Tired of the scaremongering regarding EU Referendum

[Deleted]

And then ten other EU nations follow the UK out, as the majority of people in them don't want a federal Europe either.!

Yeah because its federation time on the 23rd of July...
Its the direction the UK have a problem with.

[Hooked]

Don't commit suicide England, get out of the eu now before the rest of the countries do. most of the other countries now also want a vote on it.

[Deleted]

This is really interesting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYqzcqDtL3k

[Noradin]

Firstly i'm still on the fence regarding an EU exit but I gotta say the scaremongering tactics of both sides are really starting to irk me, especially considering we still have 6 weeks to go! Anybody else tired of the scaremongering

Yes, they are quite engrossed in their mudwrestling, and territorital about it, too.
They love to reference other people from outside the UK, but should they dare to comment on the stance they allengedly have, then they are told off and to keep out of the domestic affairs of the UK.
It's really not a domestic affair, though. And if you make promises about how other other countries will supposedly react to get votes then you better believe they will comment on it if you misrepresent their state.

What your anti-EU fration did with the US president was disgusting, first they promise he will give you the moon if only you leave the EU, and then when he sets them right about his stance on this he is told to keep out of your internal affairs? Really? Lying over the projected reactions of other countries to get votes is your internal affairs, and if they are not allowed to comment?

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The EU side is not scaremongering. Not with a 10 foot pole. Every economic agency, every half decent economist and everyone with a remote understanding of geopolitics agrees that the UK has nothing to gain from leaving the EU and everyone has a lot to lose.

Facts aren't scaremongering, facts are facts.

"Don't you dare bring facts into an internal affair of the UK, you outsider!"

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True with Napoleon, he was a leader of his time and a modernizer in some many areas. But to your average Brit who doesn't really research history when it comes to European leaders he is number 2 behind Hitler on the big evil list.

What the Europeans made of it wasn't so bad, true, but then if you look only on the positive sides of someone almost everyone looks like an angle (maybe a tiny one, but still).

[Noradin]

This is really interesting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYqzcqDtL3k

Ah, that one, yes, it is an interesting piece if you study sociology. Not so much if you want information about the Brexit.
It is an opinion priece that mostly uses appeal to emotion and misrepresentation of facts to build a narrative.

[Deleted]

"don't you dare bring facts into an internal affair of the uk, you outsider!"

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you n'wah!

[nextormento]

Well most of continental Europe is in favour of a federation...
Once again, Why the UK should leave - Their wishes are just incompatible.

If by "most" you mean less than 50%, but slightly above the opposing view.


(from eurobarometer 2014)

UK has a strong opinion on the subject. But she's not an outlier.

[Deleted]

And what should Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland do?

Sorry scots. In 20 years though maybe you get another shot at it

[Jessicka]

Not really, he's the leading figure for the leave campaign and, if we vote out, then there is decent chance he will be the next Prime Minister.

Name another politician with charisma.

Hitler, Napoleon?

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And then ten other EU nations follow the UK out, as the majority of people in them don't want a federal Europe either.

There are 27 other nations that don't want a Federal Europe, so it's not going to happen. Even then, I don't know what people are actually afraid of in that eventuality?

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If England votes to leave they will take the rest of the nation with them. The Scottish nationalists will then push hard for another independence referendum and maybe even win this time.

We're basically looking at a situation where Londoners, and in particular old uneducated ones could take the rest of the country on course for a future they won't see and the rest of the country and those with an education don't want. The demographics for in/out really are that stark.

[Deleted]

If England votes to leave they will take the rest of the nation with them. The Scottish nationalists will then push hard for another independence referendum and maybe even win this time.

As much as I'd like that to happen, I wouldn't let Scotland vote if it was up to me. Just to teach those guys that voted against independence a lesson

[Jessicka]

Well it's probably going to be Boris, maybe the UKIP voters go back to the Conservatives all on a EU exit ticket...A snap election before Labour get a credible electable leader.

I am sure the Tories would rather go up against Corbyn today rather than limp on for another four years and maybe then face a hugely successful London Mayor, maybe even one Sadiq Khan

We have fixed terms now, it's really hard to call a snap election; so no, that won't be the strategy.

[Reklia]

I love how its mostly politicians and businessmen arguing to stay in. Of course they would. Its all about the money and power! Screw the common people tired of the retarded laws another COUNTRY imposes on us. So sick of having us bend our knee to uncle Brussels and asking if its okay to do things.

Screw the EU. The British people didn't even want it in the first place. Thank that idiot politician back then for getting us in.

How about instead of quitting the EU you fight like hell to make sure it has a British character to it?

This makes me laugh. It reminds me of how we've lost our identity, how we change our ways to make it easier on the amount of foreigners here. One day the only sense of this being England will be in the museum.

Anyway, forget the term fighting. Our government is weak. Just does as its told with pieces of resistance now and then, but quickly backs down. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't David Cameron once want to get out of EU? Now he's practically licking their boots.

[Jessicka]

I love how its mostly politicians and businessmen arguing to stay in. Of course they would. Its all about the money and power! Screw the common people tired of the retarded laws another COUNTRY imposes on us. So sick of having us bend our knee to uncle Brussels and asking if its okay to do things.

Screw the EU. The British people didn't even want it in the first place. Thank that idiot politician back then for getting us in.



This makes me laugh. It reminds me of how we've lost our identity, how we change our ways to make it easier on the amount of foreigners here. One day the only sense of this being England will be in the museum.

Anyway, forget the term fighting. Our government is weak. Just does as its told with pieces of resistance now and then, but quickly backs down. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't David Cameron once want to get out of EU? Now he's practically licking their boots.

Yeah we should totally bend our knee to the politicians and businessmen who have no track record of regional investment or support for workers, consumers or just general human rights instead.

[Deleted]

Reklia, that is because he made promises as a politician in order to get votes, and now he realizes that if he gets his wishes, he becomes "the guy that pulled UK out of Europe". It might sound cool to you now, but that is a title that puts you right on the wrong side of history.

[Reklia]

Reklia, that is because he made promises as a politician in order to get votes, and now he realizes that if he gets his wishes, he becomes "the guy that pulled UK out of Europe". It might sound cool to you now, but that is a title that puts you right on the wrong side of history.

Yeah I realise Cameron doesn't want that (at least I keep up to some degree on politics). He doesn't want to take the risk. Save his own backside but screw the country.

[Pum]

There is no real reason why the EU should become a federation, we can be an economic bloc without being one nation.

This is codswallop. The only feasible way of the EU being able to survive and the Euro is through gradual federalisation, and if anyone has been paying attention to the machinations of the EU over the years you'll see exactly where the EU is going. If you're content with a federalised Europe then that is your prerogative, but I am not, and this is why this referendum is so important because the assumption of the 'Remain' vote to the British public at least is a vote for the status quo. The EU in 10-15 years won't be the same EU we see today, it can't survive in its current form. I'd be all for staying if there was major reform but the fact of the matter is the EU is a one way train, and you either go along for the ride or get out of its way. The majority of the UK has always been indifferent to the EU so hasn't paid much attention to what it does, but that majority has also never wanted their parliament to have greater powers.

I think the UK is just politically incompatible with the EU, and it always has been, hence why we're always looking for concessions and voting against proposals. Why can we not exist outside the EU but keep our relationship strictly for trade as is originally intended? No other country on earth has the necessity of being part of a political union just to survive. Mexico is doing fine by itself with access to the SM, as is South Korea, yet when the UK wants to depart from the union it's apparently economic apocalypse.

I will admit that both Leave and Remain campaigns have been shit, but everyone must remember that the economic arguments to be made for the Leave campaign are categorically more difficult to define because you cannot define uncertainty, and this difficulty is twofold when you literally have the entire establishment (not just throwing this around) fighting against you. If I am head of the Leave campaign how can I tell the public what relationship the UK has with the EU (regarding membership) when that answer is entirely dependent on the outcome of negotiations? We don't know what kind of agreement we'd come to and we can't assume what sort of membership would be on the table. All we have done so far is said what we'd like and what we wouldn't like, though in an admittedly decisively incoherent fashion.

Banks leaving en masse isn't strictly true either. London is only rivaled by New York as an IFC and trailed by emerging East Asian financial centres, the City has held this spot for hundreds of years, and would continue to be a global financial leader outside of a political union. As I said before, we don't know what kind of access to the SM we'd have or what pillars of the 4 free movements we could bulldoze.

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Was reading an article of London businessleaders a while ago, which all seemed to threaten to leave for Luxemburg, Paris or Brussels if there is a Brexit.

Doesn't seem like a positive to me, and I'm still not certain exactly what the positives would be for the common citizens anyhow, so much european rights and consumer protection taken away.

And what business leaders were those? This is a good read but a little long https://forbritain.org/SMEpoll.pdf

Most of what the EU offers its citizens the UK already had before it was even created, and they wouldn't be stripped if we left.

This referendum isn't just about economics either, we have to think about demographics and social cohesion too. The recent figures Osborne produced of the UK's GDP projection in X years (can't remember) within the EU was entirely dependent on current immigration levels, increasing. For years, immigration has been the #1 issue for the UK and nothing has ever been done about it, and it's one reason (among many) that Labour are hemorrhaging voters to UKIP. The EU isn't the sole problem of our immigration levels, we have too much immigration from EU countries and non-EU countries, but we need a complete reformation of how our immigration system works and we can't do that when we have no control over the former. Saying that however, even if we left I'm unsure if the efficiency and efficacy of a replaced system would be guaranteed with this current crop of politicians, but I am hopeful.

The Remain campaign would be overall more tolerable and less repellent if it wasn't all doom and gloom and shitting in their hands and clapping. Why not run a campaign based on the positives of the EU rather than resort to degrading the opposition? I guess that's the state of political discourse these days, and clearly the Conservatives haven't learned anything from the Sadiq vs. Zac election.

Politics is a fucking mess.

[Raldazzar]

I was in the same boat tbh, didn't he also say if we leave it'll start a war? The guys an idiot.

not sure on the start a war part, but it wouldn't surprise me!

[Noradin]

The Remain campaign would be overall more tolerable and less repellent if it wasn't all doom and gloom and shitting in their hands and clapping. Why not run a campaign based on the positives of the EU rather than resort to degrading the opposition? I guess that's the state of political discourse these days, and clearly the Conservatives haven't learned anything from the Sadiq vs. Zac election.

They would have to admit that those are accomplishments of the EU instead of accomplishments of their own.
They have always tried to claim anything positive form the EU as their personal accomplishments and for anything precieved negative the EU was the perfect scapegoat. Allmost politicans in all memberstates in the EU constantly use that tactic and now it bites them in the ass:
They cannot go back on what they said or they will lose face, they cannot say nothing or they lose the EU and this tactic won't work anymore.
Thus, they resort to mudslinging.

[Deleted]

Honestly I'm not from the UK but I believe the UK shouldn't just leave. I think the UK should make it so its voice gets heard better because currently in the EU all we can hear are Germany and France's voices and I don't really like either in their current incarnation. The UK is a strong nation and should make it so its voice is at as important as France and Germany's.

I believe the UK leaving would be a horrible thing, for the EU somewhat but for the UK the most. While the UK is a powerful nation, and their voice could get heard in the EU if they ... voiced it better, on a world scale... it wouldn't as much. Sure, they're a permanent member of the UN, but besides that it would not be so great for them. Taxes would rise, specialists would leave and you'd be stuck between the EU and USA trade-wise with both imposing taxes. Furthermore, just like Norway and Switzerland, some of the EU regulations would still end up being enforced on you... only you'd have 0 say in it anymore.

[Kalis]

This is codswallop. The only feasible way of the EU being able to survive and the Euro is through gradual federalisation, and if anyone has been paying attention to the machinations of the EU over the years you'll see exactly where the EU is going.

I want us to remain in the EU, I do not want the EU to become federalised, mine is not just a British view in spite of what some claim.

I want a trading bloc with rules on relevant matters regarding trade, if some other nations decide to become a federal state then why not? Why can there not be a two-part EU? Those part of a federal state and those part of a greater trade bloc.

That solution would suit Britain, Ireland, Austria, Holland, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Estonia, Luxembourg, Czech Republic and Slovakia, whereas a federal Europe does not. We already have a two-part system in many areas, e.g. Eurozone and Schengen, so it is not like it is without precedent.

The EU's strength comes from its ability to negotiate as a single entity, that does not require us to be a federal state.



On a slightly different note, the UK leaving the EU will fuck over Germany, Sweden and some others - not only will they be required to cough up more money, but the economic ideology blocs (not sure I phrased that accurately, but whatever) within the EU suddenly shifts away from pro-free market nations being equal/slightly dominant, in favour of the French-led bloc.

Edit: This graph shows what I mean.