Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[Kyanion]

you dont but blizzard do - there is just no place on market for the mmo models from 10-15 years ago - wildstar was the first big proof now balck desert is following its direction quite quickly - people who in the begning was hyped about grinds now leave the game because aparently girnds werent that much fun after all - people are not interested in hardcore gaming anymore - vanilla servers would be huge succes for 2-4 months and a ghosttown later die to people knowing all tactics and how to effectively grind stuff.

Well I mean games like BDO and Wildstar had far more issues than just the grind. BDO had no end game, forced PvP and brain dead AI among its many issues. Wildstar is well documented why it failed. Not saying that I think a pointless leveling grind in WoW is a great thing either though.

[Vineri]

you dont but blizzard do - there is just no place on market for the mmo models from 10-15 years ago - wildstar was the first big proof now balck desert is following its direction quite quickly - people who in the begning was hyped about grinds now leave the game because aparently girnds werent that much fun after all - people are not interested in hardcore gaming anymore - vanilla servers would be huge succes for 2-4 months and a ghosttown later die to people knowing all tactics and how to effectively grind stuff.

Grinds in an unfun game are not fun - we agree. (wildStar, yes!)

Your ghosttown scenario might work if Legacy private servers didn't already exist and have not exploded into such a topic that requires a 25k post thread (along with a 250k+ petition to support Legacy).

People ARE currently playing those "grindy" versions of WoW. Because there are other factors. The game was immersive, socially involving, and frankly, really fun.

You see, people ARE currently playing those old model from 10-15 years ago, even without Nostalrius. Blizzard should reign them in and make official Legacy servers. It's what a significant population want. It's what I want.

[Kyanion]

Grinds in an unfun game are not fun - we agree. (wildStar, yes!)

Your ghosttown scenario might work if Legacy private servers didn't already exist and have not exploded into such a topic that requires a 25k post thread (along with a 250k+ petition to support Legacy).

People ARE currently playing those "grindy" versions of WoW. Because there are other factors. The game was immersive, socially involving, and frankly, really fun.

You see, people ARE currently playing those old model from 10-15 years ago, even without Nostalrius. Blizzard should reign them in and make official Legacy servers. It's what a significant population want. It's what I want.

Maybe the population is not significant enough for Blizz to do it. Maybe they do not want to compromise their vision for the game moving forward and not going back into the past. Maybe they do not feel it is financially viable move for the company when they have other methods to make money such as Overwatch and Hearthstone.

I still think you overestimate just how 'significant' this population that want Legacy servers are or how long those people would even stick around to continue paying for it.

[brunnor]

Maybe the population is not significant enough for Blizz to do it. Maybe they do not want to compromise their vision for the game moving forward and not going back into the past. Maybe they do not feel it is financially viable move for the company when they have other methods to make money such as Overwatch and Hearthstone.

I still think you overestimate just how 'significant' this population that want Legacy servers are or how long those people would even stick around to continue paying for it.

The point is though, remember that WoD got up to 10 million subs. Now we are at around 3 million if you take the data from that other thread as viable. I think it's safe to say we are at no more than 5 million no matter what data you want to use. That means that WoD retained only 30-50% of its customer base. That is a terrible figure. If Blizzard is okay with that, ie keep making expansions, that kind of reasoning can't really work for a private server. Of course players will leave after the initial "fun" at the start of new game/xpac/anything, but there are always those who stay and carry on the bills.

e- And whats to say that we aren't underestimating? No one has solid data on who will play, who signed the petition, who even knows about this whole legacy discussion. It is possible that a huge population of gamers have no idea about this but will if it becomes something official. Using numbers for legacy server arguments is not a good way to go because it is all 100% speculation, even from Blizzard's end. No one knows how good/bad they will do, so claiming one way or the other is just bad for the argument at hand.

[Kyanion]

The point is though, remember that WoD got up to 10 million subs. Now we are at around 3 million if you take the data from that other thread as viable. I think it's safe to say we are at no more than 5 million no matter what data you want to use. That means that WoD retained only 30-50% of its customer base. That is a terrible figure. If Blizzard is okay with that, ie keep making expansions, that kind of reasoning can't really work for a private server. Of course players will leave after the initial "fun" at the start of new game/xpac/anything, but there are always those who stay and carry on the bills.

e- And whats to say that we aren't underestimating? No one has solid data on who will play, who signed the petition, who even knows about this whole legacy discussion. It is possible that a huge population of gamers have no idea about this but will if it becomes something official. Using numbers for legacy server arguments is not a good way to go because it is all 100% speculation, even from Blizzard's end. No one knows how good/bad they will do, so claiming one way or the other is just bad for the argument at hand.

That is just it, we don't have solid data. We don't know what type of data Blizz has or would even want. I mean I have no current reason to doubt their desire to keep the game moving forward with new expansions and new content. The lull during WoD was backbreaking for many people and if it happens again in Legion I expect the demand for Legacy servers or some other options to continue. Though if Legion is really good and has a lot of content to keep people entertained/busy that might do more than enough to silence the Legacy talk for a while.

[Vineri]

That is just it, we don't have solid data. We don't know what type of data Blizz has or would even want. I mean I have no current reason to doubt their desire to keep the game moving forward with new expansions and new content. The lull during WoD was backbreaking for many people and if it happens again in Legion I expect the demand for Legacy servers or some other options to continue. Though if Legion is really good and has a lot of content to keep people entertained/busy that might do more than enough to silence the Legacy talk for a while.

You can keep a straight face and say you don't have solid data. Kudo's to you, I suppose. You should play tournament Texas Hold Em.

[Kyanion]

You can keep a straight face and say you don't have solid data. Kudo's to you, I suppose. You should play tournament Texas Hold Em.

What are you even talking about?

[kamuimac]

What are you even talking about?

hes clearly one of those people who belive anything that is written on the web - in his mind if owners of nost written that they had X subs then ofc they did without any doubt whatsoever.

[Gavan]

hes clearly one of those people who belive anything that is written on the web - in his mind if owners of nost written that they had X subs then ofc they did without any doubt whatsoever.

Yea, I mean seriously, what company follows internet marketing data like petitions, surveys, and consumer interest. Seriously, why should you pay attention to any of that stuff. Just look at the extreme failures that Facebook and Google have been.... oh wait...........

[Kyanion]

Yea, I mean seriously, what company follows internet marketing data like petitions, surveys, and consumer interest. Seriously, why should you pay attention to any of that stuff. Just look at the extreme failures that Facebook and Google have been.... oh wait...........

Oh you mean blindly following an internet petition that can be signed by anyone multiple times with fake names? Consumer interest does not mean a whole lot if the company does not wish to make a product available. Sometimes companies don't put out a product some of the population wants, it happens all the time.

Just because YOU think these internet surveys from Kern, the 250k sig petition, youtube videos and so on mean there is enough consumer interest is irrelevant. YOU aren't the one making the call on those servers.

- - - Updated - - -

hes clearly one of those people who belive anything that is written on the web - in his mind if owners of nost written that they had X subs then ofc they did without any doubt whatsoever.

Right? I mean Nost was already willing to infringe on copyrights well knowing they could be shut down and possibly even sued. Yet we are supposed to believe their evidence and not call it in to question? People that have an agenda and willing to break laws...nahhhh there is no way they'd fudge some numbers on their server!

[Santoryu]

The meeting has officially been scheduled: http://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=44150

[Jeniwyn]

The meeting has officially been scheduled: http://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=44150

Cool. So early to mid June we can expect an update on how the meeting went. Splendid.

[Pann]

Right? I mean Nost was already willing to infringe on copyrights well knowing they could be shut down and possibly even sued. Yet we are supposed to believe their evidence and not call it in to question? People that have an agenda and willing to break laws...nahhhh there is no way they'd fudge some numbers on their server!

Wouldn't the potential penalties be reason for them to under report their numbers? I mean if they're going to lie about them why would they tell a lie that could see the damages awarded against them increase?

- - - Updated - - -

Cool. So early to mid June we can expect an update on how the meeting went. Splendid.

I wouldn't hold out hope for much more than we had a very productive meeting.

[Deleted]

Oh you mean blindly following an internet petition that can be signed by anyone multiple times with fake names? Consumer interest does not mean a whole lot if the company does not wish to make a product available. Sometimes companies don't put out a product some of the population wants, it happens all the time.

Just because YOU think these internet surveys from Kern, the 250k sig petition, youtube videos and so on mean there is enough consumer interest is irrelevant. YOU aren't the one making the call on those servers.

- - - Updated - - -



Right? I mean Nost was already willing to infringe on copyrights well knowing they could be shut down and possibly even sued. Yet we are supposed to believe their evidence and not call it in to question? People that have an agenda and willing to break laws...nahhhh there is no way they'd fudge some numbers on their server!

Please, go outside, breath some fresh air and then read your text again. Everything is irrelevant but your opinion? Nost was willed to infringe on copyrights because they wanted to show that the demand exists, and if the demand wasn´t that big then blizzard would just have let the server live, like they do with every other private server out there. Nost got shutdown because it became way too big, even many former retail streamers stopped streaming because they werent allowed to stream nost wow but didn´t want to play retail (and continued playing nost, like soda and kungen). Everyone who played there (and yep, i played there too) can confirm that the project was successfull/populated as fuck and it wasn´t just nostalgia that made it a great experience.

[McNeil]

Red Wedding 2.0 incoming? I could imagine Mike going full Walder Frey mode

[RickJamesLich]

Please, go outside, breath some fresh air and then read your text again. Everything is irrelevant but your opinion? Nost was willed to infringe on copyrights because they wanted to show that the demand exists, and if the demand wasn´t that big then blizzard would just have let the server live, like they do with every other private server out there. Nost got shutdown because it became way too big, even many former retail streamers stopped streaming because they werent allowed to stream nost wow but didn´t want to play retail (and continued playing nost, like soda and kungen). Everyone who played there (and yep, i played there too) can confirm that the project was successfull/populated as fuck and it wasn´t just nostalgia that made it a great experience.

This. Honestly for people that never played vanilla or nostalrius, I can sort of understand why they may doubt the popularity but Nost was quickly becoming a problem for blizz. The server had a community and world pvp on a level that I didn't even know was possible myself lol, and I played since launch. Despite risking get your stream banned, twitch users would still post Nostalrius, people would still mention it here on the forums as well as the official forums, not because of Nostalgia, but because it was much better than retail and and the people playing on retail deserved to know.

I don't really believe the Nostalgia argument anyways, because I knew a ton of guys who never even played vanilla back in the day that were saying Nost was way better than retail.

[Gadzooks]

The point is though, remember that WoD got up to 10 million subs. Now we are at around 3 million if you take the data from that other thread as viable. I think it's safe to say we are at no more than 5 million no matter what data you want to use. That means that WoD retained only 30-50% of its customer base. That is a terrible figure. If Blizzard is okay with that, ie keep making expansions, that kind of reasoning can't really work for a private server. Of course players will leave after the initial "fun" at the start of new game/xpac/anything, but there are always those who stay and carry on the bills..

Blizzard, or Ion specifically, has said several times now that they're fine with people playing a while, then unsubbing. There seems to have been a paradigm shift internally, that they moved away from "Play every day 365/30/7/24" to "Play however much you want."

Keep in mind, they don't need 10 million subbing for two years to be successful. If their expectations are to sell a ton of expansion packs, and then have a sub curve that's high for a few months then drops over time, then they can still be profitable, and make enough monthly to maintain the servers. $50 x 10 million? That's serious cash. That's "investors are very happy" cash. (That's why they wanted them yearly, most likely.) Since they have other games bringing in significant income now, they can probably withstand a period of low subs a lot easier than they could when WoW paid for everything there. Hearthstone, HOTS and Overwatch will prop things up in the low sub periods, like right now. Just look at their financials last year - thats pretty much what happened. WOD box sales applied to 2014 - last year, Hearthstone was bringing home the bacon. It's why they diversified in the first place - they have a steady income flow from multiple franchises, with occasional windfalls from box sales and expansion sales. D3 is bringing in steady income, it's one of the top selling games - it's almost 4 years old, and has sold 30 million copies last time numbers were released.

The TL;DR here is that Blizzard most likely doesn't need subs year around on WoW to be profitable, as their other platforms are profiting nicely. They're doing great, as a company. They're most likely going to treat it like all of their games - they expect a lot of attention and gameplay when new content is released, and as long as the put out regular updates or new games, they're fine.

I fully expect Legion to get 7-9 million sales the first week, easily. It could go higher. It's "return to form" just enough, they're going to get a lot of people back, for a while. And it doesn't matter if they unsub a couple of months later - they'll make enough on box sales and subs to keep going towards the next expansion.

Now, as far as legacy servers, the only way to profit like this, is to get millions to buy a standalone product, or buy an expansion to access legacy servers (which as of today still are not happening). Sell 10 million expansions...maybe they can work a budget. Most likely not. Most of that will be required for the next expansion - legacy servers is a new cost, and it's substantial, regardless of those who keep bellowing it's not.

A business plan needs plausible data. There is no plausible data for legacy server interest, and it's a gamble either way - and a multi-million dollar gamble, that they don't want to take. It's easy to spend their money, when you don't work there and have no real risk in the race, but pretty smart people do, and they've looked at it, and said "Nope". (and if you're going to post "Where did they say "Nope", you have to provide PROOOOOFFFFFFSSSSSS! - don't bother, I'm not playing that game.)

[Kyanion]

Please, go outside, breath some fresh air and then read your text again. Everything is irrelevant but your opinion? Nost was willed to infringe on copyrights because they wanted to show that the demand exists, and if the demand wasn´t that big then blizzard would just have let the server live, like they do with every other private server out there. Nost got shutdown because it became way too big, even many former retail streamers stopped streaming because they werent allowed to stream nost wow but didn´t want to play retail (and continued playing nost, like soda and kungen). Everyone who played there (and yep, i played there too) can confirm that the project was successfull/populated as fuck and it wasn´t just nostalgia that made it a great experience.

So if they wanted to show that the demand exists, wouldn't that mean they could willfully doctor the numbers of the people online? You are assuming they are saints for their willingness to provide something to the people. I see people who were willfully breaking laws/copyright infringing and had something to gain by adding to the numbers.

[brunnor]

The TL;DR here is that Blizzard most likely doesn't need subs year around on WoW to be profitable, as their other platforms are profiting nicely. They're doing great, as a company. They're most likely going to treat it like all of their games - they expect a lot of attention and gameplay when new content is released, and as long as the put out regular updates or new games, they're fine.

Do they "need" it to be more popular? Of course not, but why wouldn't they want to make more money? Do company CEO's really need 8 figure salaries? Do NFL players need 20 mil a year? Do average people even need 15 bucks an hour? The answer is no to all of that, yet our whole civilization is based on getting more money to live in luxury. Blizzard saying that shouldn't just be an acceptance of defeat. They should try to get year round subs because why not, more money is good.

I do agree that there is no proof either way to make a statement about legacy servers, no data is known at all so we can only go off what we have seen on the forums and such. Is that accurate? Of course not, but it's the best thing we have to go on. We know that 250k people signed the petition. Of that 250k, I assume some was duplicates and people who don't really care but voted anyway. Discounting all of those, I'd say its a reasonable guess to say 100k people probably want the legacy from that petition. 100k people paying 15 bucks a month can cover server costs pretty damn quick.

As an Activision stock holder, I want them to do this. I don't see a down side from my financial end. Yes, it isn't a huge ton of stock, but it's a decent amount that I'd like to see go up more. The CoD trailer thing is already iffy as it is, so it would be nice to have something I know that is going to make a good chunk of cash in the pipeline. It's been doing really well lately and I'd like it to keep that up, just hope the CoD thing doesn't screw with it.

[SoBBeN1]

Do they "need" it to be more popular? Of course not, but why wouldn't they want to make more money? Do company CEO's really need 8 figure salaries? Do NFL players need 20 mil a year? Do average people even need 15 bucks an hour? The answer is no to all of that, yet our whole civilization is based on getting more money to live in luxury. Blizzard saying that shouldn't just be an acceptance of defeat. They should try to get year round subs because why not, more money is good.

I do agree that there is no proof either way to make a statement about legacy servers, no data is known at all so we can only go off what we have seen on the forums and such. Is that accurate? Of course not, but it's the best thing we have to go on. We know that 250k people signed the petition. Of that 250k, I assume some was duplicates and people who don't really care but voted anyway. Discounting all of those, I'd say its a reasonable guess to say 100k people probably want the legacy from that petition. 100k people paying 15 bucks a month can cover server costs pretty damn quick.

As an Activision stock holder, I want them to do this. I don't see a down side from my financial end. Yes, it isn't a huge ton of stock, but it's a decent amount that I'd like to see go up more. The CoD trailer thing is already iffy as it is, so it would be nice to have something I know that is going to make a good chunk of cash in the pipeline. It's been doing really well lately and I'd like it to keep that up, just hope the CoD thing doesn't screw with it.

there also people like me who didn't sign but would play.