[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Well we are losing Pursuit of Justice which should be baseline honestly. Our Thematic counterpart(Death Knights) get something similar so why not us?

2. The clash of Judgment vs Holy Power and what happens when they get away with the Judgment debuff and you lost your dump window.

That to, made constant feedback about it.

[Teleros]

Our complete self-defese toolkit is fully dispellable

Not true - Eye for an Eye is fine.

:P

god fucking damnit reg.

I do wonder which classes he's referring to here. I mean, Unholy has DG + 15% speed + Wraith Walk + talents to latter, and that's without even looking at the PvP talents.

Just one example.

Constant denial of Ret having huge glaring weaknesses on every field be it PvP, Dragonslaying, talent synergy, mobility, Aoe, abilities' synergy, Greater gakking Blessings, Colossus Smash of Juggernaut Judgement, etc etc is indeed farce in it's own.
So I don't engage myself in it, unlike you.

No point in arguing over this. Just quietly collect the stats for Legion as its played. You know, the ones that'll show Ret under-represented in high end content. Again.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Not true - Eye for an Eye is fine.

:P
.

I recognise my failing and will be sure to correct it.

I do wonder which classes he's referring to here. I mean, Unholy has DG + 15% speed + Wraith Walk + talents to latter, and that's without even looking at the PvP talents.

Just one example.

no fething idea.

No point in arguing over this. Just quietly collect the stats for Legion as its played. You know, the ones that'll show Ret under-represented in high end content. Again.

quiet is for pussies.
bring the Storm.

[Taeldorian]

@Reghame @Storm the Sorrow I think everyone here is forgetting or just not mentioning we will have 2 other partners in 3s and 1 other partner in 2s. This will make a pretty big difference, if we grab a class to partner up with that has a bunch of stuns we can easily catch our target and do the damage we need to do. They could trinket, but then we could stun, or our partner could stun with whatever he has left. We can easily make 2s work as well as 3s, we just have to rely more on our partners to not be idiots which is fully acceptable because if you're pugging 2s or 3s you're probably not pushing as far as you could. I don't mind relying on my partner to be able to manage CCing and such so I can do the damage I need to.

That's not to say we don't have shit mobility alongside somewhat shit utility. They said our utility would balance out our terrible mobility but the only real thing that can be considered utility that we gained is SoV and that's dispellable. No, Reg, it doesn't matter how many people play dispel classes, you'll most likely always be against one because there are quite a few of them. So until we get decent utility, or at least a buff/undispel change on SoV I'll standby the fact we have shit mobility. Don't forget this affects PvE as well, I love holy it's extremely fun but I constantly have to chase the group because I don't have the speed boosts/mobility they do and I'm not going to ask them to slow down that's just pathetic and I shouldn't have to.

TLDR: PvP is not going to be as bad as everyone including myself is making it out to be. We will have a partner (or two) and we will have to rely on them a bit more which in my opinion is okay. I que up with the same guy I've qued with since I started playing, and I que with him in 3s as well so relying on my partner(s) isn't anything I'm against. Ret has never made it to Blizzcon in the pros iirc, and I doubt they ever will because Blizzard tends to submit to loud voices and people like to scream against the ret community for some reason. Holy has made it to Blizzcon though so at least we have one spec that we can count on, not that I wouldn't want ret being viable, I would, I just don't see it happening for some reason in any expac. It was extremely good in Wrath and was nerfed so hard in the following expac. In PvE having no mobility is really going to hurt even if our utility takes over. I can't stop chasing down my group due to how fast everyone else goes and how slow I go.

[Kelemar]

Mobility is, however, not only a PvP concern, but a PvE concern as well.

Imagine all the fights in WoD without LAotL, and only the base Pursuit of Justice passive +15% movement speed buff. Personally, if I didn't have LAotL, I would've quit raiding the moment I completed my first Highmaul raiding night. There is simply no fun in being so restricted movement wise, and on top of that, being the only melee with this restriction. It simply does not work in a current raiding environment. And even if it barely does, it is definitely not fun.

Come on Blizzard, throw us a bone here and give us Tirion's Leap (I know I've asked for this for a while now, sorry if it's bothersome to you). It would only make sense in my eyes, being able to perform the move our Highlord uses, with the very weapon he is "giving" us, to destroy Frostmourne.

Then, if you're at it, scrap that whole Judgment window crap and finally care to make the spec fun and fluid again.

[Morally Grey Storm]

@Reghame @Storm the Sorrow I think everyone here is forgetting or just not mentioning we will have 2 other partners in 3s and 1 other partner in 2s.

I don't.
And I constantly question you lot : to what extent should Ret rely on his team?
Because as it appears, we will rely and depend alot more than usual.
You even say that yourself.

TLDR: PvP is not going to be as bad as everyone including myself is making it out to be. We will have a partner (or two) and we will have to rely on them a bit more which in my opinion is okay.

No it's not.
As it stands, we'll have to build comp around Ret's weaknesses rather strengths.
I dont want no such gameplay nor need such a teammate.
I'll take a furywarrior please.
It's fail.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Mobility is, however, not only a PvP concern, but a PvE concern as well.

Imagine all the fights in WoD without LAotL, and only the base Pursuit of Justice passive +15% movement speed buff. Personally, if I didn't have LAotL, I would've quit raiding the moment I completed my first Highmaul raiding night. There is simply no fun in being so restricted movement wise, and on top of that, being the only melee with this restriction. It simply does not work in a current raiding environment. And even if it barely does, it is definitely not fun.

Come on Blizzard, throw us a bone here and give us Tirion's Leap (I know I've asked for this for a while now, sorry if it's bothersome to you). It would only make sense in my eyes, being able to perform the move our Highlord uses, with the very weapon he is "giving" us, to destroy Frostmourne.

Then, if you're at it, scrap that whole Judgment window crap and finally care to make the spec fun and fluid again.

I'd rather have Pursuit of Justice. I dunno I just like it more and I'm used to moving that fast. Tirion's Leap would be nice, as a talent anyways. You are right, it isn't just PVP. It's PVE and right now other classes are fairing better then others.

[Taeldorian]

I don't.
And I constantly question you lot : to what extent should Ret rely on his team?
Because as it appears, we will rely and depend alot more than usual.
You even say that yourself.


No it's not.
As it stands, we'll have to build comp around Ret's weaknesses rather strengths.
I dont want no such gameplay nor need such a teammate.
I'll take a furywarrior please.
It's fail.

I don't disagree, I think building a comp around Ret's weaknesses or any classes for that matter is annoying, but isn't that honestly what we've been doing since PvP has been around? God comps and such work so well together because those classes cancel each others weaknesses out and improve on each others strengths making the comp extremely good in most situations. Same with counter comps. I might be wrong here but I'm pretty sure that's what makes a comp "godly". Unfortunately ret has never really cancelled out another classes weakness, we've improved on our own through talents/glyphs which made us a weak selection in the past.

As for how much does ret have to rely on partners? Well, you say you don't have any so I'm assuming you pug in PvP (just an assumption, not sure) which would mean you have to rely/trust in your partner(s) to be able to cancel your weakness out which would be mobility. A lot of things factor into that though, like do you communicate through mumble/vent/discord or any communication thing? Have you played with the people you're pugging with before? If no to all of those than yeah as ret you'll have trouble for sure, if you have reliable partners that you communicate with and have played with before than you should be fine but there's probably going to be a few more comps that could work against ret for sure.

[Reghame]

Theres the total argument of "you say there fine but they are shit to me, so they must be shit! aka your argument is wrong so now im going to curse at you"

BTW love the whole
"Care to fight a frostmage on beta and then come here tell us your feelings?
How about Fecal durid? a DK maybe? Furrywarr? Monk? DH? Or maybe rouge? Hunter?" (exact quote)
i have, multiple times. duels, arena, BGs when they are ever open, LITERALLY BEEN FIGHTING THEM SINCE THEY WERE AVAILABLE AND SINCE IVE BEEN IN ALPHA! and i still find ret to be stronger. the ONLY TIME i felt weak was when DHs were completely broken as hell so everyone played them, or when prot paladins were overpowered as hell and thus everyone played them.
At no point in alpha have i EVER EVER felt or said here that i have no ability to fight any other class UNLESS their kit was literally broken. so its INCREDIBLY funny how you spout how i should "play against them" and see how i would feel. i can tell you its no issue and you still tell me something like this? what a joke.

[Deleted]

@Reghame
To be fair, DH aren't likely to kite a Ret around in Arena without assign talents properly for it, because they have no baseline slows and must talent into Glaive throw and Vengeful Retreat to actually be able to slow. Don't know it from the top of my head now, but I remember this talents to be rather weak in comparison to the other choices in their respective rows. DH clearly is mobility king, but this doesn't mean he excels in anti-mobility, which is exactly our weakness.

Against every other spec that has only the possibility of kiting integrated into their basic design we'll actually be worthless. I remember being kited even by good warriors back in BC if they wanted to do so. I was kited by Feral Druids back then too - both of them hadn't the slightest problems to do so if my Freedom was on cd. And exactly this WILL make a return in Legion if we don't get better mobility in the form of either stronger CDs or something like Emancipate. Can't you see this?
Arcane & Frost mages have this integrated as basics, Ferals can do it, Warriors can do it, DKs can do it - all it takes for them is a basic understanding of how PvP works, the will to do so and to force your Freedom from you by either easily playing you out or removing it. Once that's done there's nothing you can do, or would you suggest your team healer to remove a magic snare on you and risk being unable to remove a more harmful magic stun?

If said classes don't want you to be near them, they have ways to accomplish this even with HoH applied on them. They don't need to engage you, they just need to keep you away only so long. How can you kill what you can't reach if it really doesn't want you to reach it? And exactly this is what bothers us, this and being fresh meat in such a situation without reliable defense cds.
Can't you understand even a bit where we're coming from?

--- update ---

I don't mind relying on my partner to be able to manage CCing and such so I can do the damage I need to.

It's not about that you don't mind, it's about if your mate minds it. Why bring a liability that can't do something alone if you can get the damage and benefits upon it from another spec? PvP team compilation works the same as setting up a raid grp. What benefits brings a Ret atm in a Raid and would you take him instead of say a DK if the latter one can give you damage and more? Your input please.

To clarify where I'm coming from and why I do make such a scene: Not mentioning the crap other seasons were for Ret, in WoD I had to rely on good friends of mine after the initial nerf wave of Ret to even find people to play with me. As WoD season 2 came, even they abandoned me because they wanted to rank up and Ret was that weak. So I unsubbed my acc annoyed by yet another shit expansion Blizz did on Ret.
And that's exactly why this time I won't even touch my Ret. I've had enough on this. Can you imagine the feeling being abandoned even by your dear friends and actually even understand their reasoning clearly without being mad at them?
All just because simply your spec is shit?

[Morally Grey Storm]

I don't disagree, I think building a comp around Ret's weaknesses or any classes for that matter is annoying, but isn't that honestly what we've been doing since PvP has been around?

and you say you are okay with more of it come Legion?
You've got to draw the line in the sand.

comps work well because classes cancel each others weaknesses out and improve on each others strengths making the comp good in most situations. . Unfortunately ret has never really cancelled out another classes weakness, we've improved on our own through talents/glyphs which made us a weak selection in the past.

having said that, ask yourself if you would bother taking Ret into your comp or not.
Ofc, if its for shifts and giggles, then why the feth not?
But if youre going to push ratings?
Do I have to remind of RBG viability?

Ask yourself: Why pick Ret?

As for how much does ret have to rely on partners? Well, you say you don't have any so I'm assuming you pug in PvP (just an assumption, not sure) .

I did not say that.
I said I am not going to support anyone besides me, come Legion.
I will be the support of one - myself.
HoF is reserved for me and me only, no one else gets it under no circumcstances and you know why.
HoP maybe.
Such teamplay. Much support. Wow.

If no to all of those than yeah as ret you'll have trouble for sure

I will have no trouble, for sure - I PvPed as Ret through tBC.

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Theres the total argument of "you say there fine but they are shit to me, so they must be shit! aka your argument is wrong so now im going to curse at you"

god fucking damnit reg.

BTW love the whole
"Care to fight a frostmage on beta and then come here tell us your feelings?
How about Fecal durid? a DK maybe? Furrywarr? Monk? DH? Or maybe rouge? Hunter?" (exact quote)
i have, multiple times. duels, arena, BGs when they are ever open, LITERALLY BEEN FIGHTING THEM SINCE THEY WERE AVAILABLE AND SINCE IVE BEEN IN ALPHA! and i still find ret to be stronger.

I'm happy for your findings and feelings, but did you win any ?

At no point in alpha have i EVER EVER felt or said here that i have no ability to fight any other class UNLESS their kit was literally broken. so its INCREDIBLY funny how you spout how i should "play against them" and see how i would feel. i can tell you its no issue and you still tell me something like this? what a joke.

ability to fight is one thing, possibility of winning is another.
against mages you'll have none.
for granted.
great design.

[Reghame]

I don't disagree, I think building a comp around Ret's weaknesses or any classes for that matter is annoying, but isn't that honestly what we've been doing since PvP has been around? God comps and such work so well together because those classes cancel each others weaknesses out and improve on each others strengths making the comp extremely good in most situations. Same with counter comps. I might be wrong here but I'm pretty sure that's what makes a comp "godly". Unfortunately ret has never really cancelled out another classes weakness, we've improved on our own through talents/glyphs which made us a weak selection in the past.

As for how much does ret have to rely on partners? Well, you say you don't have any so I'm assuming you pug in PvP (just an assumption, not sure) which would mean you have to rely/trust in your partner(s) to be able to cancel your weakness out which would be mobility. A lot of things factor into that though, like do you communicate through mumble/vent/discord or any communication thing? Have you played with the people you're pugging with before? If no to all of those than yeah as ret you'll have trouble for sure, if you have reliable partners that you communicate with and have played with before than you should be fine but there's probably going to be a few more comps that could work against ret for sure.

agreed, arena is built around having comps that ACTUALLY WORK TOGETHER, not random slap pieces of random shitters and expect it to go completely fine. the only time that will work is when everyone literally does all the same shit and it then comes down to who has the bigger stick which is what we basically were in the past, except we didnt really have a big enough stick to do anything.
As for legion, ret feels less dependent compared to some specs i have tried in arenas as of late, only exception to this was a fury warrior which was almost the same as ret in terms of ability but were less capable (ironically) with dealing with ranged classes with roots. i think ret is actually overpowered ATM in terms of 3s arena because of the damage output in conjunction with how they survive ATM. its really hard to actually gage our weakness ATM because our strengths far outweigh the disadvantage (dont matter if you kite me, im doing 20% of your HP every judge and god forgive you should you be in melee range as an example)

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and yes storm, im currently winning a LOT Of my arena games, and a lot of my duels too, even against these OMG SO OP MAGES! Ret is strong stop crying about it

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BTW, you bring ret because of their increase damage output for the group, or utility, or healing, or their absolutely, no question about it, strong damage and burst. know what ret could bring before in warlords? anything a holy paladin could bring but with lesser damage than everyone else and being squishier than everyone else, something legion ret is not.

[Deleted]

(dont matter if you kite me, im doing 20% of your HP every judge and god forgive you should you be in melee range as an example)

You care to explain how exactly you do it then? I mean, assuming Judgment to have a cd of around 9 sec...this would mean you need 45 sec to drop them from 100 to 0, without counting any healing at all. In such a situation I'd try to stay the hell away from Ret for the next couple seconds, get myself patched up with heals from my healer and try to hold you away with snares (hit & run) while concentrating on either defending my healer or focus on your mate.

So, what do you do?

--- update ---

BTW, you bring ret because of their increase damage output for the group, or utility, or healing, or their absolutely, no question about it, strong damage and burst.

You mention utility. I guess you mean BoP and BoF, aswell as your greater blessings? So, if I slow you down the whole fight like I described above, how exactly do you support your mates with BoF if you need it yourself constantly? Assuming I'm a Shaman concentrating on keeping you at bay, so you can't bring your damage on my mates and only hit me with Judgment every 9 sec or so...what benefit are you to your team?

[Reghame]

nuin, i keep telling literally everyone this and i dont understand why it flies over EVERYONE FUCKING HEAD. no one can kite a ret forever, NOT A SINGLE FUCKING PERSON. you WILL get to them, and you will be stronger than them because they tried to kite you. the argument that has been flying around here is completely ludicurs because its all about how we no longer have something and thus must be shit for it. nuin, in warlords ret had EVERY fucking tool they could ever need for anything but guess what, their numbers were so trash because they had it all. THATS WHY YOU GOT REPLACED. not because you didnt have mobility, its because all your tools could not help you because you couldn't do anything with them. Ret has less tools now, but they also have the ability to do something with the tools they have now, and they do REALLY good at it.
This is just an entire circular argument on how we keep going back and forth on this subject. im honestly tired of fighting it because for all i care ret could and could not have mobility. it could have damage or be a support spec i dont care. all i care about is that people are saying something thats actually not true about the spec which can be a hell of a lot more hurtful.

[Morally Grey Storm]

dont matter if you kite me, im doing 20% of your HP every judge and god forgive you should you be in melee range as an example

don't matter if you kite me?
???
I am out of fucks to be given.

and yes storm, im currently winning a LOT Of my arena games, and a lot of my duels too, even against these OMG SO OP MAGES!

sure as sure
I will even assume it has nothing to do with how balanced current Equality is.

Ret is strong stop crying about it

Ret PvP Burst is strong.
Ret as a whole is weak, stop denying it.

BTW, you bring ret because of their increase damage output for the group

Gakking Blessings?)
Really?))
Are you that desperate?

or utility.

what utility?
HoP?
ooh you mean HoSanc? Which cuts into Ret's main weaknesses that is mobility even deeper?
Such utility.

or healing

what healing?

BTW, you bring ret because of their absolutely, no question about it, strong damage and burst.

you do realise strong damage and burst is a basic prerequisite for any spec to be even considered pvp-worthy and is nothing to brag about?
Not to mention Ret's damage come Legion is literally consists of burst, be it under Wings or during Judgement Smash:Colossus Judgement of Mastery of Design of Former Arms Mastery of Awesome(of Lothar's Might).

[Reghame]

You care to explain how exactly you do it then? I mean, assuming Judgment to have a cd of around 9 sec...this would mean you need 45 sec to drop them from 100 to 0, without counting any healing at all. In such a situation I'd try to stay the hell away from Ret for the next couple seconds, get myself patched up with heals from my healer and try to hold you away with snares (hit & run) while concentrating on either defending my healer or focus on your mate.

So, what do you do?

--- update ---
You mention utility. I guess you mean BoP and BoF, aswell as your greater blessings? So, if I slow you down the whole fight like I described above, how exactly do you support your mates with BoF if you need it yourself constantly? Assuming I'm a Shaman concentrating on keeping you at bay, so you can't bring your damage on my mates and only hit me with Judgment every 9 sec or so...what benefit are you to your team?

how will you keep me and my partners from you the entire match while also dealing massive damage to kill me? you wont is the correct response. This is not warlords/MoP pvp where a ret can chase you the whole fight while your turreting him down with instant spells which chunk down portions of his HP. Not only this but if thats the path you chose then guess what, your just buffing the entire teams damage output since vengeance aura gives EVERYONE ON MY TEAM 3% crit and holy damage per CC ability you use.
I dont think people understand this and ill keep reiterating it over and over again.
the pvp game and the game in general has changed, unless you have read over LITERALLY every change AND or is currently playing the current build, do you actually have any understanding of the game? no you dont.

nuin, what can a shaman do to keep me at bay all game while also not worrying about my team? whats ACTUALLY stopping me. whats killing me, whats killing my team while this is happening? whats my counter play?
ill say it again because apparently i love having to say the same thing over and over again. nothing. this is not world of frost mages where they can freeze you every 12 seconds and shatter your face off.
sorry for the rant but damn it man, im tired of this circular argument shit.

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oh and storm, you should really read up on our PVP talents, maybe then you will stop complaining about ret because most of them really do make ret in PVP do work, but not only that but actually excel.

EDIT: also done fighting this circular argument for the week, maybe for a while until next build perhaps. ill go back to letting this page fill up with worthless posts about how we need to redo ret from the ground up because well fuck blizzard right? that massive gaming corporation has no idea how to make this incredibly long lasting MMO game work. No they have clearly no idea and that we are so much smarter than them. ( no offense people who come up with the stuff, some of it is cool, but come on now, you know better than that.)

[Ulthane]

@Reghame Wait... Vengeance Aura affects the whole team and not just you?!?

[Morally Grey Storm]

Not only this but if thats the path you chose then guess what, your just buffing the entire teams damage output since vengeance aura gives EVERYONE ON MY TEAM 3% crit and holy damage per CC ability you use.

oh and storm, you should really read up on our PVP talents, maybe then you will stop complaining about ret because most of them really do make ret in PVP do work, but not only that but actually excel.

http://legion.wowhead.com/spell=210323/vengeance-aura

I delight in the irony.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

@Reghame Wait... Vengeance Aura affects the whole team and not just you?!?

Even if it does it's mostly crit that will be the most beneficial because not everyone deals holy damage(Vengeance Aura) so mostly Priests and Paladins will actually get the full benefit of this. The talent seems more beneficial in a BG scenario(If it affects the whole team that is) and less about Arena. Sure there will be benefits in Arena but not necessarily as much as a BG(Cause having 3+ more people with xtra crit chance especially Rogues and say Demon Hunters will be pretty buff).

I'd also wonder if it will get nerfed. PVP's track record with buffs and nerfs....aren't stellar.

[Chaosinciter]

Not only this but if thats the path you chose then guess what, your just buffing the entire teams damage output since vengeance aura gives EVERYONE ON MY TEAM 3% crit and holy damage per CC ability you use.

Vengeance Aura applies to only you, least according to the tooltip, if it's applying to your team, then that is a bug.