[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Morally Grey Storm]

EDIT: also done fighting this circular argument for the week, maybe for a while until next build perhaps. ill go back to letting this page fill up with worthless posts about how we need to redo ret from the ground up because well fuck blizzard right? ( no offense people who come up with the stuff, some of it is cool, but come on now, you know better than that.)

the High and Mighty is strong with this one.
Thank you for allowing us worthless worms to scrumble and grovel here until your next Descent oh our Lord Reghyme.

that massive gaming corporation has no idea how to make this incredibly long lasting MMO game work.

Apparently so.
See: Class halls ->Garrisons 2.0
No retalenting outside of Sanctuaries
Storytelling, lorebending, ability pruning, skillplay pruning, not knowing their own lore.

No they have clearly no idea and that we are so much smarter than them

Don't you enmesh yourself into "we".
You are on their side clearly.

[Deleted]

nuin, what can a shaman do to keep me at bay all game while also not worrying about my team? whats ACTUALLY stopping me. whats killing me, whats killing my team while this is happening? whats my counter play?
ill say it again because apparently i love having to say the same thing over and over again. nothing. this is not world of frost mages where they can freeze you every 12 seconds and shatter your face off.

Reghame, I'm feeling the same. I don't like argumenting every single time about this matter, but I do because of our past. And there are specs that actually CAN slow you instantly, without cd, without much cost to do so. I don't need to kill you, I just need to keep you away every time your team makes a try and blasts a CD. Once the majority of them are away, it's rather easy to kill you off.
If you don't believe me, look at Ele Shaman for example: I can slow you down without a cd from range instantly every time, I can purge your defenses without problem, if I got myself a Priest as healer even your bubble won't save you, as will your damage if I can negate it simply. If I can hold you away even without putting much damage on you, chances are high my healer won't be concerned by just your mate while we cross cc your healer and focus your mate.

Ret's choices regarding beneficial teammates the way I see it are cut short by just as dps MM Hunter, UH DK and maybe Frost Mage or (if you fancy YOLO Victory or Death style) Arms, and a healer that benefits your cc choices. That's pretty limited and mostly easy to counter.
Also, since when does Vengeance Aura buffs your mates? It should only buff you for CCs your mates are affected by.

Look, I don't want to clash with you every time. I just want you to acknowledge my legitimate concerns for the spec. I DO keep myself updated about changes regarding PvP, believe it or not, and albeit I don't had the chance to test for myself in Alpha from my experiences up till now in the game I can at least imagine some silver linings regarding such matters.
Regardless of this, one of my mates actually got a beta key and offered me to test around aswell. I'll have a look for myself and maybe we'll talk again about this matter then.

[Ulthane]

So going to consolidate what im seeing here and break it into the PvP and PvE bits.

PvE Issues
-Mobility, mechanics require movement, this is a problem. Everyone has stated this is a problem in PvE.
-Damage output, it seems people are having issues with our damage mechanics and how it flows in PvE and we are handicapped.
-Defensive, it seems we do not have the proper mitigation tools for heavy damage phases.
-Rotation, very clunky and counter intuitive.

PvE Fixes
-Consecration baseline
-Judgment reworked slightly
-Divine Steed baseline
-Crusader Strike no cd
-New type of Proc, probably to do with BoJ

PvP issues
-Apparently none from Reg here and a few other testers so why?

It's the Honor tree, the Honor talents are REALLY good. Lawbringer actually makes Judgment 100% uptime, there is actual more mobility in the tree via Unbound Freedom + Seal of Light is insane. Equality and Hammer of Reckoning together for massive burst? Looking at the PvP tree there are SO many damn tools. Personally I would be Lawbringer and Vengeance Aura. Though Equality, Hammer of Reckoning and Seraphim's Blessing are very good in conjunction to OP burst status. Hell Greater Blessings might actually be a boon here.

----

So whats the real issue? PvE right now. So I think all the bickering needs to go into the PvE bit, now granted do I think we are going to have PvP issues? Yes, pretty sure we will. Why? Our history. How will I find out for myself? If i get a damn beta test. But we can all see and agree the issues we are having that have us all frustrated is in PvE and how it will affect us in a raiding environment. We want to be viable in raids not trash. Clearly I guess PvP we are okay? But PvE is a different beast.

Think about it, PvP has the might of two trees together. PvE only has 1. This is a problem, i think this goes into they should have made the PvE and PvP trees isolated. Where you are in a BG your PvE tree is NOT active. This was a major misstep in their part because we need 100% PvE and PvP isolation.

Like all the things I have been saying, suggesting have been directly 100% PvE. PvP was never taken into consideration at all.

So it boils to two things
-Our abilities need work
-They need to fully segregate pve and pvp.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Regardless of this, one of my mates actually got a beta key and offered me to test around aswell. I'll have a look for myself and maybe we'll talk again about this matter then.

will be waiting your judgement then.
I am eager to be proven wrong honestly.
No sarcasm, I really do.

- - - Updated - - -

PvP issues
-Apparently none from Reg here and a few other testers so why?
there is actual more mobility in the tree via Unbound Freedom + Seal of Light is insane.

what are you talking about?
You do realise Seal of No Resource to Activate is shite and taking Unbound Freedom means you dont support your team via BoSanc and set up yourself for any FrostNova(which absolutely coincendentally has a 25 sec cd), any root or snare at all, any time you try to use these very powerfulest +20% runspeed for 6 seconds?

[Taeldorian]

@Storm the Sorrow My bad, didn't mean to insult you there. I wasn't trying to say you specifically will have trouble, I meant that as a generalization so ret's that don't have as much experience in the PvP scene will definitely have trouble. I already drew the line hence why I'm going holy instead of ret but every class relies on another in some way, rets unfortunately rely on their teammates a lot more than others. I basically drew the line when we didn't get good utility in return for having shit mobility like they said we would and until something changes with that I can't see myself playing ret in arena. By no means am I advocating that ret is in a great place, it's close (I say it's close because 1 or 2 decent fixes would help an unbelievable amount) but we aren't quite there yet.

@Nuin Agreed. My partner won't just leave me because I play a class that requires him to pay more attention and help me a bit more but that's just me and it' most likely because I've known him for years but having to rely too much on my teammates is what makes this bad. I don't mind having my teammates rely on me or having me rely on my teammates but there's definitely a line that needs to be drawn somewhere.

Just a quick disclaimer: I am in no way saying ret is good in PvP, it's the opposite. I'm also not saying that relying fully on your teammates is a good thing, as many posters have pointed out, a line needs to be drawn. In PvE mobility affects holy and ret in the most negative of ways, as holy I keep having to chase my team and I lag so far behind due to the shitty mobility we have and it's extremely frustrating. Asking my group to stop and slow down is pathetic and not something I should have to do. Having a full group of DH's absolutely blows, they cover 20 feet in 4-5 seconds while I cover at best 6-7. That's not fun in PvE especially when I'm healing. In PvP, holy is in a pretty good place. It's pretty fun and mobility as a healer isn't exactly required like it is for melee dps. That brings me to ret in PvP, it's not good. We have to rely far to much on our teammates, for some that might be an exciting thing and for others that might be disappointing. I know my mate loves having a lot of pressure on him so he'd be cool with it, but that's like .000000001% of the PvP player base, I know many who hate that.

TLDR: I'm not trying to advocate that ret is good but I do like relying on my teammates. Unfortunately, that was taken way to far and we have to rely on our teammates to set everything up for us so we can actually start dealing some damage. We were suppose to get utility to make up for the shit mobility we have but we never did which leads to more weaknesses than strengths. In PvE having practically no mobility is painful. It takes me a while to catch up to my entire team and sometimes I really just want to ask them to slow down because I have no way of catching up but I don't want to do that and I'd probably get kicked. We either need more mobility for PvE/PvP or more utility for PvE/PvP. Holy has plenty of utility in itself so I'm mainly aiming that statement at ret, but more mobility is necessary for all specs except prot atm.

Now, if that gets fixed, we'll be pretty damn good. The judgement mechanic allows us to line up some insane burst, but that's only if we can stun/snare people and catch up to them.

[Ulthane]

@Storm the Sorrow I get that, im just trying to make a point that the majority of our problems and issues are actually from the PvE side of things. I do agree with you and reg at the same time. I agree that he is probably shit stomping people left and right. But I also agree that once people learn they will train us for days.

[Morally Grey Storm]

@Storm the Sorrow My bad, didn't mean to insult you there.

None taken.
having grinded out Justicar and "of the Alliance" solely as Ret, I fear nothing.

[MENTION=941777] as a generalization so ret's that don't have as much experience in the PvP scene will definitely have trouble.

Which is not necessarily a bad thing.
There must be a learning curve.
A pass of sorts.
For all the players, specs and classes.
But some classes(on a constant basis not less) have it for granted,which is not healthy for the game.

I already drew the line hence why I'm going holy instead of ret but every class relies on another in some way, rets unfortunately rely on their teammates a lot more than others.

Well here's to hoping you enjoy being Holy, then.

I basically drew the line when we didn't get good utility in return for having shit mobility like they said we would and until something changes with that I can't see myself playing ret in arena.

Listen to reg.
He tells Ret is great.
Maybe you listen to me too much.
I'm a well-ill-known troll and naysayer.

By no means am I advocating that ret is in a great place, it's close (I say it's close because 1 or 2 decent fixes would help an unbelievable amount) but we aren't quite there yet.

See?
That's what slightly ticks me off the most: we are so close, fixes are easy and not unimaginable.
But we're not there.
And there is no guarantee we'll be.

In PvE having practically no mobility is painful. It takes me a while to catch up to my entire team and sometimes I really just want to ask them to slow down because I have no way of catching up but I don't want to do that and I'd probably get kicked. We either need more mobility for PvE/PvP or more utility for PvE/PvP.

having WoD PoJ baseline would go great length in improving gameplay quality in all aspects.
Ret could even get a slight personal utility along the lines of "cant be slowed below.." tucked onto it.
But it's already done for DK's so I guess we're late.

[Ulthane]

@Taeldorian you are on beta right? If so what is your take on pvp thus far?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

having WoD PoJ baseline would go great length in improving gameplay quality in all aspects.
Ret could even get a slight personal utility along the lines of "cant be slowed below.." tucked onto it.
But it's already done for DK's so I guess we're late.

I was thinking something similar. It would be a nice passive to have. It's not even OP either.

[Morally Grey Storm]

@Storm the Sorrow I get that, im just trying to make a point that the majority of our problems and issues are actually from the PvE side of things. I do agree with you and reg at the same time. I agree that he is probably shit stomping people left and right. But I also agree that once people learn they will train us for days.

this duality of yours ;D


But yeah, main problems stem from the basis.
If you have no solid foundation, you will fall.
Just like Colossus with feet of clay.

[Ulthane]

this duality of yours ;D


But yeah, main problems stem from the basis.
If you have no solid foundation, your colossus will fall.
See : Colossus of Rhodes.

This is true, interesting. Will look it up.

[Taeldorian]

None taken.
having grinded out Justicar and "of the Alliance" solely as Ret, I fear nothing.


Which is not necessarily a bad thing.
There must be a learning curve.
A pass of sorts.
For all the players, specs and classes.
But some classes(on a constant basis not less) have it for granted,which is not healthy for the game.


Well here's to hoping you enjoy being Holy, then.


Listen to reg.
He tells Ret is great.
Maybe you listen to me too much.
I'm a well-ill-known troll and naysayer.




See?
That's what slightly ticks me off the most: we are so close, fixes are easy and not unimaginable.
But we're not there.
And there is no guarantee we'll be.



having WoD PoJ baseline would go great length in improving gameplay quality in all aspects.
Ret could even get a slight personal utility along the lines of "cant be slowed below.." tucked onto it.
But it's already done for DK's so I guess we're late.

1. Impressive. I hope you put that on your resume, I would.

2. Yeah there definitely needs to be a learning curve for all classes but some classes will always have it easier than others which is both annoying and unhealthy for the game. Hunters being a 1-2-3-4 button class in Legion makes it easy and it does as much damage as I would if I were to put in effort on my ret or on a fury war or a mage etc.

3. Thanks, first time I've ever strayed away from ret in a long time, holy is definitely looking solid though and it's been really fun so far aside from me not being able to catch up to my team.

4. Lol, I like listening to everyone in here. Naysayer or not, feedback is feedback.

5. Yeah, we are so damn close to being finished, 1 or 2 decent fixes would get us there but as you already stated there's no guarantee that'll happen and since we've heard nothing from the devs about any of our main issues I'm getting more and more worried about it.

6. I love PoJ and that would definitely help a lot. I can tell you right now it would make no difference in a group with full Demon Hunters though, they cover so much ground in a short time frame it's ridiculous and there mastery increases there run speed so it can only get worse. I really hope groups with 3-4 demon hunters don't actually exist come live but if they do it's going to be really annoying. Still, I'd love PoJ back or at least a version of it, base run speed+increased run speed per holy power up to x amount was wonderful.

- - - Updated - - -

@Taeldorian you are on beta right? If so what is your take on pvp thus far?

Yessir.

As ret: Relying on your teammates is now a big part of how we function in PvP. We need to rely on our teammate(s) to set up the target we're aiming for so they don't have a chance of getting away when we attempt to burst them/actually deal damage. Some might like that, but it is a bit excessive. I like relying on my team and vice versa but it was taken a bit too far in terms of ret. As for the damage we deal, it's definitely good but it'll only be worth it if we can get to our target and that's when we have to rely on our teammates. Many people wouldn't want that kind of responsibility though when they can take a class that doesn't require them to set anything up or keeps it to a minimum. The devs said every class has it's strengths and weaknesses, our weakness is mobility and our strength is utility, but it turns out our weakness is mobility and our other weakness is utility. SoV needs to be undispellable or have it's damage increased and we need 1 or 2 more stuns/snares so we can help ourselves stick to our targets rather than rely on our teammates to make that possible.

As holy: I've had a good experience as holy. Mobility isn't as required for a healer as it is for a melee dps and holy has plenty more utility than ret does so it makes life easier. It's one of the most exciting and fun healing specs in my opinion and has amazing choices. For example if you are vsing a team that does a ton of ST burst damage you can spec to counter that. Same goes for a team that deals really good damage spread across the enemy team which would apply pressure, you can spec to counter that.

[ruiizu]

this duality of yours ;D


But yeah, main problems stem from the basis.
If you have no solid foundation, you will fall.
Just like Colossus with feet of clay.

This is my main problem. If I hit really hard, yeah, I can curb stomp any fool that isn't watching me ride behind him on my horse. But the moment he starts playing well, what can I really do? Without stuff like Charge, I'm at the mercy of his skill rather than my own.

I've had this problem with melee vs. range for a long time. If melee doesn't have the right tools to catch up with the ranged, then his ability to win is exclusively "does the ranged play well or not." It's not on you, because all you do is press W and attack when you're able to.

[Ulthane]

@Taeldorian so then the following PvE things that would affect PvP would be viable.

Defensive
-Shield of Vengeance: CD lowered to 30 seconds, increase in damage absorbed. Can't be dispelled.
--Deflection: Increase absorb.
-Sacred Shield: Return it and have it last 1 hour.
-Hand of Light: Return it.

Mobility
-Divine Steed: Baseline all specs
-Pursuit of Justice: Baseline Retribution

Utility
-Flash of Light: Instant cast?
--Selfless Healer: Maybe after one judgment its instant and heals for more if re introduced?

-Greater Blessings: Needs to be tuned better imo. We all know this. Perhaps these could become cooldowns that affect everyone, utility.
--Greater Might: Yourself and 4 near by allies have a chance to deal 30% more damage as holy damage for 15 seconds. 30 second cd.
--Greater Kings: Yourself and 4 near by allies gain an absorb for 15 seconds. 30 second cooldown.
--Greater Wisdom: Yourself and 4 near by allies regenerate 1% health and mana every 3 seconds for 15 seconds. 30 second cooldown.
-NOTE
--Can share CD if too op?

Not taking Judgment mechanic into play, how does this sound?

[Ciric-Wildhammer]

1. Impressive. I hope you put that on your resume, I would.

2. Yeah there definitely needs to be a learning curve for all classes but some classes will always have it easier than others which is both annoying and unhealthy for the game. Hunters being a 1-2-3-4 button class in Legion makes it easy and it does as much damage as I would if I were to put in effort on my ret or on a fury war or a mage etc.

3. Thanks, first time I've ever strayed away from ret in a long time, holy is definitely looking solid though and it's been really fun so far aside from me not being able to catch up to my team.

4. Lol, I like listening to everyone in here. Naysayer or not, feedback is feedback.

5. Yeah, we are so damn close to being finished, 1 or 2 decent fixes would get us there but as you already stated there's no guarantee that'll happen and since we've heard nothing from the devs about any of our main issues I'm getting more and more worried about it.

6. I love PoJ and that would definitely help a lot. I can tell you right now it would make no difference in a group with full Demon Hunters though, they cover so much ground in a short time frame it's ridiculous and there mastery increases there run speed so it can only get worse. I really hope groups with 3-4 demon hunters don't actually exist come live but if they do it's going to be really annoying. Still, I'd love PoJ back or at least a version of it, base run speed+increased run speed per holy power up to x amount was wonderful.

- - - Updated - - -



Yessir.

As ret: Relying on your teammates is now a big part of how we function in PvP. We need to rely on our teammate(s) to set up the target we're aiming for so they don't have a chance of getting away when we attempt to burst them/actually deal damage. Some might like that, but it is a bit excessive. I like relying on my team and vice versa but it was taken a bit too far in terms of ret. As for the damage we deal, it's definitely good but it'll only be worth it if we can get to our target and that's when we have to rely on our teammates. Many people wouldn't want that kind of responsibility though when they can take a class that doesn't require them to set anything up or keeps it to a minimum. The devs said every class has it's strengths and weaknesses, our weakness is mobility and our strength is utility, but it turns out our weakness is mobility and our other weakness is utility. SoV needs to be undispellable or have it's damage increased and we need 1 or 2 more stuns/snares so we can help ourselves stick to our targets rather than rely on our teammates to make that possible.

As holy: I've had a good experience as holy. Mobility isn't as required for a healer as it is for a melee dps and holy has plenty more utility than ret does so it makes life easier. It's one of the most exciting and fun healing specs in my opinion and has amazing choices. For example if you are vsing a team that does a ton of ST burst damage you can spec to counter that. Same goes for a team that deals really good damage spread across the enemy team which would apply pressure, you can spec to counter that.

I thought Ret was only good on beta because the dmg is over tuned and not balanced yet. I will wait for that feedback near the end of the tuning phase and some after season 1 like all expansions beforehand.

[Temna]

@Ulthane I always felt that the blessing should be retuned as Hand abilities, or maybe a new classification (Boon maybe but the jokes will right themselves on that one) What you have there is similar to what I would have done with em.

Hand of Wrath (prefer that name honestly): For the next 8 seconds, all damage done deals an additional 30% holy damage over 6 seconds. 1min cd
Hand of Kings: Shields target ally and yourself for x% of the paladin's max hp for 8 seconds, if only cast on self reduce cd by 15 seconds. 1min cd
Hand of Wisdom: Target's next 3 spell casts have no mana cost. 1 min cd

Those were my thoughts at least. Though Hand of Wisdom I think might still be kinda on the stronger side, concept and variability is kinda what I like about it (toss to healer to for 3 FoL's, or to the arcane mage to keep their tempo up)

[Taeldorian]

@Taeldorian so then the following PvE things that would affect PvP would be viable.

Defensive
-Shield of Vengeance: CD lowered to 30 seconds, increase in damage absorbed. Can't be dispelled.
--Deflection: Increase absorb.
-Sacred Shield: Return it and have it last 1 hour.
-Hand of Light: Return it.

Mobility
-Divine Steed: Baseline all specs
-Pursuit of Justice: Baseline Retribution

Utility
-Flash of Light: Instant cast?
--Selfless Healer: Maybe after one judgment its instant and heals for more if re introduced?

-Greater Blessings: Needs to be tuned better imo. We all know this. Perhaps these could become cooldowns that affect everyone, utility.
--Greater Might: Yourself and 4 near by allies have a chance to deal 30% more damage as holy damage for 15 seconds. 30 second cd.
--Greater Kings: Yourself and 4 near by allies gain an absorb for 15 seconds. 30 second cooldown.
--Greater Wisdom: Yourself and 4 near by allies regenerate 1% health and mana every 3 seconds for 15 seconds. 30 second cooldown.
-NOTE
--Can share CD if too op?

Not taking Judgment mechanic into play, how does this sound?

I personally like it, I'd love to see selfless healer make a return of some sort. It would definitely help to have instant flash of lights as well as stronger ones.

Any rework to the blessings system would honestly be good, nobody can make it worse than it is now in my opinion. They definitely won't return that many things though but if I could have my way id definitely take some of these ideas here. I have no idea why steed isn't baseline for holy/ret yet, it makes no sense. The talent should alter steed somehow not give us access to it.

[Ulthane]

@Ulthane I always felt that the blessing should be retuned as Hand abilities, or maybe a new classification (Boon maybe but the jokes will right themselves on that one) What you have there is similar to what I would have done with em.

Hand of Wrath (prefer that name honestly): For the next 8 seconds, all damage done deals an additional 30% holy damage over 6 seconds. 1min cd
Hand of Kings: Shields target ally and yourself for x% of the paladin's max hp for 8 seconds, if only cast on self reduce cd by 15 seconds. 1min cd
Hand of Wisdom: Target's next 3 spell casts have no mana cost. 1 min cd

Those were my thoughts at least. Though Hand of Wisdom I think might still be kinda on the stronger side, concept and variability is kinda what I like about it (toss to healer to for 3 FoL's, or to the arcane mage to keep their tempo up)

They can do tons more with the blessings thats for sure

- - - Updated - - -

I personally like it, I'd love to see selfless healer make a return of some sort. It would definitely help to have instant flash of lights as well as stronger ones.

Any rework to the blessings system would honestly be good, nobody can make it worse than it is now in my opinion. They definitely won't return that many things though but if I could have my way id definitely take some of these ideas here. I have no idea why steed isn't baseline for holy/ret yet, it makes no sense. The talent should alter steed somehow not give us access to it.

Yea, also i put Hand of Light and Sacred Shield here because Wisdom and Kings couldnt be put on self.

Regardless most of these are actually minor changes all things considering.

[Teleros]

I think everyone here is forgetting or just not mentioning we will have 2 other partners in 3s and 1 other partner in 2s.

Nope; this is the age-old dilemma for Ret paladins: you need to rely an awful lot on your partners to make up for missing stuff... but a lot (most? all?) of other classes & specs don't have this weakness, or at least not to the same extent as Ret.

Consider the classic RMP combo of ages past. The reason it was so powerful was because the three classes complemented one another exceptionally well, and what weaknesses each had was covered by the others.

Why wasn't Ret ever in a well-known comp like RMP? Because it had too many or too strong weaknesses (or both).

TLDR: PvP is not going to be as bad as everyone including myself is making it out to be.

I am sure there will be a handful of viable comps for Ret paladins; however I will be extremely surprised if:

-Ret is not extremely under-represented in high-end rated BGs.
-Ret is not under-represented in all arena types at the high end.
-People do not QQ over Ret being OP in casual or low-rated PvP (ohai Equality).
-Ret is not nerfed due to the above (again, ohai Equality, and maybe SW & DP proc chains too).

I don't disagree, I think building a comp around Ret's weaknesses or any classes for that matter is annoying, but isn't that honestly what we've been doing since PvP has been around?

I think it will be worse for Ret than it has been since... well for quite a while TBH.

God comps and such work so well together because those classes cancel each others weaknesses out and improve on each others strengths making the comp extremely good in most situations. Same with counter comps. I might be wrong here but I'm pretty sure that's what makes a comp "godly". Unfortunately ret has never really cancelled out another classes weakness, we've improved on our own through talents/glyphs which made us a weak selection in the past.

Again, consider the old RMP comp, and compare the weaknesses of Frost mages to those of Rets. Doesn't really compare.

there's probably going to be a few more comps that could work against ret for sure.

Anything with offensive dispels will shut down Ret's survival and team utility pretty easily so long as the players are on the ball. Ranged DPS will find it much easier to negate Shield of Vengeance and Equality too, simply by being out of range.

The trouble is that Ret is possibly one of the easiest specs to counter.

• Ret lights up with wings = CC / kite time
• Ret uses team utility = offensive dispel (or ignore because it's anti-physical only)
• Ret uses defensive = offensive dispel
• Ret heals = interrupt
• Ret has SoV / Equality = stay 9+ / 11+ yards away

Meh.

= + =

There is simply no fun in being so restricted movement wise, and on top of that, being the only melee with this restriction.

For what it's worth, Frost DKs have only their Wraith Walk sprint, so they're in a similar boat to us.

= + =

nuin, i keep telling literally everyone this and i dont understand why it flies over EVERYONE FUCKING HEAD. no one can kite a ret forever, NOT A SINGLE FUCKING PERSON. you WILL get to them, and you will be stronger than them because they tried to kite you.

I have to say I don't get this part. How can you guarantee getting to someone who can consistently outmanoeuvre you? For that matter, how can you say you'll be stronger for it? Sure, I'm not in the beta and can't test this stuff, but I can at least think through it using logic and reasoning; you're just asserting without any evidence.

the argument that has been flying around here is completely ludicurs because its all about how we no longer have something and thus must be shit for it. nuin, in warlords ret had EVERY fucking tool they could ever need for anything but guess what, their numbers were so trash because they had it all. THATS WHY YOU GOT REPLACED. not because you didnt have mobility, its because all your tools could not help you because you couldn't do anything with them.

Not really.

It should be obvious that there can be qualitative differences between tools. Charge on a 15sec CD is superior to Charge on a 30sec CD by definition, for example. So even if Ret had mobility, and utility, and defensive CDs... what if they were just rubbish? I mean, that's what you're saying yourself after all, so let's examine your argument more closely:

1. Ret had all the needed tools.
2. You were not picked for PvP.
3. Ret tools sucked.
4. Therefore having all the tools is no help.

You have utterly failed to show that #4 follows from #1-3, because you yourself explain that the versions of the tools Ret had were rubbish.

Hello?

Am I the only one to see the gaping hole in this "logic"?

all i care about is that people are saying something thats actually not true about the spec which can be a hell of a lot more hurtful.

Frankly it's too soon to say for certain whether you are right or whether I (or Storm etc) is right. Obviously we both think our sides are right, but we cannot be certain until we see some hard numbers from things like rated PvP representation. If Rets are well or over-represented in high-rated PvP, then clearly I would be wrong and you would be right - and vice versa.

= + =

how will you keep me and my partners from you the entire match while also dealing massive damage to kill me? you wont is the correct response.

See now you're shifting the goalposts.

We're not talking about keeping you and your team away. We're talking about keeping just you away.

Not only this but if thats the path you chose then guess what, your just buffing the entire teams damage output since vengeance aura gives EVERYONE ON MY TEAM 3% crit and holy damage per CC ability you use.

Vengeance Aura only buffs your crit chance and Holy damage. Your team (and yourself?) is just the source of the stacking buff that applies to you and only you.

the pvp game and the game in general has changed, unless you have read over LITERALLY every change AND or is currently playing the current build, do you actually have any understanding of the game? no you dont.

Good to know my research counts then...

nuin, what can a shaman do to keep me at bay all game while also not worrying about my team? whats ACTUALLY stopping me. whats killing me, whats killing my team while this is happening? whats my counter play?

You mean the shaman with the addon tracking who has BoF/BoP/SoV and a mouse-over Purge macro :P ? Or the one with the mouse-over Frost Shock macro and the same "push W to move" mobility you have :P ?

EDIT: also done fighting this circular argument for the week, maybe for a while until next build perhaps. ill go back to letting this page fill up with worthless posts about how we need to redo ret from the ground up because well fuck blizzard right? that massive gaming corporation has no idea how to make this incredibly long lasting MMO game work. No they have clearly no idea and that we are so much smarter than them. ( no offense people who come up with the stuff, some of it is cool, but come on now, you know better than that.)

The fact that there is a problem with one part of the game does not mean the game as a whole is broken.

= + =

Vengeance Aura applies to only you, least according to the tooltip, if it's applying to your team, then that is a bug.

"I am a reliable authority on Legion Ret."
"I don't know how Vengeance Aura works."

I'll be honest: it does not inspire confidence.

[Morally Grey Storm]

"I am a reliable authority on Legion Ret."
"I don't know how Vengeance Aura works."
I'll be honest: it does not inspire confidence.

There's this guy who dissed our dear, well-known, clever , providing and inspiring friend Reghume.
But let's hear him out:

I see he continues to fail at math while using too many words to tell everyone they're idiots and their ideas are worthless. Now watch me get jumped on by ignorant people again.
.

Or here's this large diss, but I'm sure it's all made up, becuase reg has beta and we don't !

LOL. Is this for real? I thought you said you were going to stop posting here because of the "low quality responses" or some such bullshit but apparently the lack of attention was too much for you. Have you learned to count to five yet, Mr. "Divine Hammer hits four times?"

How the Hell do you know what the developers will or won't listen to anyway? In the last beta, aside from our complaint about CS/HotR being tied to the active seal which was thankfully reverted, the only thing they listened to was Storm's inane redesign of Final Verdict. Because they thought it "should have some effect on AoE damage" despite the fact that it, uh, doesn't (actually, the auto cleaving version that it replaced was better in almost every conceivable way). We didn't get seals off GCD like we wanted because some people (like your stupid ass) kept backing up Celestalon on his herpderpmacro nonsense, thanks Uncle Tom. So, we had a completely worthless lv100 talent for the entire expansion, alongside that problem child Seraphim that only exists to screw Prot out of baseline damage so it has to give up consistent mitigation to compete. And now, oh NOW "Seals removed because they weren't providing compelling gameplay," well no shit, Sherlock. Honestly they DESERVE the insults, and worse.

but then there's this great post from this unknown and unrecognized genius of PvP that is reg:

if targets run from me i can either ignore them and fight someone else, heal myself, or eventually get on them and they die.