[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Ulthane]

@Ulthane Seriously bro thanks for compiling everything. It seriously is a big help when trying to give feedback and by keeping everything that we all agreed on in one constant place we can have an easier time gathering our thoughts when discussing in the future/on the forums. Thanks for all of that effort, it's definitely a big help.

Not a problem, the thing im trying not to do but it looks like is: me making my own new thing. Which doesnt help, what im trying hard to do is take what you all are saying and lay it out what it could look like and how it would work. Id much rather present a paper that has the core elements of the game play that can be cherry picked properly to further give a mind's eye in which you guys can go into official feedback forums and its something ill keep doing.

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@Bolt66 The idea with Ashbringer above, would that feel better for you? @Nuin Took your Judgment mechanic to heart and doubled down on the buff portion.

[Snegovik]

Demon Hunters are king of Mobility. Their mastery(Havoc rather) basically increases their movement speed.

Their mastery but also their short cds, make them very very mobile class; however, they are very soft, they have 3 main defenses leach from meta, blur, and those orb procs (not sure how they called); some ppl on Beta complain that DHs are too soft, but atleast they are compensated by high mobility/high dmg.

So to me personally that design makes sense, unlike Ret's.

[Reghame]

Demon Hunters are king of Mobility. Their mastery(Havoc rather) basically increases their movement speed.

yea, its an interesting mastery. The only thing im worried about is that because its a new class it will have the potential of being too good while also being too mobile. either they end up like monks with super mobility but shit at everything like they did at the start, or they become stronger than DKs were at their release because they will have the stupid levels of damage and no escape from them either. its going to be a very tight balancing game for them.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Their mastery but also their short cds, make them very very mobile class; however, they are very soft, they have 3 main defenses leach from meta, blur, and those orb procs (not sure how they called); some ppl on Beta complain that DHs are too soft, but atleast they are compensated by high mobility/high dmg.

So to me personally that design makes sense, unlike Ret's.

I mean I don't think it's crazy for classes to have some mobility stuff especially melee. But if every class had the level of mobility Demon Hunters had, then I'd say that's overkill.


Forgot to add. Someone on the beta forums suggested Equality go to PVP instead of our regular talent tree. Thoughts?


I'm ok with that personally.

[Deleted]

From someone playing exclusively DH in the Beta atm(sorry to invade your thread) i can tell you that te mobility is indeed great but they have virtually no survivability. Any hard cc on them basicly means they are dead. In a situation against another melee character i dont really see them doing specificly well.

They have the CC/mobility/interrupts to be good at killing ranged people though.

Oh and yes their damage is very decent allthough not very bursty

[Reghame]

Their mastery but also their short cds, make them very very mobile class; however, they are very soft, they have 3 main defenses leach from meta, blur, and those orb procs (not sure how they called); some ppl on Beta complain that DHs are too soft, but atleast they are compensated by high mobility/high dmg.

So to me personally that design makes sense, unlike Ret's.

They are not really soft. its just now they are not incredibly broken like they were through all of alpha so they are actually feeling the burn from other DPSers now. The only class that makes them feel like a total bitch now is actually ret (lol love it! suck it demons!) your mobility wont mean shit if you cant do damage to me, and even if you do ill blow your ass out of the water and make your hard hitting spells worthless (stun is sameish CD as eye beam, which is most of their damage). only time i have a big issue with a DH now is if im completely out of all of my CDs, and ironically i can kite them sort of because of how good hand of hindrance is.

Ironically too, unholy DKs suffer a lot to ret as well since their pets are classified as undead and that means their pets are stuck on a 10 second stun every 30 seconds meaning a lot of their damage goes out the window.

Ret paladins are stomping all over classes which the light should technically whoop their ass, and i love it

[Snegovik]

I mean I don't think it's crazy for classes to have some mobility stuff especially melee. But if every class had the level of mobility Demon Hunters had, then I'd say that's overkill.


Forgot to add. Someone on the beta forums suggested Equality go to PVP instead of our regular talent tree. Thoughts?


I'm ok with that personally.

I think it is a decent idea, because lets face it, i think blizzard is almost pushing Rets to kill their teamates in pve environment for dps buff and then almost kill themselves to use Equality XD lol. Personally i do not pve, but i think it is a bit unhealthy to stand in fire and drop to 1% hp to maximize your dmg.

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They are not really soft. its just now they are not incredibly broken like they were through all of alpha so they are actually feeling the burn from other DPSers now. The only class that makes them feel like a total bitch now is actually ret (lol love it! suck it demons!) your mobility wont mean shit if you cant do damage to me, and even if you do ill blow your ass out of the water and make your hard hitting spells worthless (stun is sameish CD as eye beam, which is most of their damage). only time i have a big issue with a DH now is if im completely out of all of my CDs, and ironically i can kite them sort of because of how good hand of hindrance is.

Ironically too, unholy DKs suffer a lot to ret as well since their pets are classified as undead and that means their pets are stuck on a 10 second stun every 30 seconds meaning a lot of their damage goes out the window.

Ret paladins are stomping all over classes which the light should technically whoop their ass, and i love it

I still believe Ashes should stun DH in Meta form, but that just me. From what i have seen on streams Rogues/Fury wars/mages also do very well vs DHs.

[ruiizu]

yea, its an interesting mastery. The only thing im worried about is that because its a new class it will have the potential of being too good while also being too mobile. either they end up like monks with super mobility but shit at everything like they did at the start, or they become stronger than DKs were at their release because they will have the stupid levels of damage and no escape from them either. its going to be a very tight balancing game for them.

The only balance is being ultra squishy in that case. Like, Classic Mage/Rogue levels of squishy.

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But with fury spec, there usually no rage starvation and you can build up rage very fast. Also you can active Enrage on demand and your Raging blows extend/refresh duration of your enrage ability + fury insane mobility, which makes it for them much easier to deal dmg/stick to the target and unload right away.

That's not how Fury works. The only spell that costs Rage is Rampage, everything else generates it. Enrage is activated by casting Rampage, Raging Blow does not extend or refresh it, but it can be used with no CD during Enrage.

Point is, there is no limit to Fury. They've rebuilt the old model which is "the more damage you do, the more damage you do." Unfortunately without Heroic Strike, but yeah.

Ret has no exponent model for damage. Doing more damage is just that, doing more damage. It doesn't multiply itself. Imagine if casting Judgment activated free Templar's Verdicts, and Templar's Verdict reduced the CD of Judgment. That's basically the model Fury has going (not exactly, but the point stands).

[Ulthane]

@ruiizu that actually would be fun imo

[Snegovik]

That's not how Fury works. The only spell that costs Rage is Rampage, everything else generates it. Enrage is activated by casting Rampage, Raging Blow does not extend or refresh it, but it can be used with no CD during Enrage.

Point is, there is no limit to Fury. They've rebuilt the old model which is "the more damage you do, the more damage you do." Unfortunately without Heroic Strike, but yeah.

Ret has no exponent model for damage. Doing more damage is just that, doing more damage. It doesn't multiply itself. Imagine if casting Judgment activated free Templar's Verdicts, and Templar's Verdict reduced the CD of Judgment. That's basically the model Fury has going (not exactly, but the point stands).

Actually Raging blows do refresh Enrage time by 2 seconds ))) talent called "endless rage" but it is from PvP tree.

Yes, I agree that fury seems much more fluid and better designed as a dps spec (from what i hear on streams), as in regards to Ret i think all of us agreed the design of judgement or HP has to change in order make it viable.

[Deleted]

@Nuin Took your Judgment mechanic to heart and doubled down on the buff portion.

Well, the original idea actually was to kinda switch out our mastery - instead of using a gated window in which our spenders do more damage we'd have Judgment as a activation ability (through TV & DS) and burst cd - so the portion of "increasing spender damage" was erased in my suggestion. This would still gate our damage somewhat, but doesn't hinder us from using spenders like in Legion.

Aside from that, some ideas are pretty good and overall posts regarded to keep our suggestions together are great. One thing you however could (and should) do is to mention (best at the beginning) that all those ideas are not intended to be seen as a whole single build but as mostly independent ideas put together. Otherwise it would make Ret overkill imo, and some may just think you'll want Ret to be op. Just a little suggestion

[Snegovik]

Otherwise it would make Ret overkill imo, and some may just think you'll want Ret to be op. Just a little suggestion

Honestly, i think Blizzard owes us at least 6 month of being OP, since it has been 3 whole xpac of us being middle or absolute bottom of the pack. Besides, i can enjoy all the tears that would come from Mages/Wars/Locks/Droods/Rogs when Ret will be better than them for once mwuahahaha ';..;'

[Deleted]

Honestly, i think Blizzard owes us at least 6 month of being OP, since it has been 3 whole xpac of us being middle or absolute bottom of the pack. Besides, i can enjoy all the tears that would come from Mages/Wars/Locks/Droods/Rogs when Ret will be better than them for once mwuahahaha ';..;'

And here I thought they payed us upfront already with our glorious wotlk launch... Sarcasm aside blizz is a burned child when over tuning ret is a possibility after the shitstorm beginning wotlk. They are willingly under tuning us just at the chance we might have even just a small glimpse at being awesome. A good example was the initial cata mastery it had a chance to be an incredibly powerful with sufficient luck so they tuned us around that minuscule chance. Thinking about it they still do that to the day.

Now that we are not procc reliant (0 proccs) anymore they have to make sure that we won´t see a second wotlk. They can´t do that by changing procc chances for tuning they now do that by turning our mobility down so far that the chances for us to deal awesome dmg are just as low as a perfect procc chain.

That our defense is dispelledable is just as consequent as our dmg tuning. Starting wotlk we had a inpenetrable defense. They don´t want that for us since it cased an outcry back then therefore our defense has to be counterable.

That far I can understand the devs thinking when looking at all points separately but as soon as you look at it as a whole they should notice the flaw in making everything counterable. Back then it would have been sufficient to nerf ONE issue either making us a glass canon or a moving fortress. In legion we will be neither at best we can hope to become a shiny Sarlacc.

[Teleros]

And here I thought they payed us upfront already with our glorious wotlk launch... Sarcasm aside blizz is a burned child when over tuning ret is a possibility after the shitstorm beginning wotlk.

Quite possible. I admit to thinking the same way - must avoid the over-eager nerfbat after all.

That our defense is dispelledable is just as consequent as our dmg tuning. Starting wotlk we had a inpenetrable defense. They don´t want that for us since it cased an outcry back then therefore our defense has to be counterable.

L70+ Mass Dispel disagrees :P .

[Deleted]

I mean I don't think it's crazy for classes to have some mobility stuff especially melee. But if every class had the level of mobility Demon Hunters had, then I'd say that's overkill.


Forgot to add. Someone on the beta forums suggested Equality go to PVP instead of our regular talent tree. Thoughts?


I'm ok with that personally.

Yea please!! Would love to see that talent go the way of the Dinosaurs!

[Deleted]

L70+ Mass Dispel disagrees :P .

I could be wrong but I think Bubble was not disspellable atleast initially...

[Deleted]

I could be wrong but I think Bubble was not disspellable atleast initially...

It wasn't. It was changed an expansion later to do it. Then changed eventually again not to do it unless glyphed. Dunno how its working in legion.

[Teleros]

I could be wrong but I think Bubble was not disspellable atleast initially...

No it was always so, and in fact they made it specifically prioritise immunity effects first, since 2.0.1 in fact.

Edit: Some links from private servers, Wowpedia etc:

http://tbc.openwow.com/spell=32375
http://wow.gamepedia.com/index.php?t...4&oldid=430237

So yes, Mass Dispel was a problem for paladins since it first appeared in TBC.

= + =

It wasn't. It was changed an expansion later to do it. Then changed eventually again not to do it unless glyphed. Dunno how its working in legion.

It removes bubble by default in Legion, for all 3 priest specs.

[Ulthane]

Well, the original idea actually was to kinda switch out our mastery - instead of using a gated window in which our spenders do more damage we'd have Judgment as a activation ability (through TV & DS) and burst cd - so the portion of "increasing spender damage" was erased in my suggestion. This would still gate our damage somewhat, but doesn't hinder us from using spenders like in Legion.

Aside from that, some ideas are pretty good and overall posts regarded to keep our suggestions together are great. One thing you however could (and should) do is to mention (best at the beginning) that all those ideas are not intended to be seen as a whole single build but as mostly independent ideas put together. Otherwise it would make Ret overkill imo, and some may just think you'll want Ret to be op. Just a little suggestion

Yea you are right. Could be a tad more organized.

[Wrecktangle]

Ooooor we could have that be a seal!

I really wish they would try and make a functional seal system, like a bunch of different mini-cooldowns

@Ulthane Seal were removed since they havn´t been updated mechanically sicne they were implemented. The iteration I was referring to would have changed them to basically stances. Which in itself is not a bad thing as long as they have a significant impact on how you play.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...re-commenting)

My build touched on using seals as mini cooldown stances. I still am very fond of the idea even if the rest of the build is a bit too involved. BY themselves they weren't terribly interesting, but talents altered them quite well. I opted for only Light and Wisdom (as a damage dealing stance and a resource regen stance). Then in the talents section I brought some flavor in by bringing in Command, Martyr, & Justice variants. That to me is an excellent way to broach the seal system. If you're bored and have some time go ahead and give it a read and throw some feedback on it.