Upcoming talent change gutting

[deadman1]

its called progress when many people try to maximize their potential or be useful to raid by trying out different talents

You clearly didn't read the conversation and just jumped in.

She said switching talents every 15 seconds - 3 mins

I'm more than willing to speak to you, but please use context and inform yourself before koolaid manning yourself into a conversation.

[threads]

the fact people are stupid enough to think this is some great gameplay change blows my mind.

[losmarios]

For a raid the difference is litte, because you can drop a tome before every boss fight. It just might cost some more gold, but everyone can respec all talents.

[deadman1]

I think character autonomy is great in a game. I don't think it's related to talent systems though. Being able to swap back and forth is just not a talent system, that is just the really bad design of giving players every single talent there is with some weird UI hassle thrown in the mix.

Why though? You need to explain why you have an opinion.

It is an example of what is currently possible. And thus in some cases might be used that way, unless prevented.

It can be done, but I asked for a scenario where people actually used the system that frequently ... also why must it be prevented?

Just because that is the way it always was, doesn't mean it's good design.

I never said it was good because it's "how it's always been done" I said it's good design because it's good design.

People should question "existing" systems more often instead of just blindly accepting them, imo.

Are you kidding me ... THAT IS THE BASIS OF THIS THREAD You accuse me of shit talking fanboys, now you are accusing me of being a fanboy. Self awareness be damned.

Which is much better, because part of a talent system is: not being able to do all possible talent choices at all times.

You can't change during combat therefore you aren't doing all things at all times.

[l33t]

this especially will be hillarious - whole raid will be teleporting out and runing back after talent swaps after each boss - such immerion much fun

retarded change but shows perfeckly in what state beta is atm - everything is rushed and half assed in order to fit 6 months beta into 2,5 month. devs just clearly dont have balls to go to higher ups and tell then -product is not read to be released untill late december.

Wrong, that won't hurt raid groups in a slightest. Furitrix will still have to change from aoe to st talents and vice versa in a raid environment because killing trash faster worth wasting money on scribe's items which alow rerolls, and guilds would be very much able to place that reroll scribe items before every trash pack, if needed. Only players who are fucked by this change are solo players. Went to farm old raid and forgot to use your movement increase talent? Teleport back, change talent, go back to old raid location again. Doing quests in a world and see a jumping puzzle which requires you to use your movement increase talent? Go back to rest zone, change talent and run back. Want to test talents? Be sure to not go far away from a rest zone, otherwise you won't be able to change them! Etc, etc.

[Coils]

I'm all for this. I think it makes my choices more impactful in the short term when in non-group content, which will reinforce identity a bit. In group content, I will have constant access to a tome and will not notice. Nice to see some RPG elements brought back.

[JunkHead]

I'm sure someone has mentioned this before, but I just woke up so I haven't read this thread, but why not just use the items we curently have in game now for switching talents/glyphs? The dust and tomes or whatever. Make THOSE the reagant required for spec changing. Vendors can sell them just like nowm including mammoths and yaks. And just bump up the price to 5g or 10g each. (Less for the dust since it's for lower level characters.) Hell this makes a ton more sense that this shit Blizz is coming up with.

[Wondercrab]

This seems to run into the exact same problems as the spec swapping cost did, and it makes me wonder whether the devs are super aware of the basic gameplay psychology their design choices are reinforcing.

If there has to be a system like this, I don't see the problem of requiring a reagent to swap talents similar to what we have now, just to add that little bit of psychological resistance against changing talents willy-nilly, without actually being restrictive or impacting people's ability to play. That being said, I've always felt like restrictions on spec/talent swapping in the name of creating class identity are the most artificial and arbitrary way of achieving that goal. Yeah sure, a tiny subset of people are always going to pick whatever's optimal for every situation, but you know what the majority of players are going to do? They'll play with whatever they like the most. That's what creates spec and class identity -- an attachment to a specific playstyle, not an artificial hurdle you have to jump if you want to change things around.

That being said, this is still much better than the spec swapping cost.

[deadman1]

Wrong, that won't hurt raid groups in a slightest. Furitrix will still have to change from aoe to st talents and vice versa in a raid environment because killing trash faster worth wasting money on scribe's items which alow rerolls, and guilds would be very much able to place that reroll scribe items before every trash pack, if needed. Only players who are fucked by this change are solo players. Went to farm old raid and forgot to use your movement increase talent? Teleport back, change talent, go back to old raid location again. Doing quests in a world and see a jumping puzzle which requires you to use your movement increase talent? Go back to rest zone, change talent and run back. Want to test talents? Be sure to not go far away from a rest zone, otherwise you won't be able to change them! Etc, etc.

And casual dungeon goers, aka everyone except progression raiders, which is ironic because it seems that the intent of the system is to fuck with progression raiders.

[Flurryfang]

The gold cost only existed when switching specs, not when you swapped talents as it was free with no reagent or gold needed.

Ohh sorry about that

[deadman1]

I'm sure someone has mentioned this before, but I just woke up so I haven't read this thread, but why not just use the items we curently have in game now for switching talents/glyphs? The dust and tomes or whatever. Make THOSE the reagant required for spec changing. Vendors can sell them just like nowm including mammoths and yaks. And just bump up the price to 5g or 10g each. (Less for the dust since it's for lower level characters.) Hell this makes a ton more sense that this shit Blizz is coming up with.

Because this is more progressive

/s

[Deleted]

this especially will be hillarious - whole raid will be teleporting out and runing back after talent swaps after each boss - such immerion much fun

retarded change but shows perfeckly in what state beta is atm - everything is rushed and half assed in order to fit 6 months beta into 2,5 month. devs just clearly dont have balls to go to higher ups and tell then -product is not read to be released untill late december.

Orrrr... you know... one person will put up the respec tome before pull or at the start of a dungeon run, same way you put up a feast? Shocking suggestion, I know.

The only thing that's truly "retarded" here are all the whiners: "OMG I'LL HAVE TO THINK ABOUT WHEN TO CHANGE MY TALENTS AND MAYBE EVEN USE A REAGENT FOR IT!!!! GAME IS RUINED, UNPLAYABLE, OH THE HUMANITY!!!".

I'd go and see how many of you "contributed" to one of the 100 Nost shit threads with whines about how current WoW is too ez, too streamlined, has not enough RPG elements and all of it was SO MUCH BETTER in the beautiful and great times of vanilla when you had reagents, arrows, soul shards, pet food, poisons, vanishing powder, fire stones etc... but I cba and I suspect we all know the answer.

In before the talent change item having a favorable mats/skillup rate, all scribes leveling with it, guild banks full of this shit. I'm sure we'll get at least a whine thead or two out of that down the line.

[Flurryfang]

So it's okay to inconvenience 99% of the players because "high end guilds have money"

lol get back to me when you have a point.

Its okay to inconvenience 90% of the players, since it is only a high end raiding problem. Simple as that. Take a poll and see how few people actually change talents/specs on a regular basis in raids.

[McFuu]

I don't really have an issue with this. We get access to all 3 builds without having to respec a build to play our 3rd tree now. And there is a cost attributed to changing out specs mid dungeon. This also helps Inscription because they frankly have nothing to sell anymore.

[deadman1]

That being said, this is still much better than the spec swapping cost.

Is it? It cost x ammount of gold to switch specs before.

Now it cost expensive item/heartstone, just to change talents. Not respeccing, individual talent changes require a reagent or a rest area.

- - - Updated - - -

Its okay to inconvenience 90% of the players, since it is only a high end raiding problem. Simple as that. Take a poll and see how few people actually change talents/specs on a regular basis in raids.

You are forgetting about pvpers, questing, dungeons etc etc etc.

- - - Updated - - -

Because talent choices usually involve much more meaningful choices. Choices that can change the gameplay of your character drastically over a prolonged period of time. And the more prolonged this time is the more sense of character identity people will have again and the more meaningful and 'powerful' or 'game changing' a talent choice will become.

It's pretty straightforward to me why it's bad talent system design when you can change on the fly between every mob, or rather in a very short interval of time. At that point you should just give people all talents as baseline abilities instead, because a talent system usually means:

A. How will I 'build' my character for the longterm?
B. What gameplay do I prefer for the longterm?

That is just what talent systems are. They should be impactful.

But going to dalaran to change then undermines that impact and just actually makes it inconvenient instead of impactful.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't really have an issue with this. We get access to all 3 builds without having to respec a build to play our 3rd tree now. And there is a cost attributed to changing out specs mid dungeon. This also helps Inscription because they frankly have nothing to sell anymore.

No it's not a cost applied to switching specs, it's a cost applied to switching TALENTS.

[aethermachine]

This is a good change, otherwise what is the point in having talents choices at all if you can freely swap them out at any time. Its not a meaningful choice if you can just swap talents every mob pack or boss, if so what's the point in basically having to press an extra button to select them, they aren't talents at this point it's an extra spell book with abilities you can swap out on a whim.

We can swap specs, there is no purpose in having instant talent swapping, makes your limited choices even more insignificant.

[SDMF]

I'm sure someone has mentioned this before, but I just woke up so I haven't read this thread, but why not just use the items we curently have in game now for switching talents/glyphs? The dust and tomes or whatever. Make THOSE the reagant required for spec changing. Vendors can sell them just like nowm including mammoths and yaks. And just bump up the price to 5g or 10g each. (Less for the dust since it's for lower level characters.) Hell this makes a ton more sense that this shit Blizz is coming up with.

Reading between the lines, the price isn't the issue. They want to discourage players from switching talents to make your choices "meaningful".

[deadman1]

This is a good change, otherwise what is the point in having talents choices at all if you can freely swap them out at any time. Its not a meaningful choice if you can just swap talents every mob pack or boss, if so what's the point in basically having to press an extra button to select them, they aren't talents at this point it's an extra spell book with abilities you can swap out on a whim.

You can still swap them out at any time that's the main point of the argument.

As long as you have a reagent or your HS is off CD you can change your talents. It's artificial, there isn't actually anything stopping anyone from switching talents every 2 seconds. It's just adding a layer of inconvenience.

[Apology]

I'm finding it harder and harder to believe that the majority of the posters on this website played during vanilla, regardless of what the polls say. We have to go back to somewhere that gives rested to change your talents (as in, the inn 30 seconds from literally anywhere you might be)...and suddenly the forums look like Real ID 2.0? Are you people for real? It's not like you need to be changing your talents every thirty seconds as it is, and even if you do need to run out between bosses in a raid context or whatever, how long is that going to take you, really? It's long overdue that we start sacrificing some QoL for some RPG/immersion flavours.

Stop being lazy fucking sods. This is as much a non-issue as no-flying is.

[Kalador]

You are forgetting about pvpers, questing, dungeons etc etc etc.

you can't change in pvp right know and pvp waiting area will probably be consider rested so you will be able to change in arena when you see enemy comp or while you wait for WsG or AB, for questing you will see rested area all the time and you can carry a few tome for safety if you feel like it, finally for dungeon you will probably have to make some choice witch is good (see challenge mode) and if you want to switch that badly you can have a tome or ask somone in the group for one.