[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Snegovik]

That's what I probably am going to do as well, except rather than going DH my guild said I could go holy if I really wanted, so that's what I plan on doing. I certainly hope that the giant increase in data will help with the feedback issue we seem to have, might also provide them with factual data to back up the feedback that might be provided, so that's all we can bank on. Still though, holy is looking damn good and after the last build so is prot, have to many hours played on my paladin as well as to many unique things like CMs and such, so I'll just hit up one of the other two specs.

Like if I get Beta invite, then i will actually spend time posting on official blizzard forums, but otherwise i wont bother :P, but knowing blizzard i doubt they will give me beta invite since i only pvp.
I will never go holy, i take lives, pwns nubs and carry BGs on my shoulders :P but i refuse to heal nubs and being a punching bag for every dps , hence DH or Fury war for me.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Going to have to say I disagree about Divine Hammer not activating the Hand of Hindrance talent. It should definitely activate it on its initial use, but not on subsequent "ticks" of the spell. Seems crap that 1 version of the spell is basically a guaranteed "you won't be using this with this talent" just because it doesn't work at all.

Too bad too, because Divine Hammer is a nice out of combat Holy Power builder and Rogue finder.

I mean it goes behind Blade of Justice in terms of damage(Hits 400% weapon damage after 8 seconds). I think people will go for the other talents. I do see Divine Hammer good to generate Holy Power and those pesky rogues.

Just my opinion though.

[ruiizu]

I mean it goes behind Blade of Justice in terms of damage(Hits 400% weapon damage after 8 seconds). I think people will go for the other talents. I do see Divine Hammer good to generate Holy Power and those pesky rogues.

Just my opinion though.

Blade of Justice does 405% (physical) x 1.24 per 12, Divine Hammer does 250% (holy) x 1.24 per 8. So for every 24 seconds, BoJ does 810% x 1.24, Divine Hammer does 750% x 1.24. Divine Hammer will do more damage overall by itself, but it generates 33% less Holy Power.

It's actually a pretty powerful choice given that it can hit multiple targets and can be used when you're not in range to still generate Holy Power. However, it doesn't slow with Law and Order and it also doesn't have 12 yard range (only 8).

Edit: Obviously Divine Hammer also requires you to stay in range for the full 8 seconds to benefit entirely.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Blade of Justice does 405% (physical) x 1.24 per 12, Divine Hammer does 250% (holy) x 1.24 per 8. So for every 24 seconds, BoJ does 810% x 1.24, Divine Hammer does 750% x 1.24. Divine Hammer will do more damage overall by itself, but it generates 33% less Holy Power.

It's actually a pretty powerful choice given that it can hit multiple targets and can be used when you're not in range to still generate Holy Power. However, it doesn't slow with Law and Order and it also doesn't have 12 yard range (only 8).

Edit: Obviously Divine Hammer also requires you to stay in range for the full 8 seconds to benefit entirely.

I dunno, I think the idea of doing bigger damage quicker then something like Divine Hammer but like I said, that is just me. I won't lie it is enticing with the Holy Power generation(Or rather the rate you could generate HP).

[Snegovik]

Blade of Justice does 405% (physical) x 1.24 per 12, Divine Hammer does 250% (holy) x 1.24 per 8. So for every 24 seconds, BoJ does 810% x 1.24, Divine Hammer does 750% x 1.24. Divine Hammer will do more damage overall by itself, but it generates 33% less Holy Power.

It's actually a pretty powerful choice given that it can hit multiple targets and can be used when you're not in range to still generate Holy Power. However, it doesn't slow with Law and Order and it also doesn't have 12 yard range (only 8).

Edit: Obviously Divine Hammer also requires you to stay in range for the full 8 seconds to benefit entirely.

I though DH does 200% dmg not 250.

[Bolt66]

That's what I probably am going to do as well, except rather than going DH my guild said I could go holy if I really wanted, so that's what I plan on doing. I certainly hope that the giant increase in data will help with the feedback issue we seem to have, might also provide them with factual data to back up the feedback that might be provided, so that's all we can bank on. Still though, holy is looking damn good and after the last build so is prot, have to many hours played on my paladin as well as to many unique things like CMs and such, so I'll just hit up one of the other two specs.

I sure hope this (bolded part) is the case but I'm somewhat afraid that the only people affected by all of this "drama" are the ones here who wish to play Ret and perform competitively. Ret is such a widely played spec (due in no small part to its lore and fantasy) that the number of people playing it may not sway that much even in light of such bad design.

Even now if you go and look at the paladin forums there are those who are happy with the changes (and even the idea of Equality, yikes!). These are the people who will also go into beta and give the devs positive feedback because they don't need a fluid rotation or meaningful utility/mobility. They are satisfied as long as the spec can do world quests, which is fine but totally screws over the people here.

I hope that all of the above is wrong, but it is my fear...

[Aeluron Lightsong]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...5401?page=2#25


This guy seems to be pretty clear on Ret's problems. One person though named Lobster seems to be ok with Equality, saying it's Situational and such. I won't pick Equality...ever. Sorry Blizz but the talent IMO sucks.

[morislayer]

Has anyone tested Reckoning's damage and "charge" mechanic? I ask because it never seems to be brought up and I for one see huge potential for a range CD usage as Ret in PVP & PVE. This would require swapping Reckoning & Equality in there respective spots, which I don't think a single person would mind.

Moving on the feedback posted by Arrent, a great way to make ret's playstyle a bit more tolerable would be to have HP expand to 10. That way, Wake is never wasted, and keep abilities at 3, and that way we are using finishers more. This would also help aoe burst where we can store HP in anticipation or wait till judgement to unleash our power.

I think a neat mechanic would have Hammer of Reckoning, as a 100 lvl talent, consume all your HP (similar to FB for druids) and do a large chunk of additional damage, regardless of judgement window on a 20-45s second CD. This would add a flavor to the tree where we are not just judgement smashing and replace the 3 minute burst with a single target burst which you have to juggle HP to maximize.

EDIT: Would also like to see ES do more damage on sub 30%, that way its more appealing to the HoW crowd and basically functions like Soul Reaper (think SR was removed from DK's)

[ruiizu]

I though DH does 200% dmg not 250.

Instantly deals 50% weapon damage, then 50% every 2 seconds (2, 4, 6, 8 second ticks). 250% total. Even at 10% armor reduction, Divine Hammer does the most non-crit damage of the 3 skills in just "plain" damage. Against 30% reduction targets it's a much larger difference, since you're looking at 810% x .7 (approx -240% damage for approx 560% vs. 750% of Divine Hammer...over 24 seconds, mind you, applying common multiple principle).

[Snegovik]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...5401?page=2#25


This guy seems to be pretty clear on Ret's problems. One person though named Lobster seems to be ok with Equality, saying it's Situational and such. I won't pick Equality...ever. Sorry Blizz but the talent IMO sucks.

ya i left post regarding equality and few thoughts how to improve it, since at current state it is only viable in duels or casual BGs

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Instantly deals 50% weapon damage, then 50% every 2 seconds (2, 4, 6, 8 second ticks). 250% total. Even at 10% armor reduction, Divine Hammer does the most non-crit damage of the 3 skills in just "plain" damage. Against 30% reduction targets it's a much larger difference, since you're looking at 810% x .7 (approx -240% damage for approx 560% vs. 750% of Divine Hammer...over 24 seconds, mind you, applying common multiple principle).

Ya i und ur math ). It can be def viable vs some comp asp melee clvs and RBGs, still gotta see after tuning how mobile casters will be and their instant dmg abilities, since for example i wouldnt pick this talent if i was to chase a mage or a hunter around the map

Edit: this def will be very very nice vs UH and Demo with their masive number of pets, since a good chunk of Demo's dmg for example seems to come from pets

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A bit off topic: Fury wars have PvP talent "Thirst for Battle", it makes Bloodthirst (4.5 sec cd) clear ALL snares and increase moving speed by 15% for 2 seconds. So Ladies and Gets, atm Warriors are more mobile than Rets, have better Self Heals, have better D-cds, have MS-debuff, better immunity to cc (Spell reflect and BS), dmg wise? not sure but should be some what similar to Ret's.

I wonder how Blizzard will justify this one XD....

While other Melee DPS get tools that required for a competitive PvP, Rets get short end of the stick :P again, what a surprise.

[Deleted]

I love you guys in here, but that still doesn't answer the question. How are they supposed to change our class with ideas that we believe would work if we don't tell them those ideas? Are they mind readers? I haven't seen any feedback regarding the judgement mechanic other than "it's not good" which isn't helpful, at all. Blizzard. specifically Ion has already answered that kind of feedback and saying they tend to stay away from that because it's not helpful feedback. They want to know why it sucks and what they can do to improve it, but how can they do that if we don't provide them with feedback regarding the issue?

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I can see what you're saying, but that still doesn't answer the question. Not trying to be stubborn, I'm trying to get an answer. "Most people gave up on trying to post" That's absolute shit. The past 4-5 builds haven't contained a single bit of what we've been discussing in here. They're either 1. About equality, 2. About mobility (this is fine and good feedback) or 3. "Judgement mechanic sucks". That's great, it sucks, tell them why and what they need to do to fix it. How can they fix it if we don't give them our ideas? We want judgement charges or a longer duration and shorter CD on judgement? Wonderful! Provide feedback on it, I haven't seen anyone provide feedback, or even a bit of feedback, regarding the fixes we've come up with in here. Sure, not everyone reads these forums, but I can guarantee a majority definitely do, especially during the beta cycle.

Is it that a large majority of the paladins on alpha don't read these forums? Or is it that they do and just don't provide the feedback regarding solutions we've come up with that we believe would help balance out the rotation making it easier to deal with as a concept? Not trying to side with Blizzard here, I don't agree with a lot of their design philosophies, but I still haven't seen an answer to the question I'm proposing.

Hate to say it, but playing fantasty class designer isn't helping Blizzard at all. They pay people to do that in real life. I guarantee that they read mmo-champ, and I also guarantee that they're not looking to design by democracy - terrible idea. I'm not saying any of the ideas here are shit, I'm just saying they'll never EVER be used. Have you ever noticed that Blizzard only gets around to communicating with feedback when they agree something is unintended? By and large, if it's people complaining about an intended state of affairs, you'll just get silence. I don't imagine that they don't care what we all think, it's more that they have a vision for the class and expect us to adjust to that, not design their classes to adjust to our expectations. Thus it has always been, and playing class designer has only been worthy as an exercise in intelligence.

[Teleros]

Same thing happened to Light's Hope Chapel in Wrath and that was one of the best moments in Wow.

It didn't though, that's kind of the point of the event at Light's Hope Chapel. The mightiest forces the Scourge had ("Acherus could roflstomp Naxxramas, Mr Newbie DK") attacked, and the souls of the slain duly wasted them all. Twice, if you count the attack on LHC* that happened in the Ashbringer comics.

*Light's Hadron Collider :P ?

[Reghame]

Reg, did you have chance to try out SW in PvP, how does 75% dmg/haste feel like ? Personally, i think classes like Rogues, droods, mages, hunters will give us a hard time to ramp up those stacks under PVE rotation, thoughts ?

Its really easy to stack, and once you start stacking, you start ramping faster, and harder..... the way the talent works and how some of our talents/spells are, we can get it going really quick even in PVP. if you blow that CD now, its as if you had wings and had DP chain procing because the damage output in that small window goes WAAAAY up.

also, the PVP talent that activates wings when someone goes below 40% also pops SW. its almost like a mini defensive if you can blow some holypower and get the haste to spam flashes real quick. Not gona say its better than vengeance aura (cause lol its fucking not, that talent is fucking OP as shit) but it is very cool when it happens.

BTW, if you get stacked with this talent, ranged targets are no longer an issue. The amount of CDR you get via 75% haste makes judgment's cooldown like 5 or so seconds and the ability hits hard as fuck in PVP. you literally kill any and everything once you get it stacked, same with PVE too.

[Deleted]

Its really easy to stack, and once you start stacking, you start ramping faster, and harder..... the way the talent works and how some of our talents/spells are, we can get it going really quick even in PVP... -snip-

On which terms and grounds did you test it? Duels, public BGs, 2vs2 Arena, 3vs3 Arena, 5vs5 Arena, Rated BGs?
Did you test it against experienced players or total noobs, against teams in which players were attuned to each other or just casually playing together?

This are important information chunks. If you'd want to switch it around: Would you say a spec operates great in mythic raids if it operates only good in a normal dungeon with people you met using dungeon finder? It's the same with PvP, doing great in public BGs and duels doesn't necessarily mean the same against experienced players /teams in a "professional" environment.
I don't mean to "diss" you or anything, but I'm really interested nowadays in the ways you test those things because a huge deal of people here that are experienced and credible in those fields think otherwise.
Why is their opinion so much different than yours? I doubt it's only because they can't test it for themselves, after a time you get a feeling for if something looks good or not.

[Demsi]

Where's my no-beta paladin brothers at? c'mere, let us cry together

[rubenmsalles]

Well, beta is here now and ret is garbage
fury wars heals more than every other dps spec (almost hybrid classes without taxes)
mages can oneshot you
untouchable hunters, rogues, monks, druids
and eternal absorbs bubbles of priests
all have amazing movement abilities so there will be much fun when the sun touch your class

in other news:
so, the casual/levelingwhenbored ret dream is true: a useless dps (can't be in meele range most of the fight), that can throw a heal here and there every 2 minutes, buff their allies to top charts, then to the rock bottom of dps and fun

[Matt0193]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...5401?page=2#25


This guy seems to be pretty clear on Ret's problems. One person though named Lobster seems to be ok with Equality, saying it's Situational and such. I won't pick Equality...ever. Sorry Blizz but the talent IMO sucks.

"People who downvote Equality posts are stubborn or ill informed"

Nope, the talent is scrub bait and will lead to so much drama in pugs. It's a cluster fuck waiting to happen so why support it? Better to scrap it now and avoid the inevitable bitchfest that's going to occure in every pug when a taunts something they shouldn't.

[Deleted]

"People who downvote Equality posts are stubborn or ill informed"

Nope, the talent is scrub bait and will lead to so much drama in pugs. It's a cluster fuck waiting to happen so why support it? Better to scrap it now and avoid the inevitable bitchfest that's going to occure in every pug when a taunts something they shouldn't.

Equality is awful. It will never work and those people saying its ok in the forums are basically contributing to us only having 2 talents in that tier. Why? Because Equality is the kind of talent that is useless or overpowered. Equality is OP atm. Thats the only way to make it atractive. But once they realise that and nerf it, we will be stuck with the awful talent no one takes.
Seriously... this goes without mentioning the "lets taunt the boss to make this work and piss off the tanks and healers". Will get you hated by the community to use it aswell. Equality is terrible in every sense of the way. Making it OP will we use it? Ofc we will. But the problems the talent brings don't go away.

I just realised... can you imagine LFR with this thing? Ret's taunting bosses left and center. Yeah... this is totally gonna work Blizzard...

[Teleros]

It's a cluster fuck waiting to happen

1: "Wow, seems people are raging about Ret burst in PvP on the forums."
2: "Urgh, not again. What is it this time?"
1: "Equality."
2: "Uhm. Right. BRB."

...

2: "Kalgan?"
K: "Yes?"
2: "About Equality..."
K: "Yeah, I think we should buff it, people hardly ever take it for some reason. Look, my maths shows it's the best of the 3 talents for DPS."
2: "Uhm, actually..."
K: ...
2: "Right. Buff Equality it is."

...

Patch 8.1: Paladin Class Changes

• The "Retribution" specialisation has been renamed "Lawful Stupid".
• Equality does damage equal to 200% of your missing health to all enemies in range, and half this value in PvP.
• Templar's Verdict reduced to 350% weapon damage as Physical.
• Blade of Justice reduced to 300% weapon damage as Physical.
• Judgement duration reduced to 4 sec.
• To further advance the Order Hall campaigns, Light's Hope Chapel has been destroyed by Death Knight engineers, and its inhabitants raised as Death Knight followers. Lawful Stupid Paladins will also receive a new artefact weapon, because Darion Mograine has retrieved the Corrupted Ashbringer from the ruins of Light's Hope Chapel. Paladins can visit a Spirit Healer to upgrade their artefact weapon, until they unlock their new Order Hall in the Dance Studio*.

*The Dance Studio will be added in a future patch. We promise.

[Hofflerand]

This guy seems to be pretty clear on Ret's problems. One person though named Lobster seems to be ok with Equality, saying it's Situational and such. I won't pick Equality...ever. Sorry Blizz but the talent IMO sucks.

Lobster is a skilled and well informed Ret, and I'm not just saying that because I'm fine with Equality. I've known this person for years.

Seriously... this goes without mentioning the "lets taunt the boss to make this work and piss off the tanks and healers". Will get you hated by the community to use it aswell. Equality is terrible in every sense of the way. Making it OP will we use it? Ofc we will. But the problems the talent brings don't go away.

I just realised... can you imagine LFR with this thing? Ret's taunting bosses left and center. Yeah... this is totally gonna work Blizzard...

I'm sure we'll occasionally engineer the perfect Equality but I doubt it'll be our go-to talent for ST, that we'll be taunting bosses left and right. I'm actually looking forward to Equality in PvP. My first impression was "gimmicky," but then I remembered how tired I am of the being trained into the ground for the past two expansions. You don't want to deal with Equality? Hit someone else.