[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Deleted]

@Reghame
Ah btw, no I wasn't "outsourced" for my damage, it was even pretty decent so to say. The reason they couldn't bear with me anymore was because Ret could be outplayed and countered so simple and easily. So not my damage kit sucked, but my defense kit sucked big time. CC my healer or keep him busy otherwise, focus train me and force bubble because I couldn't do anything else, then either shatter bubble the moment I put it up or shift focus until it was off - and I'm sure you can guess what happened after this.

Ret was squishy as hell, Ret couldn't pressure enemies if they focused him, Ret's defenses and utility were countered too easily, so all in all Ret was a liability and self-inflicted weakness to bring into Arena after you achieved a certain ranking. THAT'S why I got dumped, and I absolutely understood that and couldn't even speak against it within reason.

To put it into metaphers: Where Ret in WoD was some guy that could actually pack a bit of a punch and was mobile enough to reach said punch target every now and then, he didn't know shit about defense and got koed the moment he took 3 hits.
Regarding Legion it's the complete opposite - because said guy took some fuck-ass steroids to beef himself up doesn't mean a thing if he got a fat ass in trade for it.
To put it in a DBZ metapher: Being beefed up like Trunks against Cell doesn't mean your chances got any better. You may pack a punch, but that's worthless if Cell hasn't any desire to let you connect said punch you're so proud of. In the end you'll still lose.

And my viewpoint exactly sees the same as in WoD, only reversed, for Ret in Legion

[Alindra]

It's the Honor tree, the Honor talents are REALLY good. Lawbringer actually makes Judgment 100% uptime, there is actual more mobility in the tree via Unbound Freedom + Seal of Light is insane. Equality and Hammer of Reckoning together for massive burst? Looking at the PvP tree there are SO many damn tools. Personally I would be Lawbringer and Vengeance Aura. Though Equality, Hammer of Reckoning and Seraphim's Blessing are very good in conjunction to OP burst status. Hell Greater Blessings might actually be a boon here.

Just pointing out that Drownlord posted this in the theory crafting thread:

Seal of Light and Unbound Freedom aren't stacking - Intented?

-----

I know bringing back Long Arm and Pursuit of Justice has been discussed, but I don't think they'd work very well in Legion. Long Arm of the Law works because of how short Judgment's cd is. With double the cooldown its uptime would be half what it is on Live. Worse, we'd be sacrificing a burst window to move, and when we finally get to our destination, we'd have to wait for it to come off CD again (esp at lower haste).

Pursuit of Justice would work better, but unlike live, we have no ranged HP building attacks (BoJ's 12 yard range aside), so if we get cause at range with low to no HP, then we're stuck at low speed - no Judgment or Exorcism to pump it while we move.

Divine Steed's massive speed boost aside, anyone notice that it actually covers less ground over its duration than Speed of Light?
Speed of Light: 70% for 8s , or a total of 560% base movement
Divine Steed: 120% for 3s, or a total of 360% base movement
It's just shy of 2/3 the distance.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Then there's this issue regarding Seal of No HoPo to Activate Until Already in Melee.

You have to have HoPo to activate it.

[Teleros]

Then there's this issue regarding Seal of No HoPo to Activate Until Already in Melee.

You have to have HoPo to activate it.

The PvP L28 talent lets Judgement generate HP, for what it's worth.

Course, this means it does less damage (Lawbringer), or no Hammer of Reckoning.

Yay.

[Morally Grey Storm]

The PvP L28 talent lets Judgement generate HP, for what it's worth.

Course, this means it does less damage (Lawbringer), or no Hammer of Reckoning.

Yay.

no sane man will take Divine Punisher when there's Lawbringer at hand.

[Animefreak3K]

Vengeance Aura increases your damage and crit chance. Everybody in it's area (40y afaik) will gain "Vengeance Aura". If your Teammates are CC't you gain 1 Stack of this Aura for each CC your enemies lands. I think that's why @Reghame wanted to say .

Does Vengeance Aura proc from all kind of CC, even short ones, also with DR?
Currently, it triggers from all Stuns, Disorients, Fears, Silences, Sleeps, Freezes, Incapacitates, Polymorphs, Banishes, Shackle Undeads, Turn Undeads, Horrors, and Saps (Celestalon)

Back to the Vengeance Aura: If a group gets hit by a AoE-Stun (or other CC) and let's say 4 ppl are CC't, do i get 4 stacks? Just to be clear that, so i can check the CC's and report Bugs.
An AoE Stun on 4 nearby allies would give 4 stacks of Vengeance Aura. (Celestalon 07.05.2016)


But guys tell me, why are you argueing with people, who have access to Alpha months ago, spended hours to test and test and test. Just we've got more positive Feedback to give (and won't fit in your world)?

What would change if all high-rated PvP and PvE Rets we're mostly happy? Would that change your point of view?

As Reg said (and me too) a long time ago - Legion (PvP) is different than WoD, MoP, etc.
You have to think different do understand some changes (even if many don't like them).
First i didn't like that cut in healing and the lesser speed-ups, Mobility, the loss of clemency and so on.
But the i (you) spend, the more i realized that everything is so different - there's no need for.

And to the Kiting-Part: As Reg said many times, no one can ran aways forever. You can also deal good damage while someone is kiting you. Otherwise you cannot be killed fast enought while someone is kiting you. Even mages cannot kill you soo easily (maybe arcane).

- - - Updated - - -

The PvP L28 talent lets Judgement generate HP, for what it's worth.

Course, this means it does less damage (Lawbringer), or no Hammer of Reckoning.

Yay.

But you only if you use Judgment twice on a target.
Judgment
Judgment - 2 HP
Judgment
Judgment - 2 HP
Judgment
Judgment - 2 HP
and so on....

If you swap your Target - it starts again.
Lawbringer is too good for damage, but can a problem for CC.
Also it's still bugged, because your HoJ still does ~10% damage on your target (of it's max HP).

Hammer of Reckoning does (stacked up to 100%) about 105-110k damage (tooltip). Justicar's Vengeance is about 165k and TV (without FV) is about 130k. Judgment about 100k.

[Morally Grey Storm]

But guys tell me, why are you argueing with people, who have access to Alpha months ago, spended hours to test and test and test.

because we have working brains.

And me personally, I'd be fethed if I took anyone's opinion regarding Ret for granted.

You and reg like what you're seeing, Thete doesnt, Sol doesnt even delve into PvP territory, Lobster is not too terribly happy either, just as ruiizu.
These are just a few names.

Whom do you suggest I believe firmly and unflinchingly?

Or maybe you allow us to form our own critical approach and view?
Pretty please?

[Animefreak3K]

If you read through all the pages, you can see that if some says something positive about what people here aren't happy about it - they're starting to "blame". For which reason? Only because someone who tested says: "Guys it's not that bad as you think"?

because we have working brains.

You can only see and don't feel what Retibution is like in Legion - that's a huge difference.

Sure everybody has it's own opinion, there's no problem with it.

Whom do you suggest I believe firmly and unflinchingly?

Do you believe in any other opinion than your's?

[Morally Grey Storm]

If you read through all the pages, you can see that if some says something positive about what people here aren't happy about it - they're starting to "blame". For which reason? Only because someone who tested says: "Guys it's not that bad as you think"?

Because we are not happy with what we're seeing.
We're not happy with decisions they make regarding game as a whole and Ret in particular.
We're not happy with design intents and how they deliver.

You can't and won't order us to stfu and listen to what you triggerhappy lot are preaching on about.

You can only see and don't feel what Retibution is like in Legion - that's a huge difference.

do I need to FEEL no mobility gameplay that is Ret?
Do I need to FEEL absolute vulnerability before dispels or is it possible to figure it out?
Do I have to go on?

Do you believe in any other opinion than your's?

I'll believe none bar myself in the end for in the end I'll be the judge of do I like Ret or not.

But I will listen and pay respect to an opinion that is based on critical approach, and is not full of bland, empty, retarded, nonsensical passes along the lines of reg f.e.

I will listen to Thete for sure. I am inetersted in Solsacra's theorycrafting for I respect him much eventhough Dragonslaying doesnt concern me anymore.
I'll listen to Nuin as soon as he forms a cohenrent opinion.

But the bottom line is I wont listen to anyone who orders me to not argue against him solely because of "I HAZ BETA ND U DONT!" arguement.

[Deleted]

Well the problems are on both sides.
One side is exaggerating a bit when it's about PvP because they know the past of Retribution - something I can understand. Those who mentioned positive things didn't provide convincing arguments to prove their standing. And what happens? People are talking in different directions and getting nowhere but angry. :/

The biggest change from a PvP point of view - and I think this is, what Reghame and Animefreak wanted to say - is that all speccs have intended weaknesses. I talked about the "three pillar" system a while ago, if some of you might remember. Blizzard stated they want to make group play more necessary than before. Therefore they are trying to give some speccs utility spells to compensate weaknesses of other speccs.
For example Ret's mobility weakness could be improved a bit by pairing with a Windwalker Monk (talented sprint usable on others, pvp talent for FSK that improves movement speed for others walking in the line of the spell), Enhancement shaman (some sort of speed-totem if I remember correctly), Marksman. Classes with Stuns (DH for example) or other abilities to get people to themselves (Priests for gripping the Ret, Death Knights for gripping the enemy) might work too.
If you take a look at Demon Hunters for example.. they are very strong and mobile, but weak in their defensives and Anti-CC. A single Earthbind Totem is enough to prevent a Demon Hunter from moving around. And their only Anti-CC is the new Insignia. But they have an AoE Stun on Chaos Nova, another Stun via Talent, AoE Stun via Metamorphosis and a ranged movement slow via Glaive throw-talent. Demon Hunter and Ret paladin combined might be quite powerful thanks to Freedom, Protection and Sanctuary. Ret allows the Demon Hunter to move around more freely and in exchange the Demon Hunter stops the enemy from getting away, allowing the Ret to get to the enemy.
I don't know if this will work out as planned and how many "pairings" will be useful, but it looks like the intention of the gamedesign.
The main problem is, that PvP is very hard to test at the moment, because the PvP templates are way overtuned for every specc.

From what I have tested and seen, Rets stronger things in PvP are:
High damage when you get to your enemy and high AoE damage thanks to Greater Judgement+Lawbringer and Divine Tempest. High passive Healing, thanks to Divine Tempest and Luminescence. Quite useful but too limited Healing via Word of Glory (srsly.. remove the HP cost OR the cooldown). High Anti-CC capabilities.
And according to other Hybrids, Rets Flash of Light seems to be one of the more powerful Healing spells. Monks Effuse is way weaker than Flash of Light. Healing Surge might be instant but costs their damage resource, while we are using Mana. But I have to admit, that I didn't look into all other DD Healing spells. But there are different concepts behind it. I'm not sure, if it will work out this way, because I don't like the idea to be too dependend on hard casted Flash of Lights as well, but other speccs have other restrictions they don't like in that case.
One of the biggest problems is, that Blizzard seems to overestimate our immunities and therefore cuts our defense. Shield of Vengeance needs to be undispellable and should be stronger/have a shorter cooldown - don't mind if they would remove the "damaging part" of it or putting a limit on it. That would help in so many ways, even in PvE, where we could use it together with Divine Steed to get through effects faster/safer if it isn't a one shot mechanic.

[Deleted]

If you read through all the pages, you can see that if some says something positive about what people here aren't happy about it - they're starting to "blame". For which reason? Only because someone who tested says: "Guys it's not that bad as you think"?



You can only see and don't feel what Retibution is like in Legion - that's a huge difference.

Sure everybody has it's own opinion, there's no problem with it.



Do you believe in any other opinion than your's?

I thought i had adressed this already.

Wether you or any alpha tester feels things will be fine if you lock yourself to X talents or give lots of haste is completely irrelevent. That is a moot opinion. It's completely worthless and void of any reason.

We can see the limitations of the system. Those have to be adressed. Giving feedback of: Its all good if and if and if. Those are excuses. It's lack of vision. Those are not valid opinions in my eyes, nor should be for anyone with some sense.

[Morally Grey Storm]

fun fact: I was saying Ret will be shite before Cata, you shunned me. Guess who wa right in the end.
I said Ret will be shite come MoP, you shunned me. Guess who was right in the end.
Now you are shunning me once more. Care to wager now?

Third time is the charm huh?)

@Nemmar thank you for solid response and proving my point.

[Animefreak3K]

Because we are not happy with what we're seeing.
We're not happy with decisions they make regarding game as a whole and Ret in particular.
We're not happy with design intents and how they deliver.

Ehm, people told already that it's not that bad as is looks like. But they're still "blamed". For which reason?

You can't and won't order us to stfu and listen to what you triggerhappy lot are preaching on about.

No one does! We're just giving information/feeback to people out there (not only here, of course), and answering questions from you guys.

do I need to FEEL no mobility gameplay that is Ret?
Do I need to FEEL absolute vulnerability before dispels or is it possible to figure it out?
Do I have to go on?

Yes, you have to if you want to know, what the game itself feels like. Legion is different, so hard to understand?

I'll believe none bar myself in the end for in the end I'll be the judge of do I like Ret or not.

And that's exactly the Problem.
If someone with experience says: "Mobility isn't a problem"
You say: "Your're wrong"

That what most of your Posts like.
You've made your opinion, and that's it. Other opinions aren't welcome.

But I will listen and pay respect to an opinion that is based on critical approach, and is not full of bland, empty, retarded, nonsensical passes along the lines of reg f.e.

I think it's a personal thing between you and @Reghame, that's why Reghame's opinions isn't worth reconizing for you. Don't blend yourself.

But the bottom line is I wont listen to anyone who orders me to not argue against him solely because of "I HAZ BETA ND U DONT!" arguement.

Don't be an idiot - no one does this.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

People have excessively explained why there's something going on and you and you know who keeps saying everything is fine. We've gone over this so many times it's ludicrous and I feel like you're strawmanning us.

[Teleros]

But guys tell me, why are you argueing with people, who have access to Alpha months ago, spended hours to test and test and test. Just we've got more positive Feedback to give (and won't fit in your world)?

If someone with experience says: "Mobility isn't a problem"

I'd be delighted to be proved wrong, but my concern is how valid your experiences in the alpha/beta are. Classes are unbalanced, abilities don't work properly, and the good old climb up the ratings ladder doesn't really exist.

There doesn't seem to be much in the way of complexity and all that in the Legion PvP I've seen to date - I'd be very surprised if the "ZERG RUSH KEKEKE!" mentality that seems to dominate ATM survives long when Legion goes live and all the serious PvP types start grinding for those high ratings.

Now, I hope I'm wrong, but based on what I've seen, and heard, and my experience with Ret since vanilla... well there's a reason I'm pessimistic over this stuff.

But you only if you use Judgment twice on a target.

Of course, hence the snark .

= + =

This is what I expect will happen throughout Legion:

PvE
- Ret will be a viable, but not top-end, DPS spec
- It will need progressively stronger set bonuses to make up for scaling issues
- It will not be desirable for AE or movement-intensive fights
- As a result of the first and third points, it will be under-represented in Mythic (especially high-end Mythic) raiding

PvP
- Ret will be viable in a few comps; specifically, fewer than just about any other melee spec
- It will be tremendously under-represented in high rated PvP
- There will be nerfs due to PvP burst in low/mid/un- rated PvP

That's what I expect, and frankly I've not seen anything to suggest these predictions won't come true (well duh, else I wouldn't make them :P ).

= + =

The biggest change from a PvP point of view - and I think this is, what Reghame and Drownlord wanted to say - is that all speccs have intended weaknesses.

This has always been the case in the past, except that the weaknesses were often quite, well, weak.

However, there are some problems with this with respect to Ret:

1. Everybody has basically decent DPS due to PvE needs, and reasonable burst for the same reason.
2. Mobility, for a DPS spec, especially a melee one, is the most important non-damage component of the spec.
3. Ret, almost uniquely amongst all specs, is trivially easy to counter with respect to its utility, both offensive and defensive.

As I said before there is a huge difference between "virtually zero mobility" and "warrior mobility", to give one sub-DH example.

I don't know if this will work out as planned and how many "pairings" will be useful, but it looks like the intention of the gamedesign.

Agreed, but see above re how I think it will turn out.

The main problem is, that PvP is very hard to test at the moment, because the PvP templates are way overtuned for every specc.

Again, this sort of thing is why I place less value on the experiences of those in the alpha/beta than they do.

[Taeldorian]

The PvP L28 talent lets Judgement generate HP, for what it's worth.

Course, this means it does less damage (Lawbringer), or no Hammer of Reckoning.

Yay.

I feel like this should be a PvE talent that should swap places with equality. It would probably be the go to if that were the case though, but I really don't understand why this isn't a PvE talent somewhere, or even baseline. Not that generating this extra 1 HoPo really helps, but eh.

@Animefreak3K I've been in the alpha since they invited 13/13M people, a lot of people in my guild got in. Arguing with someone who believes they're right is just natural. Also, you say he spent hours and hours testing but he didn't know Vengeance Aura only applied to yourself and not your entire team? I find that hard to believe and can't really consider it a mistake especially with hours and hours of testing. I went holy instead of ret 2 builds ago due to it being more fun than ret (in my opinion) and I need a breath of fresh air from dpsing since I've done it since Wrath and honestly I have to constantly chase down my entire group because we have no mobility. A horse that lasts 3s and has a long CD? Sure, it helps on movement heavy fights (kind of) but what about when we're killing groups of mobs and my group covers 5x more ground than I do? I was in a group with a Vengeance DH, 2 havoc DH's and a mage, that was the worst time I think I've had in a while. How many times do you think I almost asked them to slow down because I have no way to keep up with them? A lot. I got to honor level 50 as ret, played for a few days and went holy. It's not great and as someone pointed out in the theorycrafting thread the two abilities that give us a lot of mobility don't stack currently. Mobility is practically required for melee dps, especially in an expansion where many casters have great mobility or great survivability.

As for PvE though, not having any mobility as holy or ret is causing a lot of issues. Holy is doing great right now and it's extremely fun but it's getting really frustrating (this includes ret) not being able to keep up with my group. DHs get ahead of me so quick I don't even realize it and their mastery only increases that. Everyone else can keep up, but we (paladins) can't. Prot has it a little bit better becase they can alter their horse or pick a different talent because they have it baseline like all specs should. It's extremely frustrating not having mobility in PvE. Just because Reg says we do doesn't mean we do, I've been in the alpha for an extremely long time and I say we don't. Does that mean everyone has to agree with me? No. That's the worst statement I think I've seen you make in a really really long time. Explain how we have mobility in PvE if that's what you believe. Explain to me and everyone else here how we're supposed to keep up with DH's and warriors in PvE when they are faster and can cover more ground in a short amount of time than we can. The 3s horse doesn't help that, at all.

[Ulthane]

Just pointing out that Drownlord posted this in the theory crafting thread:



-----

I know bringing back Long Arm and Pursuit of Justice has been discussed, but I don't think they'd work very well in Legion. Long Arm of the Law works because of how short Judgment's cd is. With double the cooldown its uptime would be half what it is on Live. Worse, we'd be sacrificing a burst window to move, and when we finally get to our destination, we'd have to wait for it to come off CD again (esp at lower haste).

Pursuit of Justice would work better, but unlike live, we have no ranged HP building attacks (BoJ's 12 yard range aside), so if we get cause at range with low to no HP, then we're stuck at low speed - no Judgment or Exorcism to pump it while we move.

Divine Steed's massive speed boost aside, anyone notice that it actually covers less ground over its duration than Speed of Light?
Speed of Light: 70% for 8s , or a total of 560% base movement
Divine Steed: 120% for 3s, or a total of 360% base movement
It's just shy of 2/3 the distance.

Actually did not know this. Thanks for the clarification.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Ehm, people told already that it's not that bad as is looks like. But they're still "blamed". For which reason?

What am I blaming you or reg for?
Do I ?

No one does! We're just giving information/feeback to people out there (not only here, of course), and answering questions from you guys.

then don't expect us to believe every single word for feth's sake.

Yes, you have to if you want to know, what the game itself feels like. Legion is different, so hard to understand?

No I don't .

Would it be matters I have not the slightest clue about, like physics or chemistry - I'd ask anyone in posession of this specific knowledge.
But around Ret I know a thing or two.
I can combine 2 with 2 and get 4 at the end on my own .

And that's exactly the Problem.
If someone with experience says: "Mobility isn't a problem"
You say: "Your're wrong"

I say: "what makes you think so?"
and in responce I get stockpile of pathetic talents Ret can talent into thrown at me, without any further explanation or argumentation.

And that's exactly the Problem.

That what most of your Posts like.
You've made your opinion, and that's it. Other opinions aren't welcome.

bullshit.
I am not happy with what I'm seeing and hearing, that's for sure.
But I am eager to hear argumentation taht is a bit more sophisticated than "im telling you you gotta listen and follow" or "im killing doodz on beta zerefore me=right".

I think it's a personal thing between you and @Reghame, that's why Reghame's opinions isn't worth reconizing for you. Don't blend yourself.

there is nothing personal between us.
I am not hating him as a person, I hate what he says and how he acts.
Would it be different circumstances(i.e. IRL) I would by him a drink and suggest we sit there and discuss anything.

Don't be an idiot - no one does this.

Don't be in denial, and spend some time carefully reading what's coming out from reg on a normal basis, its precisely that.

[Gasper]

Can we all just take a moment and remember how terrible Retribution was in classic.

[Ulthane]

@Teleros hit the nail on the head. -hands cookie-