Gold cost for switching specs

[gcsmith]

I've seen that on the artifact calculators at wowhead. Don't know about the artifact power required, but on this link, it's the Hungering Maw sitting in the middle.

http://legion.wowhead.com/artifact-c...RHgESEBUzAVTxQ

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So THAT'S what I've been doing wrong in WoD...

I thought content was meant to be FUN. I should have known that anything that tedious could only have been a chore, not a game...

Cus clicking a button to switch specs is fun? Give me a break. Switching specs isn't content, it's a mechanic that allows you to not have to make 3 paladins to play 3 paladin specs. Also, such a chore to click a button and pay 10 gold.

[PragmaticGamer]

Cus clicking a button to switch specs is fun? Give me a break. Switching specs isn't content, it's a mechanic that allows you to not have to make 3 paladins to play 3 paladin specs. Also, such a chore to click a button and pay 10 gold.

You just said that we should be gold-penalized for doing core parts of the game.

If they're just going to take away gold for playing the game, why not just eliminate the middle man, and just reduce the amount of rewards we get, so they don't have to penny-ante us to death to take it away again?

[gcsmith]

Why should we be punished for switching specs? Whats the use of that?

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Switching specs and talents shouldn't be a mechanic we pay for though. It serves no real purpose.

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Yes, you need a better argument.

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Well, false.

You're not being punished for switching specs, a punishment would be like getting a stacking debuff for an hour every time you switch spec that makes you 10% less effective at your job.

Switching specs should cost you, tell me why you shouldn't, because the purpose of the cost is to make the choice of switching specs non trivial. And seeing as how you're bitching over a cost which maxed out at 62g, I believe they've achieved that.

We don't need a better argument than that, blizzard are giving people exactly what they wanted, it just has a minor cost associated with it. A cost you don't even have to pay if you set your spec to dps and join dungeons as a tank/healer.

And yes, gold sinks are needed as incentives to do content, because guess what? Players often do content only if they find it rewarding. Why else has their been loads of bitching that Suramar has no rewards beyond gold? Because no one needs gold because it has no purpose now beyond luxury items. Even playing on a short amount of time you easily make enough for everything necessary (flight masters and repairs)

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You just said that we should be gold-penalized for doing core parts of the game.

If they're just going to take away gold for playing the game, why not just eliminate the middle man, and just reduce the amount of rewards we get, so they don't have to penny-ante us to death to take it away again?

Gold costs arent penalties...guess you complain about passive durability loss without dying then, cus that's punishing killing things.

Also, what? Complaining that they create ways to take gold away? That's it's purpose, to be a currency. If you didn't need to spend it, you wouldn't need to earn it, meaning all gold rewarding content becomes pointless.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

You're not being punished for switching specs, a punishment would be like getting a stacking debuff for an hour every time you switch spec that makes you 10% less effective at your job.

Switching specs should cost you, tell me why you shouldn't, because the purpose of the cost is to make the choice of switching specs non trivial. And seeing as how you're bitching over a cost which maxed out at 62g, I believe they've achieved that.

We don't need a better argument than that, blizzard are giving people exactly what they wanted, it just has a minor cost associated with it. A cost you don't even have to pay if you set your spec to dps and join dungeons as a tank/healer.

And yes, gold sinks are needed as incentives to do content, because guess what? Players often do content only if they find it rewarding. Why else has their been loads of bitching that Suramar has no rewards beyond gold? Because no one needs gold because it has no purpose now beyond luxury items. Even playing on a short amount of time you easily make enough for everything necessary (flight masters and repairs)

Its a punishment, especially since the cost goes up and serves no purpose at all.

Specs are already trivial.

You need a better argument than that. "Blizzard is right, you're wrong!" isn't an argument.

Your last paragraph doesn't make sense.

[gcsmith]

Its a punishment, especially since the cost goes up and serves no purpose at all.

Specs are already trivial.

You need a better argument than that. "Blizzard is right, you're wrong!" isn't an argument.

Your last paragraph doesn't make sense.

Saying that my argument is blizzard is right, you're wrong, when that wasn't my argument shows me that there is literally no point in arguing with you.

[darkwarrior42]

You're not being punished for switching specs, a punishment would be like getting a stacking debuff for an hour every time you switch spec that makes you 10% less effective at your job.

Switching specs should cost you, tell me why you shouldn't, because the purpose of the cost is to make the choice of switching specs non trivial. And seeing as how you're bitching over a cost which maxed out at 62g, I believe they've achieved that.

We don't need a better argument than that, blizzard are giving people exactly what they wanted, it just has a minor cost associated with it. A cost you don't even have to pay if you set your spec to dps and join dungeons as a tank/healer.

And yes, gold sinks are needed as incentives to do content, because guess what? Players often do content only if they find it rewarding. Why else has their been loads of bitching that Suramar has no rewards beyond gold? Because no one needs gold because it has no purpose now beyond luxury items. Even playing on a short amount of time you easily make enough for everything necessary (flight masters and repairs)

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Gold costs arent penalties...guess you complain about passive durability loss without dying then, cus that's punishing killing things.

Also, what? Complaining that they create ways to take gold away? That's it's purpose, to be a currency. If you didn't need to spend it, you wouldn't need to earn it, meaning all gold rewarding content becomes pointless.

First, sure, gold costs aren't penalties.... and opportunity costs aren't actual costs, right? I mean, sure, by doing one thing you give up the opportunity to do something else, but that's not something you actually paid, so I'm sure they don't actually matter.... right? Alternatively, they're taking a system that hasn't cost money since its original implementation and taking a gold cost onto it. Nobody what label you use, that's not going to feel pleasant.
Edit: My point here, in case it's not clear, is that by quibbling about the name, you're essentially arguing that we shouldn't view this negatively because of terminology. Whatever you care to call it, spec swapping has been free since the system was implemented, and won't be in Legion. That's what we're debating, and changing the terminology from "penalty" to "cost" doesn't affect that reality.

Second, they've been pushing people toward multiple specs for years. Endless content designed such that dps was the way to go for dailies, reducing cost of buying dual-spec, imposing no significant restrictions on when or where you change spec... ever since the idea was implemented, they have progressively done everything in their power to make it easier and more accessible. So the sudden change of direction is anything but logical. (And no matter what they say, I have zero confidence that doing dailies or leveling as a healer will be anywhere near as efficient as doing it as a dps... especially if they are still trying idiotic non-solutions like "resto druids get thorns, so when you take damage you do damage as well".)

Third, why should we have to justify why it should be the way it has been since it was implemented? I realize you are taking your personal opinion and presenting it as objective fact in order to try and strengthen your position, but that doesn't actually mean that your opinion is fact.

Fourth, many people (myself included) have chosen classes based on the totality of their spec availability, rather than just a single spec, because World of Warcraft has not been a game which has encouraged you to stick to a single specialization for years. Even during TBC I regularly spec swapped while raiding, and that was before dual spec existed. The new cost carries an implied "you shouldn't really be doing this, but we'll let you if you pay us to do it", which is at best worthless.

Will the gold cost kill me? No. But it's another example of the "2 steps forward, 1d4 steps backward" style of content development I've been seeing from Legion so far. For every great, awesome thing I see, I see an implementation or system that looks completely idiotic.

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Your last paragraph doesn't make sense.

The point of his last paragraph is supposed to be "Gold should be a valuable reward for doing content. Players have so much that it's not considered so, but by introducing new gold costs that affect everyone, players will once again consider gold a valuable incentive for doing content".

Of course, he completely ignores the fact that there is a vast range of wealth wherein it really doesn't matter how much you have, and this gold sink is not sufficient to affect that range. Broadly, you have;

1) The "poor" players. People who have enough gold to do what they need, and that's about it. Maybe a few thousand gold (or less). They don't play much, or they regularly spend their gold, or whatever. These players will be severely hurt by the gold cost if they actually do spec swap.
2) The "rich" players. Players hit gold cap, sometimes multiple times over. Players that have enough material and liquid assets to do whatever they want. These players won't be touched.
3) The "middle" ground. Players who have gold totals in the tens or hundreds of thousands. These players don't have enough gold to get the high-end luxury items.... and the gold provided by quests won't get them there, so fails to provide an incentive. The gold cost on spec swapping might be noticable to these players, but probably not painful, and won't do much to change the situation.

In short, the only players this will hurt are players that are already short on gold... and they already had plenty of incentive to go get gold, if that was going to be an incentive. So trying to make gold something players care about again may be a worthwhile goal, but this isn't going to do it.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Saying that my argument is blizzard is right, you're wrong, when that wasn't my argument shows me that there is literally no point in arguing with you.

Thats all you've really said though. You've posted nothing of substance. You just keep repeating that we need gold sinks, but that THIS gold sink isn;t big... which makes it useless and arbitrary.

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The point of his last paragraph is supposed to be "Gold should be a valuable reward for doing content. Players have so much that it's not considered so, but by introducing new gold costs that affect everyone, players will once again consider gold a valuable incentive for doing content".

All of the other "gold sinks" are either a form of punishment or a convenience cost. Which one does spec switching fall into? Obviously punishment. Repair costs are a punishment for dying too much. Nothing more, nothing less. We see dying in PVP as bad. You lost. We see dying in PVE as bad. You failed your attempt. With flight paths, you're paying for a quicker route.

So what about spec switching? Its a punishment. Its not "an incentive...".... The former too gold sinks make sense. But this one does not. We should be wanting players to try new specs, new talents, etc. Instead we are giving a reason not to do it.

Repair costs and the cost of the taxi service are minimal compared to 62g a pop.

[gcsmith]

Thats all you've really said though. You've posted nothing of substance. You just keep repeating that we need gold sinks, but that THIS gold sink isn;t big... which makes it useless and arbitrary.

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All of the other "gold sinks" are either a form of punishment or a convenience cost. Which one does spec switching fall into? Obviously punishment. Repair costs are a punishment for dying too much. Nothing more, nothing less. We see dying in PVP as bad. You lost. We see dying in PVE as bad. You failed your attempt. With flight paths, you're paying for a quicker route.

So what about spec switching? Its a punishment. Its not "an incentive...".... The former too gold sinks make sense. But this one does not. We should be wanting players to try new specs, new talents, etc. Instead we are giving a reason not to do it.

Repair costs and the cost of the taxi service are minimal compared to 62g a pop.

Except, guess what, Taxi routes aren't always fastest, sometimes 310% speed mount is faster. And you still need to repair if you never die since you're gear gets damaged anyway, so clearly that's just punishing gameplay...

You also realize that unless you're an idiot, the only time you're going to be respeccing like crazy is inside raids with a guild. No pug group can expect you to do a role different than the one you joined for, and guilds should cover the gold cost.

"But I need to respec lots doing solo content..." why? You already said you need to dps for solo content, so stay dps and join groups through LFR or LFD as a healer/tank and then you get your spec change for free. The literal only way this system punishes players is a) they don't do content so never earn gold and B) they respec every 5 seconds out in the world for silly reasons. Especially since respeccing to your primary spec is free.

Lets not also forget that depending on how quickly you max up your artifact, you're going to be awful in offspecs anyway. By the time you have the first artifact maxed, you're likely only going to have raid gear thats gemmed/enchanted/weighted for your main spec. Also your artfiact will never be instantly at your mains level since you still need to earn more artifact power for the offspec ones, and if you're doing that before maxing your main, you're reducing your effectiveness in your main role compared to someone who isn't doing that.

Right now your only valid argument is they never used to charge for me to switch between 2 specs. Sure that change sucks, but for everyone who used all 3 specs or 4 in the case of druids, this is amazing since it saves them going back to cities. Arguments like "Gold costs are punishing" don't hold up, because it's not a punishment. It's a cost. Punishment is assuming that something negative is happening to you, but it isn't.

"Oh boy, the order hall talent for getting an extra legendary costs resources, why are you punishing me for having 2 legendaries drop blizz..."

Gold costs are good, because it makes gold a valuable currency. When a currency can't be spent on anything, it no longer serves a purpose. It's why for most people Apexis dailys were so damn awful, because it rewarded a currency that had no/little use to anyone. People who did LFR only didn't need/really want the gear, and it was useless for actual raiders. Had Apexis been necessary to buy level 100 books that allow you to change talents, more people would have been willing to do it since it would have actually be rewarding.

In other words, by having things that you use regularly cost gold, gold rewarding content becomes naturally more rewarding. Secondly, they've given people plenty of ways to avoid that cost if they can't play enough to earn it. Hence the lack of costs for LFD or LFR switching, because the players who focus on those queues in legion are probably players with less time. More dedicated players are more likely to be in Mythic+ or pugging regular raids due to how rewarding they are.

[Eapoe]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but original implementation would be counted as vanilla correct? If I remember, there was a cost associated with switching specs up until Wrath introduced dual specs, and even then it cost you. After you learned dual spec, it still cost a ramping gold cost if you wanted to play the 3rd spec for any reason. The Legion way seems to be going back to how it was in vanilla with technically giving you single spec gameplay again, but the option to switch it at any time, anywhere, for a gold cost. I can see how some players wouldn't like this, but as a mythic raider, I've only ever seen players swap specs for maybe 1-2 bosses a lockout, and even then it wasn't necessary. Assuming the gold cost resets every week, that's 2-4 swaps a week. Assuming further it caps at 62g a switch, that's paying 238g a week to swap. Now, that seems like a lot, but let's look at income. A gray vendor trash item in WoD is confirmed to have values around 110g a piece. 3 gray items covers this cost, and that's a GRAY item. Looking at gold from killed mobs, boss kills, and all other loot, you will more than clear the cost to swap specs, even if you spent 1000g a week to do so.
People are looking at cost without looking at earnings thru an xpac. The earned will greatly outweigh the cost of a spec swap.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Except, guess what, Taxi routes aren't always fastest, sometimes 310% speed mount is faster. And you still need to repair if you never die since you're gear gets damaged anyway, so clearly that's just punishing gameplay...

You also realize that unless you're an idiot, the only time you're going to be respeccing like crazy is inside raids with a guild. No pug group can expect you to do a role different than the one you joined for, and guilds should cover the gold cost.

"But I need to respec lots doing solo content..." why? You already said you need to dps for solo content, so stay dps and join groups through LFR or LFD as a healer/tank and then you get your spec change for free. The literal only way this system punishes players is a) they don't do content so never earn gold and B) they respec every 5 seconds out in the world for silly reasons. Especially since respeccing to your primary spec is free.

Lets not also forget that depending on how quickly you max up your artifact, you're going to be awful in offspecs anyway. By the time you have the first artifact maxed, you're likely only going to have raid gear thats gemmed/enchanted/weighted for your main spec. Also your artfiact will never be instantly at your mains level since you still need to earn more artifact power for the offspec ones, and if you're doing that before maxing your main, you're reducing your effectiveness in your main role compared to someone who isn't doing that.

Right now your only valid argument is they never used to charge for me to switch between 2 specs. Sure that change sucks, but for everyone who used all 3 specs or 4 in the case of druids, this is amazing since it saves them going back to cities. Arguments like "Gold costs are punishing" don't hold up, because it's not a punishment. It's a cost. Punishment is assuming that something negative is happening to you, but it isn't.

"Oh boy, the order hall talent for getting an extra legendary costs resources, why are you punishing me for having 2 legendaries drop blizz..."

Gold costs are good, because it makes gold a valuable currency. When a currency can't be spent on anything, it no longer serves a purpose. It's why for most people Apexis dailys were so damn awful, because it rewarded a currency that had no/little use to anyone. People who did LFR only didn't need/really want the gear, and it was useless for actual raiders. Had Apexis been necessary to buy level 100 books that allow you to change talents, more people would have been willing to do it since it would have actually be rewarding.

In other words, by having things that you use regularly cost gold, gold rewarding content becomes naturally more rewarding. Secondly, they've given people plenty of ways to avoid that cost if they can't play enough to earn it. Hence the lack of costs for LFD or LFR switching, because the players who focus on those queues in legion are probably players with less time. More dedicated players are more likely to be in Mythic+ or pugging regular raids due to how rewarding they are.

It doesn't matter why I want to respec. It shouldn't be punished. And specs are already arbitrary. You keep spouting contradiction and bullshit. If they money cost is so low, why have it? You keep saying that as if to sway someone that its really just chump change... but how does chump change keep specs as important or unique? The answer is they don't. Unless you're locked into a spec per character without a way to respec, then this change is an arbitrary one, without merit.

Artifacts have nothing to do with this subject.

And here is a real world application of what I'm talking about. My main during the first months of WoD was Warrior. Obviously for PVP I played arms. I liked tanking dungeons and raids, but other times I like to do Fury DPS. I also did dailies and world content as Fury. So thats all three specs. Under this change, I would be paying lots of gold to switch specs often. I would always be capped at 62G, or whatever they decide upon. And for what? Nothing, really. Because 62g isn't really that much, so its not an actual gold sink. Why should we be punishing people for switching specs? If anything, put "taxes" upon things that don't involve core gameplay. Sure, the taxi service, the AH. Garrison missions. But just using your toon? Thats like charging per button press, or per action bar. Its arbitrary and stupid, and serves no purpose.

A cost for a basic thing is a punishment. Its a deterrent, its a hindrance. I'm watching Star Trek DS9... and Quark goes to his home world to see his mother and while there, he is in a government office and just to submit paperwork he has to pay a fee, to sit down he has to pay a fee, to stand up, he has to pay a fee. These are all punishments for just being there. Being there, for a basic government service... you know, like switching specs?

And again, you're saying more contradictions. You keep saying its only a little gold but then turn around and say that its so people value gold more? That doesn't make sense.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but original implementation would be counted as vanilla correct? If I remember, there was a cost associated with switching specs up until Wrath introduced dual specs, and even then it cost you. After you learned dual spec, it still cost a ramping gold cost if you wanted to play the 3rd spec for any reason. The Legion way seems to be going back to how it was in vanilla with technically giving you single spec gameplay again, but the option to switch it at any time, anywhere, for a gold cost. I can see how some players wouldn't like this, but as a mythic raider, I've only ever seen players swap specs for maybe 1-2 bosses a lockout, and even then it wasn't necessary. Assuming the gold cost resets every week, that's 2-4 swaps a week. Assuming further it caps at 62g a switch, that's paying 238g a week to swap. Now, that seems like a lot, but let's look at income. A gray vendor trash item in WoD is confirmed to have values around 110g a piece. 3 gray items covers this cost, and that's a GRAY item. Looking at gold from killed mobs, boss kills, and all other loot, you will more than clear the cost to swap specs, even if you spent 1000g a week to do so.
People are looking at cost without looking at earnings thru an xpac. The earned will greatly outweigh the cost of a spec swap.

It doesn;t reset every week, though.

[Eapoe]

It doesn't matter why I want to respec. It shouldn't be punished. And specs are already arbitrary. You keep spouting contradiction and bullshit. If they money cost is so low, why have it? You keep saying that as if to sway someone that its really just chump change... but how does chump change keep specs as important or unique? The answer is they don't. Unless you're locked into a spec per character without a way to respec, then this change is an arbitrary one, without merit.

Artifacts have nothing to do with this subject.

And here is a real world application of what I'm talking about. My main during the first months of WoD was Warrior. Obviously for PVP I played arms. I liked tanking dungeons and raids, but other times I like to do Fury DPS. I also did dailies and world content as Fury. So thats all three specs. Under this change, I would be paying lots of gold to switch specs often. I would always be capped at 62G, or whatever they decide upon. And for what? Nothing, really. Because 62g isn't really that much, so its not an actual gold sink. Why should we be punishing people for switching specs? If anything, put "taxes" upon things that don't involve core gameplay. Sure, the taxi service, the AH. Garrison missions. But just using your toon? Thats like charging per button press, or per action bar. Its arbitrary and stupid, and serves no purpose.

A cost for a basic thing is a punishment. Its a deterrent, its a hindrance. I'm watching Star Trek DS9... and Quark goes to his home world to see his mother and while there, he is in a government office and just to submit paperwork he has to pay a fee, to sit down he has to pay a fee, to stand up, he has to pay a fee. These are all punishments for just being there. Being there, for a basic government service... you know, like switching specs?

And again, you're saying more contradictions. You keep saying its only a little gold but then turn around and say that its so people value gold more? That doesn't make sense.

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It doesn;t reset every week, though.

Alright, so no reset every week. There is a reset based on how often you do it then, and so far there is a max gold cap on switching. As for pointed out though, if it stays at 62g per max cap swap, 1 mob kill equals 2 swaps if you get a gray item on the kill.

[Juvencus]

And it was 100g not long ago, so who knows what it'll end up. But fine, let's say its 62 gold. Hell, I respec 10-20 times a day sometimes. So I should have to spend 1000g daily for something I already paid 1000g to unlock (dual spec)? This is a ridiculous change that will punish players who like to take on different roles.

The 'it's a free respec when you queue' is a terrible band-aid to self-inflicted wound.

Besides the fact that a big part of those "10-20 times a day" will be free, why are you respecing so much?

[Supercool]

We could always go back to the Vanilla style where you had to pay the full respec cost to swap a single talent.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

We could always go back to the Vanilla style where you had to pay the full respec cost to swap a single talent.

"We could be going even further backwards" isn't a good argument to make an negative QoL change.

[SoulSoBreezy]

Man, this thread =D

You choose a primary spec. There's a never a cost to switch *to* your primary spec.
Otherwise, speccing outside will be free the first time, then will cost:
17
34
51
68
68
68
68
This is current as of this post. Speccing back to my primary costs zero, and I'm not knowledgable about the cost reset.

As of this post, the cost for speccing back to my primary still costs zero, and speccing to something else costs 19g. The quoted post above was from 2 days ago.

[aethermachine]

If they stay with this model, do you guys think queue times will increase because of less spec swapping?

[SoulSoBreezy]

If they stay with this model, do you guys think queue times will increase because of less spec swapping?

No. The maximum gold needed to respec is a world quest away.

[Shadow Fox]

Not sure if anyone has posted it here in this thread (Really do not want to scan through 16 pages.)

Gold Cap is 78 Gold on the Beta. Starts at 15 Gold.
Respec cost is applied to Hunter Pets when switching between Tenacity, Ferocity, Cunning. They also capped at 78Gold, and are specific to each individual Pet, not shared. Also are NOT linked to the Player character.

Considering Hunters can get 50 Stable Pets, and hold 5 pets at a time. Should be rare for the need to switch Specs with a pet.


Prior to Legion, the gold cap for Respecs I want to say was 500 gold. Set in place some time after Classic when respecs did not have a gold cap, and could get insanely high for the gold reveneu of the time.

[shanthi]

If they stay with this model, do you guys think queue times will increase because of less spec swapping?

No, since queuing for a role you're not currently spec'd as gives you a free spec swap when you zone in. So there's absolutely no negative incentive to queuing as another spec.

[dudurududu]

Casual players will not care. It punishes hardcore or progression players though.

So a hardcore player has an issue with 50g respec? You must be a real smart boy.

Well, that pretty much guarantees that I'll never switch to heals for a quick dungeon.

GG Blizz, way to enforce longer queue times.

So you wont switch to heal for a quick dungeon even tho its FREE if you queue for it?


Holy shit looking at these comments I'm really loosing hope in WoW community.