Heads Roll at Baylor University Over Sexual-Assault Reports

[Pangean]

But Baylor didn't handle it - If instead the state would have been expected to deal with it, they would have been forced to do something!
Also, many 'victims' (i refuse to call one a victim who does not) do not report to the police, because they reported it to the college instead - they treat it as if they are comparable institutions - There are real rapists, who were not prosecuted, because the victims did not fucking report it!

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College's are some of the safest places in the world - Whatever they were doing 5 years ago was completely fine.

Uh no. Sex crimes have been a problem on campuses far longer than 5 years ago if that is your point.

[Deleted]

Uh no. Sex crimes have been a problem on campuses far longer than 5 years ago if that is your point.

If by problem, you mean least likely place in society for them to happen, yes.
The fact is, there is no rape epidemic or even a fucking problem - The gross overreach and absurd stretch of the Title IX is entirely unwarranted - There is no problem requiring 'aggressive' solution.

[Pangean]

Baylor is exactly the reason why uni should not be involved at all. Because they have interests in the cases not existing, whereas the state doesn't. If they can solve these things in petit comité, they will easily sweep any wrongdoing under the rug.
I'm arguing that the state attitude is gross because it leaves the cases to other institutions, so the authorities are more relaxed about it. The entire thinking process behind this outsourcing is what corrupts both institutions: the university and the authorities.

Yeah that's bullshit. The state in the past has been an accessory to the actions of the university in covering up said activities.And where is this nonsense that the state is leaving up to the university to deal with it. All cases are then reported to the state for criminal actions. What the university does, does not replace the criminal process. It is in addition to it.

[Ripster42]

As I said, Baylor is a mess and should face heavy repercussions. Id say it should be almost as severe as what happened to Penn State (without removing the wins cause that's a silly thing).

Also it took this article to get the whole thing started: http://www.texasmonthly.com/article/silence-at-baylor/

Thank you Texas Journalism.

I'm not sure they shouldn't get the SMU penalty, especially if all that happens to the AD is that he's made chancellor. It's clear they aren't responsible enough to run intercollegiate sports. The AD-now-chancellor is the guy they picked right after the murder cover-up that didn't result in anyone in trouble but the murderer.

[Pangean]

I think the police dep, needs to be fucked a fair bit more - Still Title nine should require all college administrators to forward any complaints to the police, and mandate all support staff always instruct any students to report it - because otherwise you get those 'unfortunate' instances where a man was expelled for raping a woman, then as she did not file it with the police, he went on to rape some more and kill a girl - because apparently, they don't stop being rapist after being expelled, fancy that.

I believe that in most cases they do report it to the authorities if they believe something has occurred. If they don't then I see no problem mandating it.

[Crissi]

I'm not sure they shouldn't get the SMU penalty, especially if all that happens to the AD is that he's made chancellor. It's clear they aren't responsible enough to run intercollegiate sports. The AD-now-chancellor is the guy they picked right after the murder cover-up that didn't result in anyone in trouble but the murderer.

SMU's punishment didnt even fit the crime. NCAA has backed away form the "death penalty' because of what it does to your program long term. it basically killed SMU for a decade. So while it may be more appropriate here because covering up rapes > covering up bribes, it likely wont happen.

What absolutely needs to happen is the AD fired, Starr fired, Briles fired, and the OC / DC and all assistant coaches for the football team fired.

[Pangean]

Your expectations don't need to be met. And, as it is, they are unproductive. See this very OP.


I think this process is entirely corrupt. But I don't doubt it's well meant and intended to be good and nice. It isn't: see OP. When you leave state matters to non-state institutions, you get corruption.

Lol your objection is that I use the term I expect? That's a serious and devastating defense of whatever....

Because you don't like the process does not mean it's corrupt or that it is. And as I said they aren't leaving state matters to the schools. The state still prosecutes the crimes. I guess explaining this process is not a replacement but in addition to the state process is lost on you.

[Kapadons]

SMU's punishment didnt even fit the crime. NCAA has backed away form the "death penalty' because of what it does to your program long term. it basically killed SMU for a decade. So while it may be more appropriate here because covering up rapes > covering up bribes, it likely wont happen.

What absolutely needs to happen is the AD fired, Starr fired, Briles fired, and the OC / DC and all assistant coaches for the football team fired.

Baylor football gonna be back to sucking ass for the next 25 years. Sic em Bears

[Crissi]

Baylor football gonna be back to sucking ass for the next 25 years. Sic em Bears

As a Texas fan, I welcome you to the club of "becoming worse than what you used to be". More people to smash on our way back up!.

Hook em!

[nextormento]

Lol your objection is that I use the term I expect? That's a serious and devastating defense of whatever....

I don't object to your personal expectations. I dismiss them, for being personal.
But I realize I'm taking too liberal an approach for the US, and it's possibly just a cultural clash on my end. After all, that police roam campus is just bizarre to me, given we fought to take them out of it. So I'll leave you folks to it.

[Kapadons]

As a Texas fan, I welcome you to the club of "becoming worse than what you used to be". More people to smash on our way back up!.

Hook em!

I went to UT. Huge Horns fan. Charlie may suck as a coach, and even more so as a recruiter but have to admire his cleaning up the program.

[Pangean]

No, i said no court declared that, that standard were to be used.
And there are several cases pending regarding the 'fairness' of that standard - As well as i said some states who have said that if the university use that standard, they don't get any state funding.

I see. Since no court set that standard they have to follow the standard set for them by those enforcing Title IX, no?

Cites for the court cases pending that are challenging that standard please and thanks.

States reps can threaten to cut funding for the university if they use that standard all they want. It meaningless to the standard that the Universities are required to use because the state doesn't set that. It's chest pounding that legislators do all the time when a university that receives state funding does something they don't like. Usually a right wing nutter leading the charge for their version of political correctness.

[Ripster42]

SMU's punishment didnt even fit the crime. NCAA has backed away form the "death penalty' because of what it does to your program long term. it basically killed SMU for a decade. So while it may be more appropriate here because covering up rapes > covering up bribes, it likely wont happen.

What absolutely needs to happen is the AD fired, Starr fired, Briles fired, and the OC / DC and all assistant coaches for the football team fired.

Again, I don't think the university staff, as a whole, including their board of regents, is responsible enough to run intercollegiate sports at all. You don't get to cover up murder and rapes because of your desire to win at athletics and still have an athletics program. All their student athletes should be free to go wherever they want. It seems incredibly implausible that the regents didn't know about this. They only made changes after people pointed out that asking them to believe the college had 0 reports of sexual assault is not a tenable position.

Edit: To be clear, this would be to punish their boosters, which is why I think athletes should have the choice to go wherever the they want with no transfer restrictions.

SMU's punishment fit the crime. They were also incapable of running an athletics program. Widespread corruption shouldn't be tolerated. Acting like having NCAA intercollegiate sports is a right doesn't jive with me. The negative effect on their football program was, in my eyes, the intended result. And I'm guessing it was the intended result of the people who instituted the punishment at the time too, even if they later said something different.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I'm arguing that universities have an obvious capacity to implement administrative decisions. If you're seeing anything else, you're talking about your straw man, not my argument.

You're defending poor practices is all. And its no strawman. Every time I see a thread like this you say the same thing ... 'Well you aren't ACTUALLY innocent..."

[Deleted]

Yeah that's bullshit. The state in the past has been an accessory to the actions of the university in covering up said activities.And where is this nonsense that the state is leaving up to the university to deal with it. All cases are then reported to the state for criminal actions. What the university does, does not replace the criminal process. It is in addition to it.

Except that's not true - A large number of 'victims' do not report to the police, treating the college administrators as their 'venue' for 'justice' - Which leads to actual rapists, who could have been convicted to go on and continue to rape women - Because rapists don't magically cease to be rapists because they get expelled.

[Crissi]

I went to UT. Huge Horns fan. Charlie may suck as a coach, and even more so as a recruiter but have to admire his cleaning up the program.

Erm...11th ranked recruiting for 2016 is sucking now? I think he's going to get better, especially when contrasted against Baylor. Momma's dont want their boys being surrounded by questionable university culture! When momma aint happy, NOBODY is happy!

but this belongs in the sports forum, in a few months when the NCAA thread is created :x

but this will be interesting to see how it impacts the programs of other schools like Tech, TCU, and Texas. A&M is a lost cause.

[Deleted]

I see. Since no court set that standard they have to follow the standard set for them by those enforcing Title IX, no?

Cites for the court cases pending that are challenging that standard please and thanks.

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.s...head_back.html
First one i could remember.

States reps can threaten to cut funding for the university if they use that standard all they want.

He didn't threaten - he actually cut their funding:

Ehrhart also said he tried to send Peterson a message by slashing the school’s request for a $47 million building.

[Zenotetsuken]

The law fundamentally does not define anyone as "innocent". The furthest it goes is determining that, given the evidence presented in court, it can not determine guilt at this time. That's what a "not guilty" verdict means. It may mean they're innocent, it may also mean they're guilty but the evidence failed to prove so beyond a reasonable doubt.

Ah yes, another Endus strawman.

Rape accusations should be handled by the police and the courts 100% of the time, not the university. Universities focus on nothing but self preservation, so you can't expect them to have a fair, unbiased stance. Your argument is irrelevant; being "Not guilty", while not fundamentally the same as "Innocent", still holds the same rights.

And you don't have any right to a post-secondary education. They have rules of conduct and such, and if you break them, they're absolutely free to expel you, and this is what that falls under. If the accusation really is groundless, you should be able to defend yourself from that accusation even at the administrative level, but the standards of criminal courts do not apply, there. No "beyond a reasonable doubt", just the standard of "yeah, that's probably how it went down".

This is exactly the problem, they have rules of conduct that you don't even have to break to be expelled, you simply have to be accused of breaking them. It is in the best interest of the university to NOT investigate it, and to instead railroad the accused so that they can limit their liability. That is why accusations should NEVER be handled by universities.



For anyone who still doesn't understand why Endus shouldn't be a mod, THIS is just one of MANY examples.

There honestly should be laws that prevent administrative action until a guilty verdict is reached by the courts.

This is a completely ludicrous point of view. Are you seriously claiming that you can't fire an employee for calling their supervisor a "raging cockbag dillhole", just because they can't be found guilty of anything in court for doing so? That a student should be freely able to plagiarize without repercussion because it's not actually criminal? That's literally your argument, here.

What kind of mental gymnastics do you have to pull to turn "There honestly should be laws that prevent administrative action until a guilty verdict is reached by the courts."
into
"Are you seriously claiming that you can't fire an employee for calling their supervisor a "raging cockbag dillhole", just because they can't be found guilty of anything in court for doing so?"
When the topic is clearly about rape, and how universities shouldn't be allowed to handle rape accusations internally.

[Anastacy]

Expelling a student for a potential rape they may have committed is not the university "doing law enforcement". In the same way that firing Joe for stealing pens isn't "doing law enforcement". It's pretty damned silly claim.

*may have stolen pens.

And yes, firing Joe just because someone said he stole pens would be silly.

[Berengil]

1> Campus police are often part of the actual police.
2> Because often, an accusation doesn't carry enough merit to be worth a criminal trial, but is grounds enough for adminstrative action. Same basic reason you can be fired for leering at coworkers and making salacious comments, even if none of that's explicitly illegal.

Endus, I swear, this thing you say whenever this subject comes up just blows my mind.

Let me be clear; if a university punishes someone for something that can't be proven, they deserve to go out of business. Such a university should be boycotted and protested out of existence by ANYONE who cares about the presumption of innocence.

A man's reputation can be ruined long-term by this kind of witch hunt. If it can't be proven, it merits not a dmn thing.

I don't jibe with many traditionally right-wing stances. And I'm pretty sure that private, for-profit colleges can accept or reject as they like. But I wholeheartedly support state law forbidding "administrative actions" at public colleges when the underlying charges have all the substance of a fart in a whirlwind.

If you can prove that someone's a rapist, throw his worthless butt in prison. If all you have is an unsubstantiated accusation, too bad so sad, I say.