have 2 GBoMs up we do as much damage as if we had 3? I'm not sure.

@ruiizu I agree for sure, I've been constantly asking for lower CDs on abilities to make the rotation less clunky, specifically judgement. I know that haste makes it better, SW proves this, but it doesn't stop it from being clunky when the judgement window expires. Here's the thing though, with enough haste you will hardly have to hold back a spender to wait for judgement. By the time you have 5 HoPo judgement should have 2 seconds left, which means you could use either ES in that time frame or just wait out the 2 seconds. ES is definitely a bit clunky though, and I would prefer Ulthanes idea of it just dealing damage right away rather than over time, because you can only avoid the problem of overlapping or not having to wait once, then ES will be on CD the next time around. I'd rather judgement be on a shorter CD with a longer duration as I've said 10000 times before, would make life easier. I have absolutely no idea why they don't just increase the duration. I don't think they realize that holy power isn't the same as rage, and doesn't work the same with this mechanic at all. Still hoping for a longer duration/shorter CD, that's somewhat considered tuning I'd say, could definitely still happen, especially since they said they'll still be doing revisions/improving specs.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Sure as sure they were! Someone, fetch this guy a fething cookie and test his mobility!

this Storm moves for no man.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Sanctified Wrath really only seems to work if you use abilities that cost Holy Power

[Taeldorian]

Sanctified Wrath really only seems to work if you use abilities that cost Holy Power

Not really a problem. The 3 spenders you use during the judgement window max it I believe. SW also makes us do decent damage outside of the damage window, and burst damage inside the window. That's why I say we will have good sustained ST/good burst ST as long as nothing gets nerfed. I do expect SW to get a nerf though, but I don't know about that so we'll have to see.

[Ulthane]

Not really a problem. The 3 spenders you use during the judgement window max it I believe. SW also makes us do decent damage outside of the damage window, and burst damage inside the window. That's why I say we will have good sustained ST/good burst ST as long as nothing gets nerfed. I do expect SW to get a nerf though

I think the nerf might be how much is max stacks or how much you get per stack. Honestly though the concept is amazing and i hope that concept stays.

I thought for a second it was going to be super OP because I thought you got the 35% on top of that then i realized its a replacement ability. In PvP with mobility issues keeping up on a target might be a royal pain in the ass, also Judgment uptime.

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this Storm moves for no man.

Ruuuuuuuude XD

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@Taeldorian I mean hell, increase the CD of ES if instant or that mechanic where Judgment triggers it is op. As it is, I wont take it, too clunky, too much room for error.

My own little way of going about life im going this route
-Final Verdict
-Zeal
-Fist of Justice
-Blade of Wrath or Virtue's Blade
-Justicar's Vengeance
-Divine Intervention
-Sanctified Wrath

Why? Because I have a bias and I love abilities that replace abilities, feels nice to me. Also the toss up with Virtue's Blade is that I also love high hitting attacks very much but Blade of Wrath also appeals just wish it hit harder though. JV just looks fun, wtb Alpha to test... and SW looks flipping amazing. A cooldown that is actually a cooldown. Also going Zeal because I just flat dont care, I want to hit harder with everything I do.

[Taeldorian]

I think the nerf might be how much is max stacks or how much you get per stack. Honestly though the concept is amazing and i hope that concept stays.

I thought for a second it was going to be super OP because I thought you got the 35% on top of that then i realized its a replacement ability. In PvP with mobility issues keeping up on a target might be a royal pain in the ass, also Judgment uptime.


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@Taeldorian I mean hell, increase the CD of ES if instant or that mechanic where Judgment triggers it is op. As it is, I wont take it, too clunky, too much room for error.

My own little way of going about life im going this route
-Final Verdict
-Zeal
-Fist of Justice
-Blade of Wrath or Virtue's Blade
-Justicar's Vengeance
-Divine Intervention
-Sanctified Wrath

Why? Because I have a bias and I love abilities that replace abilities, feels nice to me. Also the toss up with Virtue's Blade is that I also love high hitting attacks very much but Blade of Wrath also appeals just wish it hit harder though. JV just looks fun, wtb Alpha to test... and SW looks flipping amazing. A cooldown that is actually a cooldown. Also going Zeal because I just flat dont care, I want to hit harder with everything I do.

Yeah, I'm assuming how much we get per stack is going to get nerfed. On Alpha right now it makes our damage inside the window burst damage and outside of the window normal sustained ST damage, already said this though. On the other hand, SW is going to be really good for cleave too, haven't had a chance to test a cleave fight yet in a raid, going to try it in a dungeon later.

That seems fine, JV is definitely an interesting mechanic. Fires of justice might pull ahead of zeal though, not sure because the first tuning pass hasn't happened yet.I would much rather see instant damage with a longer CD on ES,and obviously the longer duration on judgement. I'm assuming that'll happen sometime along the way, but I'll be pushing for it until it does. They definitely have to know that HoPo isn't as smooth with this mechanic as rage is, but a longer duration would help that.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

It would be more smooth of Holy Power was just generated by our generators up to a big number, not by 6. This is an example btw not necessarily expecting it to come in Legion example.


THIS IS AN EXAMPLE, NOT SOMETHING VIABLE TO GO IN LEGION. I mean I wish but it won't.

Holy Power maximum goes up to 100

Crusader Strike generates 20 Holy Power

Blade of Virtue/Blade of Wrath generates 30 Holy Power

See where I'm going with this. It's not nearly as clunky ish

As for Divine Hammer. I'd say generate 10 Holy Power per hit on target.

But that's just example. Not necessarily something that's completely balance =)

[Alindra]

A couple thoughts:

* I don't like the new Execution Sentence, but it may be deceptively powerful. If timed right, it may be possible to get 3 HP spenders off within a single Judgment window. That is, ES -> (filler) -> Judgment -> TV -> builder -> TV with ES landing somewhere between Judgment and the last TV. Also consider that if you have a DP proc that is going to expire before Judgment is off CD, you could use ES beforehand.

* How does Fires of Justice interact with Sanctified Wrath? SW gives us a +dmg/haste stack per HP spent, but Fire's proc decreases the cost. Does that mean TV would give us 2 or 3 stacks? I could see it going either way.

[Taeldorian]

It would be more smooth of Holy Power was just generated by our generators up to a big number, not by 6. This is an example btw not necessarily expecting it to come in Legion example.


THIS IS AN EXAMPLE, NOT SOMETHING VIABLE TO GO IN LEGION. I mean I wish but it won't.

Holy Power maximum goes up to 100

Crusader Strike generates 20 Holy Power

Blade of Virtue/Blade of Wrath generates 30 Holy Power

See where I'm going with this. It's not nearly as clunky ish

As for Divine Hammer. I'd say generate 10 Holy Power per hit on target.

But that's just example. Not necessarily something that's completely balance =)

Unfortunately, this system is literally rage/maelstrom. Use attacks that build up your resource and dump that resource into bigger attacks. It's nothing unique to paladin, although I admit I'd prefer rage/maelstrom to holy power because holy power is practically clunky with anything new, but there are definitely many who wouldn't.