[Prot] WoD/Legion Alpha Discussion

[Sepelio]

Defense is of course valued higher than offensive as a tank, ultimately your main function is staying alive, but you break it down as, what is the bare minimum i need to stay alive, that can then be translated into offensive output. Its slightly different for first tier each expac as healers have genuine mana issues at time so just mitigation as much raw damage as possible increases in value, but even then, with so much of the survivability being based upon your own level of play, it comes down to how comfortable you are with playing what would be "Riskier"

[Deleted]

Is this really the case? I know purely defensive play is not going to be nearly as good as increased offensive capabilities, unless the balance is completely broken. I still thought defense was valued higher than offensive capabilities, however. I find this kind of stuff interesting since I'll likely never be a cutting edge player.

I probably should have worded the post a little better. Of course your main goal, as Sep said, is to stay alive. However a good tank will always manage to stay alive and do as much damage as possible. Of course this can differ on a fight to fight basis or on your healers - namely how deep into the expansion we are due to mana isues etc.

[Damonharp]

I probably should have worded the post a little better. Of course your main goal, as Sep said, is to stay alive. However a good tank will always manage to stay alive and do as much damage as possible. Of course this can differ on a fight to fight basis or on your healers - namely how deep into the expansion we are due to mana isues etc.

I wasn't speaking in terms of general tank ethos, I was speaking from the perspective of the balance of that specific talent in BETA.

In terms of the point you made about general tank ethos:

We don't always gear for dps>survivability for progression, an example would be the tank trinkets while HFC was still current content. You would go WUE + ACP for progression and getting as tank-y as you could, then roll out the class trinket for the absurd damage when the healers started getting their shit together.

Sera will likely be the same thing, assuming of course it isn't balanced later to be of significant defensive value, at which point Sera would be worth for progression as well, like current Sera.

I was simply asking about the state of the talent on BETA, because from what I read it's strong offensively, weak defensively, is that still the case?

- - - Updated - - -

Is this really the case? I know purely defensive play is not going to be nearly as good as increased offensive capabilities, unless the balance is completely broken. I still thought defense was valued higher than offensive capabilities, however. I find this kind of stuff interesting since I'll likely never be a cutting edge player.

The difference can be pretty stark when you're using (carefully) /sit /cancelaura macros with the class trinket, to get it to proc on cd.

This obviously isn't optimal for survivability... (like... obviously... you're toggling off Hpally shields and stuff) but it can wreck dps charts.

[Fiskyh]

Alright, thanks for the replies. I have not played during HFC, so I only know about the damage output with the class trinket and such in theory. I do know that pumping out as much damage as possible is good, but since I never did mythic, it's difficult for me to judge these things. I can only go on what people here say and the theory behind it. It's very interesting to hear the opinions of the top players and (trying to) apply it in your own play.

[Sepelio]

@Damonharp - The HFC argument you made was realistically the opposite unless quite bluntly you were a shit tank - from the moment i got my class trinket the only boss i didn't run it on for prog was Tyrant.

And relative to Sera on beta, it is decent defensively atm purely because it more than doubles all your secondaries at 830ilvl, is it worse than on live defensively? Hard to gauge accurately purely because of how many raw stats it gives, i'd say its slightly better, especially due to the ability to frontload it and have a less than full duration Seraphim when you want to.

[Fusoya]

We don't always gear for dps>survivability for progression, an example would be the tank trinkets while HFC was still current content. You would go WUE + ACP for progression and getting as tank-y as you could, then roll out the class trinket for the absurd damage when the healers started getting their shit together.

This is very wrong.

[Meanshield]

That feel when managing charges will actually matter on prog, especially if you're running seraphim, if you disagree then you should kill yourself

Playing without a resource is a pathetic design. No matter how you turn it, having no resource to deal with gives Paladins a HUGE step up over every other tanking class.. No matter how shit you are with managing Seraphim.

[Damonharp]

I'm mistaken.

Thought I read before that WUE was strictly stronger in terms of lowering your TMI. I honestly hadn't thought much of it since the damage from the class trinket is so absurd it wouldn't be worth passing up on almost any fight.

That said, tier is effectively over anyway.

[Lysozyme]

People who say "we went for full survivability on progression" are talking about cutting edge progression. I don't mean "we killed mythic archimonde in this patch we're the best", I mean people in guilds that kill mythic archimonde within a few months of the patch release. There is an enormous difference between killing mythic archimonde at, say, 710-720, and 745. Not only for how heavy the hits you personally are taking, but also how quickly the rest of your raid can e.g. kill the deathcallers.

[celinamuna]

People who say "we went for full survivability on progression" are talking about cutting edge progression. I don't mean "we killed mythic archimonde in this patch we're the best", I mean people in guilds that kill mythic archimonde within a few months of the patch release. There is an enormous difference between killing mythic archimonde at, say, 710-720, and 745. Not only for how heavy the hits you personally are taking, but also how quickly the rest of your raid can e.g. kill the deathcallers.

Prob top 50 world and that's it.

[Lysozyme]

You think that only the top 50 world prot paladins are those that needed to play defensively on Mythic Archimonde on progression, and all remaining ones had sufficient gear that it wasn't necessary?

[Sepelio]

Not even top 50. The moment you got the legendary ring everything was a walk in the park.

Hate agreeing with lazel but hes more or less right, we were 50 or 51 and i ran seraphim/class trinket and was sitting to force procs.

[tru]

Well if disc is tunned right wouldnt you stack as many of those in a raid for the added damage then? since yall been talking about pumping out tank damage vs def

[Deleted]

You think that only the top 50 world prot paladins are those that needed to play defensively on Mythic Archimonde on progression, and all remaining ones had sufficient gear that it wasn't necessary?

It depended somewhat more than people are acknowledging on your healer setup (and ratio of moutbreathing to not-mouthbreating healers), but effectively Lazel is correct about the legendary ring. The only real exception is raids with no holy paladins (of which to my knowledge there were vanishingly few in the top 50) - the difference between Beacon and no Beacon was and still is massive.

On the topic of trinkets, WUE + LoV was the defensive choice for almost every fight given the ubiquity of magical damage. The degree to which LoV functions as an EHP increase in progression situations rather than just a source of damage is often overlooked because the trinket does so much damage.

[Krom2040]

Maybe this has already been discussed at length, but... does anybody else feel like Protection is oddly unresponsive? Like I feel like I have to mash Avenger's Shield three or four times sometimes before it actually fires.

[celinamuna]

Maybe this has already been discussed at length, but... does anybody else feel like Protection is oddly unresponsive? Like I feel like I have to mash Avenger's Shield three or four times sometimes before it actually fires.

Possibly lagging ?

[Krom2040]

Possibly lagging ?

It could be, but I don't have this issue on my warrior, or least not when in dungeons.

[Deleted]

It could be, but I don't have this issue on my warrior, or least not when in dungeons.

Can't say I've ever had this issue to be fair, outside of playing on US realms (I'm in EU). Only thing I can think of is any add-ons you run only on your Paladin that can cause weird latency issues.

[Damonharp]

Those feels when you get called a shit tank because the other Protection pally you pugged with thinks running acp and class trinket is shit, and that running the cleave trinket, plus wue, putting you at 4450 haste rating is BiS.

Ohh and hes right cause he was 12th in world to kill MArchie (he wasn't)

[YourPalFleisch]

That's when you laugh and let the logs tell the story.