Does the 'LFR pays for Raid Development' argument make sense?

[stomination]

You disagreeing with them does not make them wrong. I am not saying WoD is the best expansion but neither do I consider it to that bad.

Them claiming something doesn't mean they are right as well.

[Shinv]

So your saying the multi-billion dollar company is lying about why LFR is around. Lying about budget and what its spent on....

You do realize thats illegal right? If there share holders go (Why the fuck are you spending $$$$$ on something that barely gets use) they CAN NOT lie about it.

Alright I'm finally back. OK I shouldn't say lie as in there's nothing to point towards a features success in participation but that participation metric is easy fixed by the devs through rewards. Just think about the course of ashran changes to get people in the door. I don't think they would straight lie but try to justify there expenses to the business people. The more I think about it I've come to a small realization I don't expect many of you to understand. The Devs are stuck in an odd position with stock holders where they have to justify fun with participation. Take a moment and really think about for a second. Do see the problem with that for running a game? I'll wait for a response I'm wondering if people come to the same conclusion I have.

[MoanaLisa]

It doesn't matter one damn bit whether or not anyone thinks the argument makes sense. Blizzard has said what they've said about it which is that the high levels of participation that LFR brings to raiding justifies more raid content than there would be otherwise.

If the additional development that raids receive were shifted toward providing another dozen dungeons per expansion the game would get along just fine.

[Osmeric]

Take a moment and really think about for a second. Do see the problem with that for running a game? I'll wait for a response I'm wondering if people come to the same conclusion I have.

It's bizarre that you (1) enjoy a game that exists because of the profit motive, and (2) bemoan that it must conform to the dictates of the profit motive.

It's as if you wanted to have your cake and eat it too.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Meanwhile more popular features get cut to rush out a raid tier. Looks to me like it does revolve around them.

What features got cut? Most of the feature in Warlord's weren't cut because of raiding. Warlord's had raid bosses and instances than mist. Warlord's lacked content because of poor management and having to train their new employees.

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I've played the game since vanilla - and gone from a serious progression raider to a casual player. I stopped serious raiding after ulduar and due to lack of time went casual. The argument about LFR is endless and I usually don't read those threads.

I've been in a casual friendly guild since WoTLK - one that has slowly withered away from 40 active players to 5 or so left. The impact of LFR on this demise would be somewhere between 0 and 0% - if has had NO impact on people in my guild leaving the game. If anything some probably stayed a bit longer.

As a casual player I got legendary cloaks on 4 toons during MoP, I have the legendary ring on one toon and three others are some way through the HFC part but Im sorta bored with finishing them - mainly becuase then leveling the ring beyond ilvl 735 is painful in terms of time. This was done solely on LFR.

As an LFR player (which I do because my job means I cant predict when I have free time) I was annoyed LFR lost good trinkets and proper tier gear (but I understand the reason - but you could achieve the same outcome by different rules). I also liked world bosses dropping tier gear - it kept them relevant much longer. The world bosses in WoD were almost irrelevant in a few weeks.

If you want an alternative method to LFR then you need to look back to the burning crusade. The best gearing system for me was TBC where heroic dungeon badges unlocked raid quality gear. It took much longer to get than good raid guilds - but it still meant eventually you had reasonable gear. It was this reason alone that led 50% of players get into karazhan instead of the very small % who had killed a raid boss in Molten Core during Vanilla. For WoTLK, Blizzard's went 'um people like raiding so we'll make them easy' - so their access method was to make raids easy instead of giving an alternate gearing path (which eventually makes raids easier). And guess who complained about the alternative gearing method non-stop - the same people complaining about LFR. But it was the lack of alternative gearing that ultimately led to LFR. So if you want an alternative path into raiding that does not have an LFR give an alternative (but not easy) and slower gearing mechanism for raid quality gear.

We had that gearing system during wrath, cata, and mist. We lost that system in warlord's and look at subscribers. Do you have a source for 50% of the players base raiding Kara?

[Shinv]

It's bizarre that you (1) enjoy a game that exists because of the profit motive, and (2) bemoan that it must conform to the dictates of the profit motive.

It's as if you wanted to have your cake and eat it too.

You are so far off of what I'm hinting at as the problem that you clearly just chose to attack me without thought. Don't talk to me your a moron.

Infracted {ML}

[nekobaka]

Right. So any hint that that gravy train of unearned entitlement might come to an end causes an outpouring of angst.

Potentially when vocally the community stops defending the additional resources going into raiding. Even the Official forums still heavily defends it despite claiming to be for the majority. Of course most of those have shown themselves to be apart of the minority while hiding on alts.

So in that case likely never. Devs still listen to that group when they complain LFR is too easy and turns LFR into a wipe fest only to nerf it again when queues hit double that of Cata heroics. Has happened every raid tier since MoP. Tack that on as another thing devs are too stubborn about. Current dev team likes to listen when it follows their wishes and sticks their head in the ground until someone kicks them in the rear and then they drop some shit to shut people up. Time will tell if Legion is when the devs stop that BS.

What features got cut?

Post launch dungeons for the specific reference.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Potentially when vocally the community stops defending the additional resources going into raiding. Even the Official forums still heavily defends it despite claiming to be for the majority. Of course most of those have shown themselves to be apart of the minority while hiding on alts.

So in that case likely never. Devs still listen to that group when they complain LFR is too easy and turns LFR into a wipe fest only to nerf it again when queues hit double that of Cata heroics. Has happened every raid tier since MoP. Tack that on as another thing devs are too stubborn about. Current dev team likes to listen when it follows their wishes and sticks their head in the ground until someone kicks them in the rear and then they drop some shit to shut people up. Time will tell if Legion is when the devs stop that BS.

Post launch dungeons for the specific reference.

Raiders had less bosses than mist as well as less raid instances everyone got fucked over. It wasn't a heavy raid focus blizzard just fucked up warlord's.

New dungeons were cut because blizzard thought they weren't worth the investment. We're getting looking for raid and new dungeons in legion. We got new dungeons and looking for raid in cataclysm. Blizzard thought they could replace dungeons with scenarios but it wasn't enough. I don't what their reasoning was for continuing that trend in warlord's.

Blizzard didn't cut them to make room for looking for raid but because they thought there roles could be filled by something else.

[Osmeric]

Time will tell if Legion is when the devs stop that BS.

Legion is where they have their big, and probably last, chance to snare an influx of new players (from the movie). So, I expect management to get really hardnosed and nasty about devs serving their own egos instead of the needs of their employer, especially after the big retention disappointment that was WoD.

[primalmatter]

Legion is where they have their big, and probably last, chance to snare an influx of new players (from the movie). So, I expect management to get really hardnosed and nasty about devs serving their own egos instead of the needs of their employer, especially after the big retention disappointment that was WoD.

Do you not see quick gearing from lfr is counter productive to that?

[Jtbrig7390]

Do you not see quick gearing from lfr is counter productive to that?

I don't know what game your playing but gearing in LFR is not quick on any scale even more so compared to pvp and TJ.

I can get full 675+ from TJ in just a few hours and full 700 in pvp in just a few hours. LFR has the same drop chance as NM+ raiding so if your going to say one is quick gearing then so is the others.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Do you not see quick gearing from lfr is counter productive to that?

Not if the vast majority of people running looking for raid aren't going to move on to higher difficulties. It gives casual a gear path they normally wouldn't have on top of world content giving them decent reward as well.

If most of the players running looking for raid quit after finishing it. Blizzard would have removed it but they're bringing into a new expansion and undoing some of the changes made in warlord's to gut it.

[primalmatter]

I don't know what game your playing but gearing in LFR is not quick on any scale even more so compared to pvp and TJ.

I can get full 675+ from TJ in just a few hours and full 700 in pvp in just a few hours. LFR has the same drop chance as NM+ raiding so if your going to say one is quick gearing then so is the others.

They are I agree that all those examples show a flaw in the current end game but lets say a person only lfrs. Can they not complete almost half their gearing process in the first week by dropping coins in it?

It isn't the mode i mind but the effect such abundance of gear has,

Why get the garrison set for example if all of its parts are weaker then lfr gear yet require investment?

[Osmeric]

Do you not see quick gearing from lfr is counter productive to that?

Useless gear from LFR is far more counterproductive.

In Legion, they appear to be trying to make the gear from LFR more relevant. For example, we have hints they are bringing tier/trinkets back to LFR. This will make the step up to Normal mode less of a problem. They're also reducing PvP welfare gear, which was much easier to get than LFR gear. (The impact this will have on PvP participation will have to be watched and may be serious.)

[primalmatter]

Useless gear from LFR is far more counterproductive.

In Legion, they appear to be trying to make the gear from LFR more relevant. For example, we have hints they are bringing tier/trinkets back to LFR. This will make the step up to Normal mode less of a problem. They're also reducing PvP welfare gear, which was much easier to get than LFR gear. (The impact this will have on PvP participation will have to be watched and may be serious.)

True but is it needed? Don't just give a snap answer either but think about it. What is the point of making the world quest system and the rewards tied to rep,boss dungeons, and reputation from the guild hall?

Is lfr really the best vehicle to allow people to skip over content? Would it not be better to move the tier bonus onto the guild halls rewards?

If you want a longer end game shouldn't a over rewarding lfr be something you don't want?

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No.

/10char

I don't see how you wouldn't.. you would be coin capped by the time lfr comes out.

[Osmeric]

Is lfr really the best vehicle to allow people to skip over content? Would it not be better to move the tier bonus onto the guild halls rewards?

I suspect there's an audience for which LFR is the appropriate kind of content, but it may be smaller than the one LFR is being sold to now. It's probably cheaper to make LFR than to add a totally different content type with the same level of rewards.

[primalmatter]

I suspect there's an audience for which LFR is the appropriate kind of content, but it may be smaller than the one LFR is being sold to now. It's probably cheaper to make LFR than to add a totally different content type with the same level of rewards.

They did make that though... they spent a lot of time making it the focus of the expansion. I just can't see the benefit of throwing that all under the bus. They even touched up old CM models to make the gear look attractive. I just don't get the... celebration that lfr will once more become the only avenue to progress for the non raiding player.

[stomination]

I don't know what game your playing but gearing in LFR is not quick on any scale even more so compared to pvp and TJ.

I can get full 675+ from TJ in just a few hours and full 700 in pvp in just a few hours. LFR has the same drop chance as NM+ raiding so if your going to say one is quick gearing then so is the others.

Once again lfr will be around before any TJ or timeless isle stuff come into affect for the year long drought. Stop focusing on just the last patch.

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I suspect there's an audience for which LFR is the appropriate kind of content, but it may be smaller than the one LFR is being sold to now. It's probably cheaper to make LFR than to add a totally different content type with the same level of rewards.

If they gave world content that gave the same gear as lfr which would you think would have more ppl doing if they had to choose one or the other?

[Osmeric]

They did make that though... they spent a lot of time making it the focus of the expansion. I just can't see the benefit of throwing that all under the bus. They even touched up old CM models to make the gear look attractive. I just don't get the... celebration that lfr will once more become the only avenue to progress for the non raiding player.

The marginal cost of adding LFR to a raid tier, once you have the other raid modes, is likely to be quite low. There's no new graphics or art to be created (the gear art in WoD LFR was reused from 5 mans, I think, with just recoloring), and no new mechanics. There's no great tuning needed either (beyond "nerf it until the bosses die"), and no concern for design oddities causing class stacking.

The major cost, I imagine, was the cost of engineering the LFR system itself, with queues and the like. But that's largely a sunk cost now.

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If they gave world content that gave the same gear as lfr which would you think would have more ppl doing if they had to choose one or the other?

That would depend on difficulty.

[Zantos]

The numbers were taken from the Wowhead stats that were based on sifting through the complete armory at the end of SoO.

I would be interested in a few pieces of information about this. How did they ensure that they saw only mains and not alts? What scale model did they use? Did they look at the dates that the raid was completed? IE obviously near the end would see a drastic increase in LFR participation purely from alts alone.

I will start by saying I loved LFR for my alts in MoP. Hated in WoD. Hoping for it to improve for alts in Legion.

To answer the OP, no. The game was at its peak before LFR was ever a thing. LFR wasn't a thing until the very end of cata, when the subs started dropping. I mean, lets be real here. Without raids, there is no PvE end game. Anyone at max would either PvP or quit. LFR doesn't justify raids. Needing something for the players to actually do at max level does. Wanting to keep money flowing into the game longer then 1 month subscription times does. Take out LFR, and raids will still be there. No matter what the ones who Love LFR, or blizzards PR talk says.

It would be pure suicide for a game like WoW to not have raids.Their PvP isn't the best, nor particularity well balanced. They have nothing outside of PvP like an Asian MMO would with cosmetic costumes. Raids are the reason WoW is around now. Without them, WoW would be dead. LFR has no impact on the importance of this fact.