"Basic Income" is a terrible idea

[Dug]

It's worked out great. We used to have 97% farmers, now we have closer to 3% than 97% working as farmers (I have no idea on actual figures). How did nearly the entire population transition to other kinds of work without the doom and gloom scenarios being put forth in this thread? It's like people have no concept for what jobs and money are, and don't understand that as long as we keep making enough food for everyone, we are all fine.

Well no humans would always "work" but it would be a different form than we know it today. No longer doing manual labor or doing trivial things but working on like... art.. music etc.

[Endus]

2) Theoretically there may be some cost savings of administration, but I highly doubt the government is going to cut government jobs in social benefits programs. Its something that they would EXPAND with a "basic income" program. You think they would entirely replace welfare with "basic income."? Especially if the proposed basic welfare would be less than what people are already receiving on welfare and other social benefits programs.

This is the kind of thing a conspiracy theorist would come up with.

The government doesn't create jobs just for giggles. It creates jobs because it has work that needs to be done. The administration of a Basic Income system is far less than the current complex interconnection of disparate systems, for a host of reasons. There is no reason they would need to increase hiring.

3) This is your problem right here. The bolded section. Who are you to decide who is or isn't paying "enough" taxes? What if that laywer's chosen lifestyle requires that they make 200k a year to pay for it? You think you (or anyone else) has any right to dictate or deem what lifestyle they choose to live as necessary or not?

I am nobody.

The duly elected government, on the other hand, is precisely the group that is entitled to make exactly that determination.

Yes, I absolutely think that government has that right. As does basically everyone else. Otherwise, you're literally arguing for a stateless anarchy, where anyone can do whatever heinous things they like, and unless you're strong enough to kill them yourself, you don't get to complain.

I'm afraid your liberal mindset needs to change. Because the moment when one group starts deciding how much another group is paying in taxes is "fair" or not, it runs a slippery slope into dictatorship and personal freedoms being taken away.

That's not a "liberal mindset". It has nothing to do with liberals or conservatives at all. It has to do with recognizing the need for governance, itself, either conservatively-oriented or liberal.

[Dug]

doesn't seem to be the case in many developed countries.

Developed countries still have to work though. It was just a joke but if you don't actually have to do "work" like 8-5 X amount of time a week that frees up a lot of time to pursue other ventures.

[Tyrianth]

doesn't seem to be the case in many developed countries.

Actually that strengthens his case. Developed countries have low child birth but high rates of employment, under developed countries have employment rates and high instances of child birth.

[Theinquisition]

Cheers for Obama!!! I thought the push back is that its much higher since people no longer look for jobs.

My argument about the 5% unemployment rate is that many are underemployed. Again working minimum wage job (difference of opinion to many), working multiple jobs, not getting enough hours for benefits and so on.

that very well may be the case.

Look, there are jobs out there, hell I'm going to be working at a job fair over the next few weeks for the company I work for, we literally have thousands of jobs, good paying jobs, that we are having a hard time filling (17.50 an hour going up).

that's just my company.

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The official measure of unemployment is 5%. The real measure is significantly higher. None of this mentions the quality of those jobs or what kind of living standard they can afford people. Automation does necessarily just immediately unemploy people it has the impact of lowering qol form people who remain employed and also has the effect of crushing any thought they may have had about demanding a better living.

Other sectors are growing. just because one field is going down doesn't mean others aren't growing.

[Tyrianth]

that very well may be the case.

Look, there are jobs out there, hell I'm going to be working at a job fair over the next few weeks for the company I work for, we literally have thousands of jobs, good paying jobs, that we are having a hard time filling (17.50 an hour going up).

that's just my company.

Thousands of jobs for millions of people? In a world where millions of jobs will be lost to automation.

[Gamdwelf]

LOL

dude, it's not my fault that you are unhappy with your life.

It shouldn't be my responsibility to support you, especially if you have a self-defeating attitude. Find something that motivates you and go hustle for a dollar.

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what makes you think the population will continue to rise? Birthrates in developed countries are way down.

But I as a tax payer have to support your education? Even with your suicidal additude joining the military.

[Shadowmelded]

Other sectors are growing. just because one field is going down doesn't mean others aren't growing.

I think the argument being put forth is that the fields that are growing don't employ nearly the same amount of people (the Google example being relevant) due to technology.

[Tijuana]

Well no humans would always "work" but it would be a different form than we know it today. No longer doing manual labor or doing trivial things but working on like... art.. music etc.

So, exactly like what happened when the industrial revolution happened. We started with 97% working as farmers, then they all transitioned in to non-farming jobs, with the exception of a few.

I would also like to challenge this notion that robots can soon replace all manual labor. You guys have no clue how far away robotics is from doing the job of say, a construction worker. Sure, it's easy to make one that can bag french fries. But you won't see skilled labor jobs being replaced by robots any time soon.

[Theinquisition]

Lol there is a damn good chance I pay more than you a year in taxes. Those of us who are for Basic Income don't live our heads burried in the sand.

Anything is possible, I just broke 6 figures this year. I'm by no means rich, but when I get a Tax bill, on top of what I already paid, and get told I make too much for stuff like the EITC, it's irritating.

I'm all for systems that help people when they are down, but I don't like the idea of direct cash assistance coming from my hand to another without some sort of work from the other party.

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But I as a tax payer have to support your education? Even with your suicidal additude joining the military.

You're trying to hard, I haven't cut myself on your edges yet.

[Gamdwelf]

the irony is that he's trying to tell me I was a "slave for the gov't" while complaining the he doesn't barely have the motivation to wake up in the morning to do anything, much less get a job.

As I said before though, corporations are only as greedy as we let them be. Don't like a company, don't shop with them, its that simple.

But the pay and benefits are so good if I can stay long enough to get another position in the same company that I like it's going to much better in the long run than being a quitter.

[Paranoid Android]

that very well may be the case.

Look, there are jobs out there, hell I'm going to be working at a job fair over the next few weeks for the company I work for, we literally have thousands of jobs, good paying jobs, that we are having a hard time filling (17.50 an hour going up).

that's just my company.

May I ask what are requirements for those jobs?

[Theinquisition]

Thousands of jobs for millions of people? In a world where millions of jobs will be lost to automation.

That's just my company, there are lots of jobs to be had out there, especially in the service and financial industry.

As I said before, this isn't a new problem, the world faced similar issues when the steam engine or the cotton gin was invented.

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But I as a tax payer have to support your education? Even with your suicidal additude joining the military.

also, hey endus I see you're in this thread, you gonna moderate this?

[Tyrianth]

Anything is possible, I just broke 6 figures this year. I'm by no means rich, but when I get a Tax bill, on top of what I already paid, and get told I make too much for stuff like the EITC, it's irritating.

I'm all for systems that help people when they are down, but I don't like the idea of direct cash assistance coming from my hand to another without some sort of work from the other party.

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You're trying to hard, I haven't cut myself on your edges yet.

And when there is no work for other people to do? Sure there will be jobs, but it will be fraction of the amount jobs we have now.

You keep saying "the market will evolve, the market will evolve". But don't put forth any idea on HOW it will evolve to accomodate the mass unemployment rates. Not all of us are content with burying our heads in the sand and risking everything to faith.

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That's just my company, there are lots of jobs to be had out there, especially in the service and financial industry.

The service industry? Those will be the first jobs to be automated. Hell service position automation has ALREADY begun and automation is only in its infancy...

[Gamdwelf]

That's just my company, there are lots of jobs to be had out there, especially in the service and financial industry.

As I said before, this isn't a new problem, the world faced similar issues when the steam engine or the cotton gin was invented.

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also, hey endus I see you're in this thread, you gonna moderate this?

Who do you think pays for the GI Bill? Taxpayers like me.

[Tijuana]

And when there is no work for other people to do? Sure there will be jobs, but it will be fraction of the amount jobs we have now.

You keep saying "the market will evolve, the market will evolve". But don't put forth any idea on HOW it will evolve to accomodate the mass unemployment rates. Not all of us are content with burying our heads in the sand and risking everything to faith.

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The service industry? Those will be the first jobs to be automated. Hell service position automation has ALREADY begun and automation is only in its infancy...

The market doesn't need to change at all. Jobs are created by people who think putting other people on a task will bring in more money than they paid them for that task. It's really that simple. We had no idea what all those farmers would do for a living after the industrial revolution yet, the market found places for all of them. Those who fear that somehow half the current work force will be jobless really just don't understand, at a fundamental level, how the economy works.

[Theinquisition]

May I ask what are requirements for those jobs?

It really depends.

Some are entry level, those start at 15.50 an hour. Some work experience is preferred, but all that's really required is a GED and a clean record.

Some are more specialized, those start at 17.50 an hour, demand a GEd and some work experience, and the applicant has to pass a licensing exam (P&C for example)

some are above entry level and start at 19.50 and make commissions (the dept I just transferred from) hourly and commissions tighter, I was pushing 28$ an hour.) they require a licensing exam, GED, degree preferred, and significant work experience.

there's plenty more than are a bit more specialized, and the pay varies. you're talking about lots of job openings though.

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And when there is no work for other people to do? Sure there will be jobs, but it will be fraction of the amount jobs we have now.

You keep saying "the market will evolve, the market will evolve". But don't put forth any idea on HOW it will evolve to accomodate the mass unemployment rates. Not all of us are content with burying our heads in the sand and risking everything to faith.

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The service industry? Those will be the first jobs to be automated. Hell service position automation has ALREADY begun and automation is only in its infancy...

Depends on what industry, I was talking about service positions in the finance industry.

[Glorious Leader]

It's worked out great. We used to have 97% farmers, now we have closer to 3% than 97% working as farmers (I have no idea on actual figures). How did nearly the entire population transition to other kinds of work without the doom and gloom scenarios being put forth in this thread? It's like people have no concept for what jobs and money are, and don't understand that as long as we keep making enough food for everyone, we are all fine.

They didn't. When you have the official figures come back.

[Theinquisition]

Who do you think pays for the GI Bill? Taxpayers like me.

Would you like a cookie?

[Tijuana]

They didn't. When you have the official figures come back.

Wow, 97% of the world population died and I didn't notice? GG...