Is it time to scrap Character Levels?

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Sounds like the old Hero Games model replacing the Dungeons & Dragons model. Back in the day...

In Hero Games (Champions was what they were known for, but they had fantasy and sci-fi versions too) there were no charater levels. Instead you earned points to spend on your character. You still had classes that filtered your options, but you could negotiate with the GM regarding what made sense for you to learn.

Typical fantasy characters started with around 100 points to spend. Super heroes from the comic-book game started with 250. An evening of gaming might earn you 3-5 points. 1 point got you started on a new skill; 3 points made you pretty good at it. Strength of the game was the freedom to customize your character.

[Morssoe]

Wish blizzard didn't force you to update from vanilla to tbc, and kept each expansion a separate game. They could make seasons for each version. I think starting fresh is cool way to engage mmo activity. Now you don't really have a choice, you either push forward hating the game, or play legacy servers.

I also like small numbers, cause those items look reasonable.

[Deleted]

What do you call a person that bought X ability versus someone who has bought one less? You still have levels but you just don't want to call them levels for physiological reasons. If its all in your head then there is no reason to change the game. Change your mind.

That was an example for complete removal, I personally would say keep leveling to 50 and then never raise the cap. So you keep the RPG factor but keep the whole word semi-relevant, something people ask for with the scaling, which is the first step to making level irrelevant.

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And lots of new players (and current players) love leveling. They love the stories that are told, and the zones and environments they travel through. Don't rip out half of the game just because you personally can't sit through a few hours of questing.

They still can tell these storys? Questing doesn't vanish just because you don't have a level or can get a higher level.

[StraTosSpeAr]

Leveling is fine.

Yea, the numbers are a bit jarring at this point, but leveling is still faster than 1-60 was in Vanilla.

I think the bigger issue is just that old zones become so useless. You don't need to scrap levels to fix that.

[Deleted]

No, as the removal of levels would make the complete leveling content even more obsolete as it already is.

Blizzard would have to find ways to make old leveling regions endgame then.

[Deleted]

Very well reasoned discussion on this thread!

I think mostly logistically it would be impossible for players to let go. It'd change a huge "part" and "identity" of the game.
I also think, for newer players, the feeling of progression helps any game, and when it's one so very easily quantifiable (even my Mum could understand Level 110 being better than Level 12), I think it's probably best for the game. It also allows you to experience content in a way conducive to story-telling. It's also helpful for roping off content that you're not supposed to be doing yet, and even if you replaced it with another system, it'd be one harder to understand.

[Tomana]

So you remove the word level, but still have levels? A rose by any other name is still a rose. What determines when a character learns X ability? What do you call a character that had earned two more abilities then another character? Every idea that says levels are bad and need to be scrapped still contain levels. They just rename the system and say its better when it is just levels.

You still have character POWER, yes. As you progress, your character becomes increasingly more powerful. And you still keep that notion of progress - otherwise it's not an MMO. However, in the proposed mechanic, a player can create a character, equip some BOE stuff and go somewhere with the guild or friends. Not all buttons are required everywhere. You get a basic toolkit right from the start and the possibility of jumping into the fray with friends. You can always get other cool buttons later.

[Deleted]

if its not broken don't fix it

I get that. But the point is that levels are broken.

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No, as the removal of levels would make the complete leveling content even more obsolete as it already is.

Blizzard would have to find ways to make old leveling regions endgame then.

Assuming Blizzard scaled the entire world like they do on the Broken Isles, I think the outcome would be the opposite of what you describe.

[Deleted]

Assuming Blizzard scaled the entire world like they do on the Broken Isles, I think the outcome would be the opposite of what you describe.

What would be the incentive to play the leveling content?

Currently it is basic character progression.

What do you want to offer to altoholics, which level chars just because they like leveling?

What happens to low level pvp players? Would they have to play endgame pvp?

[Snes]

Rather than scrap the levelling system, I'd be in favour of a "character level squish" in conjunction with Legion's "zone scaling".

[Deleted]

Adding to my former questions:

What is going to happen to old endgame content?
Would it become current endgame content? Would people still be able to solo it?

The big problem is that removing leveling and character levels could potentially also take away, probably unintended, gameplay people got used to.

[Gothicshark]

What the hell? The leveling part of WOW is just as important as the end game.

Especially at times like this when the end game is stupid, time to level Alts and wait for the next expansion.

[Deleted]

So much this.

I have no idea why people are so focused on fixing things in the game that aren't broken.

Well the ever growing levels do actually contribute to the ridiculous power surges that we experience between and during expansions. There's really no need to keep going; and stopping would remove the necessity for number squishes that are going to become more and more frequent.

Suramar is a prime example of how to do zones and content, and how to tell a story. So much of what exists in any given expansion can be tied into a story like any normal game. The power creep can then be tied into the gear and the gear alone, and have much smaller gains.

I personally think that Suramar is a test-bed for this exact reason, and Blizzard will stop the levelling in a future expansion.

Levelling is not broken per se.....but it's certainly outlived its usefulness, and will create more problems if it continues to increase. A redo of the whole levelling experience for new characters is almost definitely going to be a big focus for Blizzard in whatever follows Legion.

[Queen of Hamsters]

No, because leveling doesn't need to die just because you reach a certain number...
I really enjoy that leveling experience with a new expansion, seeing everyone else level around me and all that jazz.

[Stacie]

And lots of new players (and current players) love leveling. They love the stories that are told, and the zones and environments they travel through. Don't rip out half of the game just because you personally can't sit through a few hours of questing.

You can still tell a story without having the leveling, you can give rewards instead of levels to satisfy a huge majority of those. Leveling is off putting for allot of people. I have lost count how many friends wanted to check the game out and ditched it before level 40. Unless leveling is mind blowing fun so fun that even maxed players want to go back and help a friend it doesnt work well. Something like scaling your toon down to friends level to quest with them could in theory work if rewards are good enough. But then you still have to redo old quests and be able to redo them. If not your friends will be leveling solo in an mmo and not getting the cool end game experience and will likely quit before cap. Another thing scaling them up making leveling irrelevant so they can raid/instance with you.

[Cien]

I get that. But the point is that levels are broken. [.

in YOUR eyes :P

[rhorle]

You still have character POWER, yes. As you progress, your character becomes increasingly more powerful. And you still keep that notion of progress - otherwise it's not an MMO. However, in the proposed mechanic, a player can create a character, equip some BOE stuff and go somewhere with the guild or friends. Not all buttons are required everywhere. You get a basic toolkit right from the start and the possibility of jumping into the fray with friends. You can always get other cool buttons later.

But that still has levels if you have character power and some characters having more innate abilities then others because they have more power. So nothing is changed except removing a word and making a new system when the current one does just fine. It also sounds like you want less levels, or more boosts rather then no levels. This is always the problem when these discussions come around because the fix is not about removing levels but bringing about something else.

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Well the ever growing levels do actually contribute to the ridiculous power surges that we experience between and during expansions. There's really no need to keep going; and stopping would remove the necessity for number squishes that are going to become more and more frequent.

Character levels have nothing to do with that. "Power surges" are because of item levels and the nature of the tier system. Each expansion inflates the item level by X tiers. Which means the next expansion isn't a linear increase because it starts at the last tiers level. As long as that is the case then there will always be item or stat squishes. And that will always be the case even when removing levels because gear isn't removed with character levels.

Character levels server to reset the expansions content and get the starting end-game content back to a linear scale. Leveling is hardly a problem in WoW right now even for truly new players. Does it take time? Yes but it isn't that quick and remember that truly new players will not have to level from 1 because of the boosts.

[Thornquist]

Well, leveling is basically redundant anyway. Everything revolves around the endgame now.

That is the biggest problem I have about this game though. So I would have to say that I personally would prefer a much bigger emphasis on leveling, but this would clearly come at the cost of a balanced endgame - so its maybe impossible to do without pissing of the vast majority of current players.

[Lionhearte0]

You would do this sort of thing with a new game, not try and change something so drastically that has been around for 10 years..

Because Blizzard isn't known for radically changing their game from patch to patch, yea?

To OP, I'd much prefer a level squish, to not only adjust the numbers and leveling flow, but to also have skills come at a more even pace. Right now it's like, "Yay, level 16, I got this taunt ability I'm never going to use because I'm strictly DPS, when's my next ability?! Oh, level 26, and it's a heal.. Okay."

I'd like a return to new spells/skills every 2 levels. With a squish back down to level 60 or so, that could be more easily achievable. If you factor in things like Talents, of course.

[Celarent]

I wish all of the space in each zone and the development time invested in them were instead something we interacted with throughout the expansion, rather than 90% of it all blurs on the Autobahn. Gearing is essentially leveling, so we'd have plenty to work towards.