The change that will make me quit

[Murlocbait]

You assume that I do not or have not taken part in that level of gamepaly. You would be wrong.

I made no such assumption. You stated that you didn't do any of that during the week since the change. My point is that you cannot assert that the change isn't a big deal when you haven't dealt with it in the settings in which it has the biggest impact. I doubt anyone cares that much about how it affects leveling or questing - it's in raids and Mythic dungeons that this will be the biggest pain in the ass and create the most unpleasant situations.

[jettzypher]

But considering my experience with that level of content, I do feel safe making assumptions as to how big of a deal it will or will not be. We've been required to have specific reagents to make changes to talents, glyphs, and specs in the past that were vastly more inconvenient than this change.

[Deleted]

So instead of having to have a stack of tome of the clear mind we'll have to have a stack of new item scribes make that allows us to change talents. Sounds like virtually no change in practice.

Exactly. People are yelling "DOOOOOOOOM" as it in reality only is a small change. Who even need to change talents for random dungeons or LFR ? Just something you need to invest some gold in if you want it "on the go" for raiding or keystone dungeons. It seems fair.

[PaladinBash]

All I can think is that I will make money selling these things on the AH, selling the mats that make them on the AH or that they will be so cheap and pointless that they'll be reduced to the level of feasts and inconsequential.

[Murlocbait]

But considering my experience with that level of content, I do feel safe making assumptions as to how big of a deal it will or will not be. We've been required to have specific reagents to make changes to talents, glyphs, and specs in the past that were vastly more inconvenient than this change.

And others, myself included, who also have experience with that level of content feel it will be a big deal. There's no actual defense for this change other than, "It's not that big a deal." That's honestly the best argument i've seen for this from players. Why do people defend something that is, at best, only a minor annoyance? Do you actually like changes being made to the game to make playing in a raid or mythic dungeon MORE annoying? Why?

Since the new talent system went in in MoP we've had exactly ONE reagent for changing our talents between fights, which has had a minor cost and mostly been an unnecessary annoyance. Previous reagents don't factor into this because the old talent system was never meant to encourage players to swap talents on the fly - it was a different game then. With MoP and through WoD, we were told the new Talent system was supposed to encourage experimentation, making choices, and having the ability to swap talents to adapt to situations. That's fine - it's the design decision for Talents and while I'm not super in love with it overall, I've come to enjoy it.

In Legion, warrior talents are a fucking mess. In order to play decently, you need to spec for either single-target or AoE. If you try to go for both, you're just gimping yourself for no good reason. They designed it that way, and while it's already a bad idea, it's at least functional if you can easily/freely swap said talents between fights. But now they've made it more complicated/annoying to do so for no reason other than to oppose the very functionality THEY CREATED with the current talent layout and design. No one has been able to demonstrate why this is actually a good idea, only that it's "not as bad as you think." That's not a good argument for adding a new annoyance to a video game - it's not a good argument for anything.

[jettzypher]

I'm not trying to argue why it's a great idea. I just think people like you are blowing it out of proportion. And it's not adding anything that isn't already on live servers. It's merely a side grade to what currently exists. Most people haven't even had the luxury of experiencing the completely reagent free ability to hot-swap talents that existed prior to last week's update. So to cry doom and make stupid like comments like "The change that will make me quit" is petty.

[Teph]

Design goal: "Lets design talent trees in the most simplistic way possible and make it easy to let players change them."

Now: "Our design is shit. Fixing would be too troublesome, so lets annoy the players even more by making our dumb system even more annoying."


Sounds like a fine plan.

[Beardyface]

Because there was already a thread on this in the general forum and hiding your rage in a sub forum goes a longer way than giving feedback where it can be seen. Obviously the official forums would be the worst place.

Honestly, neither in this nor in the other thread I can see why it is such a bad change that somebody would quit the game over it. I mean..I kinda get what upsets people...and I kinda don't see the design point in this change (other than giving scribes something to make money with) - I just don't understand why one would quit over it.

Seen by whom?

Also, if you think I would quit over this change alone, you haven't read the thread.

[Archimtiros]

But considering my experience with that level of content, I do feel safe making assumptions as to how big of a deal it will or will not be. We've been required to have specific reagents to make changes to talents, glyphs, and specs in the past that were vastly more inconvenient than this change.

Not actually during the time in which changing talents was necessary on a per fight basis.

FWIW I don't think the change is a big deal, as I said before, they'll be like feasts: expensive to start, but quickly trivialized.

That said, you can't argue with his point: it is an impactful change to raiders who feel the need to change talents to optimize for each boss, as that happens multiple times in a row throughout a single raid instance. How much of an annoyance it is, is up to the individual to decide, but it isn't entirely negligible.

[Murlocbait]

And it's not adding anything that isn't already on live servers. It's merely a side grade to what currently exists.

Reagent bought from vendor at a set price =/= crafted item only available through one profession or at player-determined prices oh ah.

There's such a significant difference between those two things that you have to be joking... i mean c'mon now.

[Divinexve]

> Log into the beta
>Make an arms warrior
>Cry

Please blizzard

[Beardyface]

I don't know why I'm commenting again, since no one is reading what I write anyway, but I have always been a glutton for punishment, so giddy 'up!

As I've said before, my concern is less with raiding, and more with Mythic+, which is what I had planned to do as my main source of progression in Legion.

These won't be like feasts at all. Feasts in a raid setting are only needed every hour (for most) or upon death. Raids have no timer you're trying to beat, so the time in-between pulls is a negligible issue. I don't see this being a huge change to raiding.

Mythic+ is another story. You're on a timer. You've got 45 minutes - enough for one feast to last if no one dies. These dungeons are going to really want you to optimize every second of every pull. How are you going to feel when the lock your running with (just using lock as en example), keeps holding up the group to say:

"Hang on. Gotta change my talents."

Then the healer chimes in: "Ooh, I should do that, too."

Then everyone is changing their talent - every time someone pops one of these things. Or, if you're not, you've got the window to change, and you're thinking, hmm, someone just popped one of these things down. They're worth 200g. Should I change something up?

Meanwhile, timer's ticking...

Or you bring a hunter along who loves topping the meters. To do that, he has to switch from single target to cleave to AoE, depending on the pull. He's rich, so he's just loaded up with these things:

"Wait, don't pull! Gotta change my talents!"

"Wait, hang on! AoE pack, give me one second."

"Wait, sorry, I ran out. Didn't think I would use more than 20 of these. Anyone have one? This is a single target boss."

"WAIT! I have some on an alt. Going to send them to myself real quick. Anyone have a mailbox?"

On live servers today, you can change talents all you want for what's essentially free. Tomes are a pittance. People do it all the time. Suddenly you're making something that's on the live servers more cumbersome to do - something that people have been doing for more than 4 years now.

What do you do to that lock or hunter? They're annoying, but they're only trying to play the way they used to on live. They're only trying to do the best job they can.

Do you kick them? Do you find someone who cares less about their performance? What would you do?

[mhdoe]

It used to be that way with glyph s and it was not bad wish they would go back to having to go to certain areas for those it made it feel more like something that you had to think about not just switch on the fly.

[Archimtiros]

These won't be like feasts at all. Feasts in a raid setting are only needed every hour (for most) or upon death. Raids have no timer you're trying to beat, so the time in-between pulls is a negligible issue. I don't see this being a huge change to raiding.

Saying they're like feasts was in regard to their acquisition and relative rarity, not their use. That said, I would consider raids to have a timer, because you do generally have set raid times, it's just a lot longer. True that gives you more time, but you're also more apt to spend time doling out loot, wiping and corralling 20 people rather than 5.

Mythic+ is another story. You're on a timer. You've got 45 minutes - enough for one feast to last if no one dies. These dungeons are going to really want you to optimize every second of every pull. How are you going to feel when the lock your running with (just using lock as en example), keeps holding up the group to say:

I wouldn't compare those to raids, I'd compare them to CM's, as that's what they're built off of and taking the place of. In that case, it's really not any different from current CMs, if anything tomes make them more forgiving because you can change talents period, even if it's burdensome. The idea being that you plan ahead, and obviously if you're strapped for time, you don't make allowances to change talents every 5 minutes. That's kind of a no brainer.

Or you bring a hunter along who loves topping the meters. To do that, he has to switch from single target to cleave to AoE, depending on the pull. He's rich, so he's just loaded up with these things:

Control your players. If the talent change isn't necessary and is eating time you can't afford to waste, don't do it, or get a new player. This isn't really any different from the raider who's really good except he goes afk for 20m after every fight.

Do you kick them? Do you find someone who cares less about their performance? What would you do?

Yes. If it's a unnecessary hindrance on the rest of the group. If you're making a choice to pursue time-limited content, you build the party and strategize around that fact.

- - - Updated - - -

It used to be that way with glyph s and it was not bad wish they would go back to having to go to certain areas for those it made it feel more like something that you had to think about not just switch on the fly.

No, it really didn't, not the least of which because glyphs never had such a large impact on player performance.

[wrynil]

Seems fine to me?

[stevenho]

GG "fixing" stuff that isn't broken.
This will be a complete non-issue for progress guilds, and a complete misery for pugs. And a lot of people are pugging.
Way to go Blizzard.

[Beardyface]

I wouldn't compare those to raids, I'd compare them to CM's, as that's what they're built off of and taking the place of.

Blizzard has stated multiple times that Mythic+ is an alternative progression path to raids. They've also stated they are going to be far different from CMs, and from everything we've seen, that's true. The gear from high level Mythic+ will be on par with high level raid gear. This has been stated.

Control your players. If the talent change isn't necessary and is eating time you can't afford to waste, don't do it, or get a new player. This isn't really any different from the raider who's really good except he goes afk for 20m after every fight.

If you have enough free time to organize these types of players, that's great. If all your friends are able to keep up with your schedule, that's great, too. But if you're in a situation when you have to PuG replacements, or set rules for new folks that fill in when your friends who have agreed to your rules can't make it that night, why would you want to introduce a contention point that serves no design purpose? It's going to be PuGs (read: the vast majority of players) that this affects the most.

Again, like I've said already in this thread, if they designed talents decently, this wouldn't be an issue. But with their god awful talent design, the only thing this change does is cause problems. There's not a single positive element to this change, outside of giving inscriptionists a way to make money early in the expansion, and that's more a reflection of how badly they're handling professions than anything else.

[stevenho]

I don't even think scribes will make much money off of this.
Guilds will have scribes crafting this stuff from gbank herbs, and pugs will not be using it.

[Archimtiros]

Blizzard has stated multiple times that Mythic+ is an alternative progression path to raids. They've also stated they are going to be far different from CMs, and from everything we've seen, that's true. The gear from high level Mythic+ will be on par with high level raid gear. This has been stated.

Which has nothing to do with my statement. Conceptually, and design wise, they are most similar to CM's, and comparatively they don't operate much differently.

If you have enough free time to organize these types of players, that's great. If all your friends are able to keep up with your schedule, that's great, too. But if you're in a situation when you have to PuG replacements, or set rules for new folks that fill in when your friends who have agreed to your rules can't make it that night, why would you want to introduce a contention point that serves no design purpose? It's going to be PuGs (read: the vast majority of players) that this affects the most.

This isn't a new concern or one that affects dungeons exclusively. Suffice to say, if you pug that type of player, control them or kick them and pug a new one. Or just develop some leadership skills and control your group. Keep in mind that this type of content isn't meant to be pug friendly to begin with.

Either way, if you're not willing to invest the time to make your group succeed, don't be upset when it fails.

Again, like I've said already in this thread, if they designed talents decently, this wouldn't be an issue. But with their god awful talent design, the only thing this change does is cause problems. There's not a single positive element to this change, outside of giving inscriptionists a way to make money early in the expansion, and that's more a reflection of how badly they're handling professions than anything else.

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean you aren't exaggerating the implications. Without a 10s cast time, dropping tomes takes no longer than dropping a feast, and changing talents certainly doesn't take more than a second at most. Your crude examples of how tomes are going to ruin timed mythic runs have nothing to do with tomes themselves, only what happens when you have a disorganized and amateur group. If you want to do better, plan better.

These new tomes will be an inconvenience and gold sink, but that's about it. Everything else you wrote was simply aggrandizing to get the point across that you don't like this change. It's fine not to like it, but at least be realistic with your complaints.

[jettzypher]

Reagent bought from vendor at a set price =/= crafted item only available through one profession or at player-determined prices oh ah.

There's such a significant difference between those two things that you have to be joking... i mean c'mon now.

You are absolutely right. But the variable cost that is established by the market can easily be mitigated by putting in your own work on spending a little time farming the mats required on an alt with the profession to make them yourself. Suddenly, this requirement is no longer much of an issue.

I can understand the complications that some groups may face when dealing with this change. However, I think there's only a portion of the player-base that this will truly impact in a negative fashion. And for only a small period of time if it even does.

These new tomes will be an inconvenience and gold sink, but that's about it. Everything else you wrote was simply aggrandizing to get the point across that you don't like this change. It's fine not to like it, but at least be realistic with your complaints.

The most concise way to put it, Arch.