Casualization is the biggest problem wow: True or false

[Tomana]

It's okay to not like it. That's not a problem either, that's just one of many human reactions. No design decision is 100% accepted or reviled by players, not even having your real name on the WoW forums - though I'm sure it was pretty close to 100% disliked.

Sure, but some of those decisions are much easier to defend than others. Depriving most players of any meaningful content is pretty hard to justify unless the person trying to do so is incredibly selfish.

[SoulSoBreezy]

It doesn't dismantle shit. It just points out what we've been saying all along. If every playstyle is ultimately a minority then the gross inequity that is raiding is made even more bare. Why should that particular one minority play style get all the time and resources and attention that it does?

You don't have to act so mad =P. But I'll try to tell you where I'm coming from.
Regarding raids, it's one of those obvious staples that came with MMOs back in 2004. It's one of those "things" you don't get rid of because it's symbolic of the game's identity. A few posters including maybe you seem to want to be rid of raiding, but I don't think removing one of these staple features would be all that great for the game. It's very defeatist to outright remove something, as opposed to trying to improve, reiterate and compromise.
If anything, if you're going to complain at least trumpet some useful suggestions. What would you do to fill in the gap? More of what we've got now?

[Seefer]

Sure, but some of those decisions are much easier to defend than others. Depriving most players of any meaningful content is pretty hard to justify unless the person trying to do so is incredibly selfish.

You make it sound like the most resources and time are spent on different raid difficulties which it is not, it is using the same resources and time as 1 difficulty and tuning things different..........most of their resources are spent designing the world and encounters out in it.

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You don't have to act so mad =P. But I'll try to tell you where I'm coming from.
Regarding raids, it's one of those obvious staples that came with MMOs back in 2004. It's one of those "things" you don't get rid of because it's symbolic of the game's identity. A few posters including maybe you seem to want to be rid of raiding, but I don't think removing one of these staple features would be all that great for the game. It's very defeatist to outright remove something, as opposed to trying to improve, reiterate and compromise.
If anything, if you're going to complain at least trumpet some useful suggestions. What would you do to fill in the gap? More of what we've got now?

He does want raiding gone, he has said so many times, damn near every time he posts it is to bash on raiding or raiders............so either yes he wants it gone or he is a troll one or the other.

[SoulSoBreezy]

Sure, but some of those decisions are much easier to defend than others. Depriving most players of any meaningful content is pretty hard to justify unless the person trying to do so is incredibly selfish.

You're sorta losing me on the context. Are we talking about removing LFR?

[Tomana]

You make it sound like the most resources and time are spent on different raid difficulties which it is not, it is using the same resources and time as 1 difficulty and tuning things different..........most of their resources are spent designing the world and encounters out in it.

Once the expansion is released, raids eat up the most resources. And yes, I agree that once a raid is done (chiefly, its assets), adapting them to another difficulty does not take that much resources.

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You're sorta losing me on the context. Are we talking about removing LFR?

I'm talking about dividing the playerbase vanilla- or BC-style, where you had "peasants" whose subs were financing raiding content for "masters".

[Seefer]

Once the expansion is released, raids eat up the most resources. And yes, I agree that once a raid is done (chiefly, its assets), adapting them to another difficulty does not take that much resources.

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I'm talking about dividing the playerbase vanilla- or BC-style, where you had "peasants" whose subs were financing raiding content for "masters".

They have the raids already made, so no it really doesn't take up hardly any resources at all, it's not like as an expansion goes on they are avidly making these new raids.

What is dividing the players is the players attitudes towards each other.........period, it isn't Blizzard or any content or anything like that.......the players are just assholes pure and simple it doesn't matter which side.

Also no the subs weren't paying for the raids and players weren't "peasants" players were players and enjoyed the stuff they had not thinking they were entitled to have things.

[SoulSoBreezy]

He does want raiding gone, he has said so many times, damn near every time he posts it is to bash on raiding or raiders............so either yes he wants it gone or he is a troll one or the other.

Gotcha. I peruse a lot of the more toxic threads here but I didn't have a solid on where @Glorious Leader came from.
Like, if you take the symbolic attachments away, raiding *is* a significant resource hog. The question though would be where design go from there?
A lot of existing features can be expanded on but it's hardly a 1:1 ratio, because that's not how game development works. I dislike analogies, but MMO design is like laying down railroad tracks (content) before the train (players) overshoot and fall off. Raiding is a strong centerpiece that helps stem the flow of *those kinds of players* from falling off.

[Tomana]

Also no the subs weren't paying for the raids and players weren't "peasants" players were players and enjoyed the stuff they had not thinking they were entitled to have things.

From a money standpoint, yes they were. They paid subs to pay for content they would not see and were handed leftovers in form of dailies and BGs. Until they realized that and started - gasp - demanding to get a return for their money. I mean, customer demand stuff for their money, what a shocker.

[SoulSoBreezy]

Once the expansion is released, raids eat up the most resources. And yes, I agree that once a raid is done (chiefly, its assets), adapting them to another difficulty does not take that much resources.

It's not quite that raids take up just manual resources, but because raids are at the top level of content, it influences everything else like the balancing of classes, forecasting pve progression outside of raiding, rewards management, questing, lore, and basically everything else that helps lead up to raiding, including all the "under the hood" infrastructure that supports it.

I'm talking about dividing the playerbase vanilla- or BC-style, where you had "peasants" whose subs were financing raiding content for "masters".

Yeah, totally lost me =).

[Glorious Leader]

You don't have to act so mad =P. But I'll try to tell you where I'm coming from.
Regarding raids, it's one of those obvious staples that came with MMOs back in 2004. It's one of those "things" you don't get rid of because it's symbolic of the game's identity. A few posters including maybe you seem to want to be rid of raiding, but I don't think removing one of these staple features would be all that great for the game. It's very defeatist to outright remove something, as opposed to trying to improve, reiterate and compromise.
If anything, if you're going to complain at least trumpet some useful suggestions. What would you do to fill in the gap? More of what we've got now?

Unfortunately it's precisely this kind of thinking that keeps the genre stale and unappealing. It's exactly why MMOs will never be a popular thing again cause the conventions demand the game remains mired in 1999.

[lolcats121]

Nope, lack of content was the reason warlords of draenor failed. They promised so much but gave so little.

[Glorious Leader]

It's not quite that raids take up just manual resources, but because raids are at the top level of content, it influences everything else like the balancing of classes, forecasting pve progression outside of raiding, rewards management, questing, lore, and basically everything else that helps lead up to raiding, including all the "under the hood" infrastructure that supports it.
.

That's where the disconnect is. The game ultimately revolves around raiding from a developer stand point but is somehow never responsible for anything that ultimately drives player subs away. Of course what players actually do is another matter entirely and apparently quite removed from developer cares.

[Tomana]

It's not quite that raids take up just manual resources, but because raids are at the top level of content, it influences everything else like the balancing of classes, forecasting pve progression outside of raiding, rewards management, questing, lore, and basically everything else that helps lead up to raiding, including all the "under the hood" infrastructure that supports it.

Yes that's a major issue as well. All classes are balanced around raiding, because heaven forbid there is a too large discrepancy.
Interestingly enough, in vanilla, the gap was much bigger and that didn't see to annoy the said raiders.

[SoulSoBreezy]

Yes that's a major issue as well. All classes are balanced around raiding, because heaven forbid there is a too large discrepancy.
Interestingly enough, in vanilla, the gap was much bigger and that didn't see to annoy the said raiders.

Tell that to a non-warrior tank =(.
And raids back then were new but not very challenging at all. The pain was in the logistics of getting your team attuned and armed with the right resistance gear.

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Unfortunately it's precisely this kind of thinking that keeps the genre stale and unappealing. It's exactly why MMOs will never be a popular thing again cause the conventions demand the game remains mired in 1999.

Nice, dodging my attempt to get usable feedback from you =).
WoW's popularity was/is an anomaly; that's pretty well understood with Blizzard as well as the rest of the industry.

[zorkuus]

The only true hope is to get vanilla servers and restart development using the 1st method after BC.

Play the entirety of WoW all over again? I don't think that is going to hit 12 million subs but keep dreaming the good dream.

[Glorious Leader]

Tell that to a non-warrior tank =(.
And raids back then were new but not very challenging at all. The pain was in the logistics of getting your team attuned and armed with the right resistance gear.

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Nice, dodging my attempt to get usable feedback from you =).
WoW's popularity was/is an anomaly; that's pretty well understood with Blizzard as well as the rest of the industry.

I agree. Every wow clone has followed the raid or die end game model and not a single one has generated the level of popularity wow did. Maybe it's not that great? Maybe it's not that necessary?

[Seefer]

I agree. Every wow clone has followed the raid or die end game model and not a single one has generated the level of popularity wow did. Maybe it's not that great? Maybe it's not that necessary?

Actually a lot of them haven't you just haven't heard of them because they die off quickly because people get bored.

[SoulSoBreezy]

I agree. Every wow clone has followed the raid or die end game model and not a single one has generated the level of popularity wow did. Maybe it's not that great? Maybe it's not that necessary?

Wow, I really am impressed that your narrative is so single-minded. You're a train! =D
Here's a kind-of strawman though - didn't these wow clones also follow many tropes like leveling, learning skills, talents, dungeons, quests and grouping? Why aren't the replications of all these systems to blame for the lack of success?

[Glorious Leader]

Wow, I really am impressed that your narrative is so single-minded. You're a train! =D
Here's a kind-of strawman though - didn't these wow clones also follow many tropes like leveling, learning skills, talents, dungeons, quests and grouping? Why aren't the replications of all these systems to blame for the lack of success?

That's a nice sidebar but it misses the point. Regardless of what you say about other systems RAIDING was clearly not enough to generate the sub numbers in all those other games. We should.then ask ourselves how.necessary is raiding to the success or for that matter the foundation of an mmo? The belief that you just have to have it is unfounded.

[SoulSoBreezy]

That's a nice sidebar but it misses the point. Regardless of what you say about other systems RAIDING was clearly not enough to generate the sub numbers in all those other games. We should.then ask ourselves how.necessary is raiding to the success or for that matter the foundation of an mmo? The belief that you just have to have it is unfounded.

But you still haven't addressed the critical point - what would take its (raiding) place, when the aim of WoW is to engage a wide array of players (including raiders)?