[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Teleros]

As an addendum to the utility comment, what do we have (or need to have) for people to want a Ret in their mythic+ dungeons (in the same way that DKs are chosen for their grip or warriors for their stuns/bladestorm)?

Blinding Light seems like a good candidate for utility here. Change the incapacitate to a stun (not that OP given how many other classes/specs have similar AE stuns) and hey presto.

Whilst we're on the topic, make Repentance into an instant cast, CD-less spell. Might make that whole row more competitive.

[Ulthane]

Ah okay I see how you're using conviction now, I had it a bit off. Also please see edits on my last post if you haven't already.

Will do! Just at work so I'll get to it when I can

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@Bolt66 The thing is so you could save the proc or be more tactical with it. Example.

You are now at 0 Holy power, you have a dp proc, you have Judgment on target with 2 stacks.

You build 5 HP 5 Conviction, your DP is still up due to proc window. Unleash 3 Judgments.

The scenario can be swapped for aoe.

DP up, build hp and conviction, spam ds.

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The AoW proc for Selfless Healer, stable greater blessings, healing Storm being naturally improved due to dual proc dt hits. You naturally bring a little more utility than right now.

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In this scenario you get the following.
DP: you can better choose how to use the proc, because it won't vanish so fast you get to make a gameplay choice of use it instantly or save it for burst. If they apply a RPPM to DP it would be amazing and would compete with SW

Sanctified Wrath: would enable you to quickly get 15 stacks and have full debuffs on 1 target before unleashing max power sw TV spam.

You either get a massive berserk rush on both aoe or st or you get a proc that allows you to get small burst windows or quick hits in depending on situation. So that's why dp lasts 1 minute.

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You aren't the only one they are ignoring. Mistweavers,Brewmaster and other classes to so let's not go down the"Woe is me path."


To elaborate on our generators. Crusader Strike(If it's formula is just based on Weapon damage) should at least be close to 300% weapon damage.

Exactly something I've pointed out regarding CS damage.

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@Bolt66 in addition more leverage on Greater blessings means this
-Swap might to who ever will get most use for it at a time.
-Swap kings to the tank that needs it most
-Swap wisdom to a healer that is in desperate need of mana.

Removing the swap restrictions, having it at 1 each means you could very easily accommodate the raid at any given moment.

AoW Selfless Healer function means a strong fol when needed for clutch

You could try and AoE to whore healing Storm.

Lay on Hands

Sooo ya!

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I left out a couple utility things due to being pressed on time but you get it.

[Bolt66]

Will do! Just at work so I'll get to it when I can

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@Bolt66 The thing is so you could save the proc or be more tactical with it. Example.

You are now at 0 Holy power, you have a dp proc, you have Judgment on target with 2 stacks.

You build 5 HP 5 Conviction, your DP is still up due to proc window. Unleash 3 Judgments.

The scenario can be swapped for aoe.

DP up, build hp and conviction, spam ds.

- - - Updated - - -

The AoW proc for Selfless Healer, stable greater blessings, healing Storm being naturally improved due to dual proc dt hits. You naturally bring a little more utility than right now.

- - - Updated - - -

In this scenario you get the following.
DP: you can better choose how to use the proc, because it won't vanish so fast you get to make a gameplay choice of use it instantly or save it for burst. If they apply a RPPM to DP it would be amazing and would compete with SW

Sanctified Wrath: would enable you to quickly get 15 stacks and have full debuffs on 1 target before unleashing max power sw TV spam.

You either get a massive berserk rush on both aoe or st or you get a proc that allows you to get small burst windows or quick hits in depending on situation. So that's why dp lasts 1 minute.

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Exactly something I've pointed out regarding CS damage.

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@Bolt66 in addition more leverage on Greater blessings means this
-Swap might to who ever will get most use for it at a time.
-Swap kings to the tank that needs it most
-Swap wisdom to a healer that is in desperate need of mana.

Removing the swap restrictions, having it at 1 each means you could very easily accommodate the raid at any given moment.

AoW Selfless Healer function means a strong fol when needed for clutch

You could try and AoE to whore healing Storm.

Lay on Hands

Sooo ya!

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I left out a couple utility things due to being pressed on time but you get it.

@Ulthane thanks for the quick reply, makes for great lunch break reading

That DP scenario makes sense and it would be good for phase transitions. As long as we're not consistently sitting on the proc for long periods of time, as that's one of my issues with the current DP and the damage window. If I have an exciting proc with weak auras and sound effects, I kinda wanna use it now!

As for utility, I can get behind BoK and BoW as meaningful utility if they weren't on all the time. Using BoK as a more potent Sac and BoW as an old timey innervate would be good skills to have. We can bubble a tank without making him lose aggro and we can lay on hands a healer's mana pool. I think those are things that are noticeable in a raid or harder dungeon, but the trickle mechanics of the current greater blessings (I think) would be ignored by most people again. More like nice to have things but not bring the Ret for this.

I don't see BoM having a very large % since it's passive damage. I'm also still not a fan of juggling someone else's buffs to make my own damage better (if you're keeping the version where we get credit).

As I said before, your version is still loads better than beta but I still don't feel like we're bringing that much utility to the table. We have a lot of those tools right now and they're not winning any raid utility popularity contests. I think (@Teleros please feel free to chime in too) Ret needs a motif outside of extra damage/healing/stuns, but maybe I'm out to lunch (well technically I am at this very moment ).

[Teleros]

I think (@Teleros please feel free to chime in too) Ret needs a motif outside of extra damage/healing/stuns

Probably right. The trouble with Ret in terms of its utility is that it tends to fall into one of three categories:

1. Bland (GBoK / GBoW)
2. Borderline useless (healing in Mythic dungeons/raids etc)
3. Not unique (BoF/BoP)

You don't really want to bring a Ret to a CM / Mythic dungeon because of its off-healing :P . You want to bring a Ret because... why exactly?

[Ulthane]

@Bolt66 the beauty of the DP proc window is you can save it or use it right away depending on what you want to do or how the situation plays out.

Given its only 1 might instead of x3 I can see it being passive 30% at most. But not less than 15%

[Deleted]

I love how you rets hate the class so much that you're basically redesigning your own fantasy class.

I'd tell you you're wasting your time and you already have what you're going to get, but it feels too much like kicking an enthusiastic puppy.

So I won't.

[Teleros]

So I won't.

Phew. I'd hate to have you tell us all that stuff. That'd be just terrible.

[Deleted]

I love how you rets hate the class so much that you're basically redesigning your own fantasy class.

I'd tell you you're wasting your time and you already have what you're going to get, but it feels too much like kicking an enthusiastic puppy.

So I won't.

I love how you non-Rets play such boring classes that you have to come and see what the cool kids are talking about.

[Ulthane]

I love how you rets hate the class so much that you're basically redesigning your own fantasy class.

I'd tell you you're wasting your time and you already have what you're going to get, but it feels too much like kicking an enthusiastic puppy.

So I won't.

1. This does not pertain to the discussion.
2. It's called feedback, we can discuss with each other here and relay it to feedback forums.
3. Why would you even bother to post this other than to be an ass. If you want to validate yourself at the expense of others you came into the wrong neighborhood.
4. The struggle must be real on tumblr.

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@Bolt66 @Teleros I will say I feel with what I put on the feedback forums the one thing we are missing utility wise is Blessing of Sacrifice. Quite honestly that ability alone would sync with Equality. Probably the only non bad way to do it imo.

[Deleted]

1. This does not pertain to the discussion.
2. It's called feedback, we can discuss with each other here and relay it to feedback forums.
3. Why would you even bother to post this other than to be an ass. If you want to validate yourself at the expense of others you came into the wrong neighborhood.
4. The struggle must be real on tumblr.

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@Bolt66 @Teleros I will say I feel with what I put on the feedback forums the one thing we are missing utility wise is Blessing of Sacrifice. Quite honestly that ability alone would sync with Equality. Probably the only non bad way to do it imo.

Don't get me wrong, your ideas are great and it's always good reading them. Long may your enthusiasm continue. The problem is, while Blizzard probably does design by Committee, none of us are on it. 3 months before release, they aren't looking for redesign suggestions. They just want to show off whats coming to their little beta club, so those invited feel all exclusive and get all excited amongst their friends. (Yes, no invite this time - yes, I'm probably bitter). Betas are nothing but PR tools for Blizzard, have been for years.

But anyway, I'm being a fatalistic asshole right now, and I'm very, very sorry. Keep up the good work.

[Ulthane]

Don't get me wrong, your ideas are great and it's always good reading them. Long may your enthusiasm continue. The problem is, while Blizzard probably does design by Committee, none of us are on it. 3 months before release, they aren't looking for redesign suggestions. They just want to show off whats coming to their little beta club, so those invited feel all exclusive and get all excited amongst their friends. (Yes, no invite this time - yes, I'm probably bitter). Betas are nothing but PR tools for Blizzard, have been for years.

But anyway, I'm being a fatalistic asshole right now, and I'm very, very sorry. Keep up the good work.

-gives you a cookie- I completely understand why you would feel that way. Which is why the feedback given is trying to adhere to current design as much as possible. Judgment still being a debuff but it's interaction slightly inverted.

Blizzard isn't going to listen to a 100% overhaul, but I feel they would listen to something that fits their design. The fact they have a feedback forum means it's there for a reason.

[Teleros]

3 months before release, they aren't looking for redesign suggestions.

Not major ones anyway. Not sure Ulthane's stuff is that bad though .

But anyway, I'm being a fatalistic asshole right now, and I'm very, very sorry. Keep up the good work.

TBH I agree, I don't think Judgement will be fixed, or mobility, or AE damage, or... or... or...

Gotta keep trying though.

= + =
@Ulthane - Should check your PMs some time BTW .

[ruiizu]

Did not know Wisdom triggers Pure of Heart. I can pretty much guarantee that won't list if blessings remain how they are on Beta atm (right now you can only have 1 of each up as of the last patch, no notes about it). That means putting Wisdom on yourself = effectively immune to poison and disease (Rogue, Death Knight, and Feral druid are going to be hating you). Too bad almost all debuffs are magic or physical, but that's still nifty I guess.

[Ulthane]

Did not know Wisdom triggers Pure of Heart. I can pretty much guarantee that won't list if blessings remain how they are on Beta atm (right now you can only have 1 of each up as of the last patch, no notes about it). That means putting Wisdom on yourself = effectively immune to poison and disease (Rogue, Death Knight, and Feral druid are going to be hating you). Too bad almost all debuffs are magic or physical, but that's still nifty I guess.

Wait so it's only 1 of each regardless n? No 3x might?

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@Teleros I replied, pretty good stuff.

[Teleros]

Wait so it's only 1 of each regardless n? No 3x might?

Might have been OP :P ...

Edit: Weird, I've not had it come through at my end yet O_o ...

[Deleted]

Might have been OP :P ...

Edit: Weird, I've not had it come through at my end yet O_o ...

No, just tested it on beta - can still use multiple GBoM.

[Ulthane]

No, just tested it on beta - can still use multiple GBoM.

Kks, not at home else I would have checked.

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Might have been OP :P ...

Edit: Weird, I've not had it come through at my end yet O_o ...

Strange cus I read the whole thing and really liked it

[Teleros]

Strange cus I read the whole thing and really liked it

If you were quoting it you probably went over the character limit for PMs, so it wouldn't have been sent.

Can't think of much else as to why a reply wouldn't come through though .

Glad you liked it though .

[Taeldorian]

Blizzard's silence on ret issues makes me sad. But they can be planning a spec rework in next builds... Hell no, they're ignoring us for sure. Let me live with my negativity.

Other classes get this treatment. I don't think we're getting ignored it's more like they're reading 6-10+ pages of feedback everyday so they don't get to respond or don't respond to everything. Maybe they're taking notes, who knows. Either way we'll have to wait for the next build as long as it has significant class changes (last build hardly had any) to see if our feedback is being taken into consideration. Still, no need to say this kinda stuff. We most certainly aren't the only class like this and we don't know how they work with feedback.

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Might have been OP :P ...

Edit: Weird, I've not had it come through at my end yet O_o ...

I hope that's actually how it works. Not having 3 mights up means we won't be balanced around having 3 up most likely which is fantastic. Less worry about our dps going down the drain because of this. Still dislike blessings, but this would help a bit.

[Ulthane]

If you were quoting it you probably went over the character limit for PMs, so it wouldn't have been sent.

Can't think of much else as to why a reply wouldn't come through though .

Glad you liked it though .

That would explain it hahah

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Other classes get this treatment. I don't think we're getting ignored it's more like they're reading 6-10+ pages of feedback everyday so they don't get to respond or don't respond to everything. Maybe they're taking notes, who knows. Either way we'll have to wait for the next build as long as it has significant class changes (last build hardly had any) to see if our feedback is being taken into consideration. Still, no need to say this kinda stuff. We most certainly aren't the only class like this and we don't know how they work with feedback.

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I hope that's actually how it works. Not having 3 mights up means we won't be balanced around having 3 up most likely which is fantastic. Less worry about our dps going down the drain because of this. Still dislike blessings, but this would help a bit.

Exactly what I'm hopeful for. Cus the 5 pages I wrote for them yesterday would help tons.