Bastion is just anti-fun -.-

[Endus]

Ive said this two times before, and this is my last attempt to get this clear. Bastions strength and how fun he is to fight with/against are two seperate things. The article linked earlier does a good job explaining it in more words, but the main point is that he is boring. Many of the L2P shouters are trying to bait people into discussing how he isnt OP, but that isnt a point the rest were making in the first place. Even the title of the thread itself mentions fun, not strength, as being the issue. I would repeat the many reasons multiple people have given for this, but so far ive not seen anyone actually argue against it. Only those who divert the discussion to how he isnt OP and people just need to get better and learn to deal with him.

Because most people are saying "he's no fun because he's so OP and hard to beat". Everything after "because" is a L2P issue, and means the original claim, that he's "no fun", holds no merit.

If you mean he's little fun to play because he's so static, I'd have to agree; I thought I'd play Bastion a lot more than I ended up playing him. But I also tend to avoid a bunch of heroes for similar reasons. They're "not fun" to me, and I recognize that's an entirely subjective preference that doesn't reflect on the hero mechanically.

And that's the point; either you have an objective basis for the claim, which is where we get into balance claims, or you don't, and you have to accept that it's just your preference, and it isn't shared as broadly as you think.

[Omnoms]

Because your 'simply' is not quite true.
You either deal with him without making a mistake or you get your team wiped out.
There is hardly a middle ground.

In reality that brings us to two options:
In random games he will probably dominate.
In pro-gaming he will probably be a really bad hero.

It seems like most people are open to buffs that increases his strength in higher rated games, while doing something to address his output in random games.

It's just not quite true that you either lose your team or you deal with him without any mistakes.
A singular player can with little effort of Pharah, Genji, Junkrat, Widowmaker etc... Pick him off within 2-3 shots.
I'm no good player, I only just about break above even regarding kills to deaths, but I still don't see him as this gamechanger that has to have a full team cater to removing him.

People know his back armor is weaker too, right?

[Endus]

I know that Pharah needs around three seconds to deal with him.
In that time a Bastion can push out enough damage to kill six Pharah's.
No matter how you twist it, he's still a damage dealer. And he has the most DPS and health of all.
It's not impossible, but quite hard and almost undoable in the average random game.

Pff, his weak spot is laughable to be honest.
Nearly every hero has a weak spot 360 degrees, his is just on his back.
I've talked with people about this and our conclusion was that his weak spot was basically a buff.

Honestly, looking at this in terms of DPS just straight-up ignores what kind of game Overwatch is.

If you're in a position to eat 450 DPS/second from Bastion, you've already screwed up, and that's why you're gonna die. At reasonable distances, he can't do that much DPS, and if you flank him, he's dealing zero DPS, because he hasn't spotted you. Same for anyone with indirect fire.

Comparing it in a straight-up DPS sense is completely pointless, since you're weighting everything in your comparison in Bastion's favor.

[Tryuk]

I know that Pharah needs around three seconds to deal with him.
In that time a Bastion can push out enough damage to kill six Pharah's.
No matter how you twist it, he's still a damage dealer. And he has the most DPS and health of all.
It's not impossible, but quite hard and almost undoable in the average random game.

Pff, his weak spot is laughable to be honest.
Nearly every hero has a weak spot 360 degrees, his is just on his back.
I've talked with people about this and our conclusion was that his weak spot was basically a buff.

He actually has 2 weak spots in turret form, one on his back that's easy for Tracer to hit, and one on top of him---his head. Both could use larger sizes imo, in particular his head is hard to hit in turret form unless you are directly above him.

[Eats Compost]

Honestly, looking at this in terms of DPS just straight-up ignores what kind of game Overwatch is.

If you're in a position to eat 450 DPS/second from Bastion, you've already screwed up, and that's why you're gonna die. At reasonable distances, he can't do that much DPS, and if you flank him, he's dealing zero DPS, because he hasn't spotted you. Same for anyone with indirect fire.

Comparing it in a straight-up DPS sense is completely pointless, since you're weighting everything in your comparison in Bastion's favor.

Don't forget that Widowmaker and Hanzo are capable of literal one-shots against many heroes. DPS just isn't a good metric in a game like this, it's not an MMO or MOBA.

[Ielenia]

I have zero idea what blizzard was thinking when they implemented this champion. Yes I know he has his counters the few that exist, but trying to kill a bastion with a bunch of random people is a fucking nightmare. Trying to get everyone to group up and not run in single file only to be mowed down by his left click to win auto attack >.> And god forbid the defense team actually protects the bastion as well...have fun with that lol

To be honest, I think Bastion is a little on the OP side, when he gets into turret mode. His gattling gun deals a LOT of damage per bullet, on a VERY LONG continuous fire (200 bullets per clip), and on a MINIMAL spread. Plus his reload time is quite short, as well.

I'm happy Blizzard removed the energy barrier he'd get in turret mode, but, still, I think he's still quite OP unless you're playing one of the very few specific heroes that can counter him.

[Eats Compost]

He actually has 2 weak spots in turret form, one on his back that's easy for Tracer to hit, and one on top of him---his head. Both could use larger sizes imo, in particular his head is hard to hit in turret form unless you are directly above him.

I believe that his head is intentionally difficult to hit in turret form, which is why the back weak spot exists. If his head could be hit from the front in turret mode, killing him safely as Widowmaker or even Hanzo would be trivial in a lot of situations.

[Endus]

Why don't you just type "LOL SCRUBS L2P NOOBS"?
Because that is basically what you have been saying all thread long.

Because the argument from your side has always been "Bastion is OP because we can't run straight at him in a tightly-packed group with zero defense, with nobody shooting at Bastion, from medium range, and survive."

It's a silly argument. It's not about people being "scrubs", it's that your argument about DPS makes no sense in this kind of game.

And how is it weighing anything in favour? It's pointing out facts.
Does another hero do more damage: No. Fact.
Does another damage-dealer have more HP: No. Fact.

Neither are "facts", since you're having to establish that you're talking about medium range engagements across open terrain, against enemies without defenses or who aren't using cover, etc, etc.

Here's a data sheet on hero stats, so we have actual data; https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1751764739

Yes, in Sentry form, he does 450 damage per second to targets close enough that there's no damage falloff (not listed, but it's medium range at best). McCree's right-click fan can deal 420 damage in less than a second, without giving up maneuverability. He's got 300 health, when most highly maneuverable attack heroes have 150-250, but he's not one of them. He's more akin to Torbjorn's turret, which coincidentally, also has 300 health. And far less than, say, Roadhog, who's got 600.

Unless you set the encounter to be in Bastion's ideal conditions, which aren't something you can guarantee in a game, none of this stuff is relevant, and you can't just ignore the immobility factor as if it's not a serious negative that offsets these strengths. Bastion NEEDS that higher damage capacity, or there's no POINT to playing him; you'd just play another hero with comparable sustained fire who DIDN'T have to lock themselves in place to deal it. It isn't a demonstration of a problem to be fixed, because the counterbalance is already there.

And refusing to counterplay by exploiting that weakness is the actual problem. Which is why I suggest learning how to do so. Which isn't calling people "noobs" or "scrubs", it's pointing out that there's a solution you're refusing to take advantage of.

[Tripwire]

Bastion isn't OP, he's actually quite easy to take down. The problem most people have with him is thinking you can take him on just like every other class, run straight ahead trying to take him on and you cant. Flank him, problem solved. You may have to take out a defender or two to get to him, but you'll get him. The only frustrating part about Bastion for me is players get way too many plays of the game with him.

I don't ike playing him, he moves too slow for me.

[Endus]

I have to say that I really think sometimes you guys forget that Sentry mode isn't the ONLY thing that Bastion can do.

Because it's like Mercy's pistol; it's not something you WANT to use, it's something you end up resorting to in a pinch. His mobile mode is pretty much just straight-up worse than anyone else; you're using Bastion for Sentry mode.

[Endus]

That's...not really accurate. Recon mode is actually perfectly capable - your gun is pretty comparable to Soldier 76's, actually - with fairly high HP, a decent self-heal, and you're still building your tank mode charge while carrying the threat of Sentry Mode.

If all you're doing is picking Bastion and instantly plunking down in a spot and never moving, you're every bit as wrong as the guys who refuse to switch to Pharah to uproot you.

Well, I'm not saying you should plunk down and NEVER move, but you made the comparison to Soldier 76; you both have self-heals, but his doesn't shut down his shooting while it's active, and he's got his nexus rockets. This is what I mean by "worse". it's not USELESS, nor is Mercy's handgun, but it's not why you picked the hero at the hero select screen, either.

[Tryuk]

It's quite a good metric.
Perhaps you'd prefer other words like "Can literally kill two average hero's per second."?


Why don't you just type "LOL SCRUBS L2P NOOBS"?
Because that is basically what you have been saying all thread long.

And how is it weighing anything in favour? It's pointing out facts.
Does another hero do more damage: No. Fact.
Does another damage-dealer have more HP: No. Fact.

A) He's an anti-tank, one of the games few, he needs the high dps to be usable at all.
B) Your thinking too straight in damage vs. health, how many heroes he can kill a second is only relevant if you run straight at his face. The game shouldn't be balanced around lemmings

[DeadmanWalking]

A) Oh, I totally agree.
That's why I am not a developer or designer, it's not my job to come up with changes.
I see what makes this hero problematic at some levels of play and quite weak in other levels of play.

B) No matter how you approach him, unless he goes full-retard he will always have a duration to react.
You can flank him with two heroes but if you have to leave cover for a second you're dead.
A really good player could probably avoid that, but even the slightest error will be punished with a rain of bullets.

The problem is that the people who are complaining are approaching him by running at him and maybe zig zag strafing and think that should be good enough to defeat any opponent. Bastion will punish you for that. Hell I have literally jumped on his top and punched him to death with Lucio because I used wall climb skates to move into the doorway and jumped around him from side to side so he couldn't track me fast enough to kill me until I landed on top of him to kill him.

This isn't a problem of bastion being too good, it is a case of people relying on old tactics from every game that won't work on him and refusing to do anything different. On high levels of game pros either don't use him or they don't turret camp because he is easily dismantled by other pro players. There are so many ways to crush bastion and the easiest is to snipe him or use Genji's E. The problem is people incapable of figuring out a new challenge, not bastion.

Hell if half of you would just hit the ' button and tell your team where he was camping your team would kill him before you got back but you would rather not only get repeatedly rolled by bastion throwing your corpses at him but your entire team as well through non-communication.

[Jester Joe]

Why don't you just type "LOL SCRUBS L2P NOOBS"?
Because that is basically what you have been saying all thread long.

And how is it weighing anything in favour? It's pointing out facts.
Does another hero do more damage: No. Fact.
Does another damage-dealer have more HP: No. Fact.

He can literally nuke an entire section of the map and still be not as good as people think.

In my experience, Bastion is possibly one of the most team reliant heroes. He can't do anything really on his own if the enemy team even has one person focusing him. Which I'm pretty sure is what Endus is saying, it's not Bastion that's the issue, it's the lack of teamwork that's the issue.

[Ausr]

The problem is that the people who are complaining are approaching him by running at him and maybe zig zag strafing and think that should be good enough to defeat any opponent. Bastion will punish you for that. Hell I have literally jumped on his top and punched him to death with Lucio because I used wall climb skates to move into the doorway and jumped around him from side to side so he couldn't track me fast enough to kill me until I landed on top of him to kill him.

This isn't a problem of bastion being too good, it is a case of people relying on old tactics from every game that won't work on him and refusing to do anything different. On high levels of game pros either don't use him or they don't turret camp because he is easily dismantled by other pro players. There are so many ways to crush bastion and the easiest is to snipe him or use Genji's E. The problem is people incapable of figuring out a new challenge, not bastion.

Hell if half of you would just hit the ' button and tell your team where he was camping your team would kill him before you got back but you would rather not only get repeatedly rolled by bastion throwing your corpses at him but your entire team as well through non-communication.

Also amazing half of these people complaining don't even take advantage of the environment to get around the enemy team. There are a LOT of ways to get around the map but these people see only 1 opening.

[Endus]

He can literally nuke an entire section of the map and still be not as good as people think.

In my experience, Bastion is possibly one of the most team reliant heroes. He can't do anything really on his own if the enemy team even has one person focusing him. Which I'm pretty sure is what Endus is saying, it's not Bastion that's the issue, it's the lack of teamwork that's the issue.

Right.

If your team is coordinated and paying attention, Bastion's no worse than any other hero; he's arguably easier to handle than a good Widowmaker in a lot of ways.

If you're not coordinated and you keep rushing choke points, then yeah, Bastion is going to chew you to pieces, but you need to recognize that this is because your team is making mistakes, and Bastion is set up to capitalize on those particular errors. Stop making those errors, and he stops being this titanic issue.

- - - Updated - - -

Also amazing half of these people complaining don't even take advantage of the environment to get around the enemy team. There are a LOT of ways to get around the map but these people see only 1 opening.

A lot of this has to do with playing, say, McCree, who has little mobility, and not seeing any other route McCree can take.

Well, you have other heroes. If you can't get through that checkpoint and can't reach that other way around with your current hero, switch to a hero who can. Complaining that there's one door to go through is a bit silly if it's an open-air map and you can play Pharah.

[TheEaterofSouls]

Bastion himself is fine. But every damn play of the game shouldn't be him.

[Deleted]

Junkrat is the real problem. Random grenade spam is way too effective, let alone his ultimate is just retarded damage and radius.

[Mrbleedinggums]

Junkrat is the real problem. Random grenade spam is way too effective, let alone his ultimate is just retarded damage and radius.

You say random. I say random + measuring trajectory when needed to kill that enemy hiding around the corner, or on the other side of the wall. Plus you have counters for him; there are counters for everyone. Everyone can be stupid OP when in a vacuum. Look at Pharah's ultimate, it's stupid OP! Look at Widow, can shoot anyone from a far distance. Stupid OP!

[Anzaman]

Bastion himself is fine. But every damn play of the game shouldn't be him.

Well, if enemy team is stupid enough to run in front of Bastion one by one in small amount of time.. then yeah, it's quite easy to get PotG as Bastion. But as I got into higher MMR games, plenty of other heroes were in the PotG instead of Bastion.