"Basic Income" is a terrible idea

[Deleted]

We aren't in danger of running out of products, we're far more in danger of running out of consumers right now.

Personally, I feel that there are so many differences of opinion that people are simply going to have to vote for whomever they feel can deliver the best results.

Trump 2016

[Ins0mnia]

People's jobs are being replaced by robots/automation. I'm pretty sure that in 10 years from now, Google cars will replace Taxi drivers and Truck drivers. This is already happening, I mean..

[Endus]

Do you agree that the value of money has diminished since 30 years ago (which it has btw)? Why's that?

Because a small amount of inflation is healthy for an economy; it encourages spending and investment over storage.



See how there's a significant change in the behaviour of inflation post-1950? That's the deliberate outcome of fiscal policy, steadying inflatiion so we no longer see the chaotic highs and lows you can see prior. This all happened as a result of the Great Depression, but there wasn't a chance for fiscal policy to bring about any long-term change until after WWII, which came less than a decade out from the Depression. The goal is to keep it at about 2-4% per year.

[Deleted]

Layoffs, employer closes business, etc.

didnt even know layoffs were legal in the US. Certainly aren't where I am, if a contract is signed that is. When closing a buissness you'd have to give quite a few months notice, for people to find other jobs. So doing that, and that person not caring enough to look for a new one is that person fault themselves.

Again, I absolutley hate feeders. and if people need money to survive, Sure, give it to them. But again. They do not deserve luxuries.

[Glorious Leader]

Can you eat paper or gold?

Currency is backed up by something. Stability has value for example. If the U.S. couldn't borrow and spend so much it would have crashed and burned a long time ago.

Do you agree that the value of money has diminished since 30 years ago (which it has btw)? Why's that?

You can't eat either. Neither the dollar or gold is stable. Even under gold standard we had inflation and deflation. We had depression. We had recessions. Currency is ultimately only backed the authority that issues it. A gold standard IS A STANDARD. It's just as arbitrary as a fiat standard.

The idea that the individual dollar buys less is missing the point. All the dollars buy more than has ever been made in human history.

[Masark]

When closing a buissness you'd have to give quite a few months notice, for people to find other jobs.

Nope. Employment in the USA is "at will". You can be put out of work at any time, with no notice, for no reason at all.

[irdsyd]

In countries where basic income has been trialled it has mostly good impacts.

The problem with unemployment, poverty and disability welfare payment systems is they create a negative incentive to be unemployed, disabled or in poverty in order to get payments. They cost a lot to administer.

Where basic income payments have been trialled they cost less to administer (everyone gets the same - no need for a bureaucracy to manage applications and compliance), have resulted in more people doing part-time work (the incentive now is to work rather than not work), retraining, enrolling in adult education or starting small businesses.

Meaningless labels like socialist to describe something is just like any propaganda - useless in helping make informed decisions. The best way to make decisions is to trial things and use evidence. For example, the trial in Utah of giving homeless people apartments and supporting them for the first 12 months almost ended homelessness in that state and cost far less to run than funding homeless organisations, crisis teams and shelters.

[enak101]

In countries where basic income has been trialled it has mostly good impacts.

The problem with unemployment, poverty and disability welfare payment systems is they create a negative incentive to be unemployed, disabled or in poverty in order to get payments. They cost a lot to administer.

Where basic income payments have been trialled they cost less to administer (everyone gets the same - no need for a bureaucracy to manage applications and compliance), have resulted in more people doing part-time work (the incentive now is to work rather than not work), retraining, enrolling in adult education or starting small businesses.

Meaningless labels like socialist to describe something is just like any propaganda - useless in helping make informed decisions. The best way to make decisions is to trial things and use evidence. For example, the trial in Utah of giving homeless people apartments and supporting them for the first 12 months almost ended homelessness in that state and cost far less to run than funding homeless organisations, crisis teams and shelters.

Very clever post, people are just against anything to do with basic income because of preconceived notions and bias. Look at all the evidence and its nothing but good where its been tested really, sure there might be issues scaling it up but you can't say it isn't worth a try based on current testing.

[Deleted]

Nope. Employment in the USA is "at will". You can be put out of work at any time, with no notice, for no reason at all.

Damn, the us is fucked up.

[Deleted]

It can only work if borders will be completely closed beforehand.

And even then you have to wonder if the working eople want to keep coughing up money for the bottom of society.

[timberx]

And even then you have to wonder if the working eople want to keep coughing up money for the bottom of society.

But they already are...

[Vargulf the Happy Husky]

What you don't realize is that it already exists, just under different name. You just have to get registered as "unemployed" aaaaaand buala - you get paid monthly support

buala? did you mean viola?

[Deleted]

From a purely economical standpoint, sure. But if you're not contributing anything for the funds you're using for "consumption", you're a leech. Which is where this particular discussion originated.

The burden of someone being a leech is only felt when the leech is an active nuisence to society, hold progress back or if goods and services could've been alocated to someone who actually needs them. Soon none of those things will matter because we're slowly reaching a point where basic goods and services needed for living will end up being produced so efficiently that they might as well be given out for free. Hell! In certain cases it actually costs more money to destroy expired goods than it is to just give them away few days before they expire.

I mean c'mon! Where I work at TESCO we already start giving our unsold surplus and we call it fareshare.
http://www.fareshare.org.uk/fareshar...-tesco-stores/

Basic Income will be natural next step from this.

[Theodarzna]

In countries where basic income has been trialled it has mostly good impacts.

The problem with unemployment, poverty and disability welfare payment systems is they create a negative incentive to be unemployed, disabled or in poverty in order to get payments. They cost a lot to administer.

Where basic income payments have been trialled they cost less to administer (everyone gets the same - no need for a bureaucracy to manage applications and compliance), have resulted in more people doing part-time work (the incentive now is to work rather than not work), retraining, enrolling in adult education or starting small businesses.

Meaningless labels like socialist to describe something is just like any propaganda - useless in helping make informed decisions. The best way to make decisions is to trial things and use evidence. For example, the trial in Utah of giving homeless people apartments and supporting them for the first 12 months almost ended homelessness in that state and cost far less to run than funding homeless organisations, crisis teams and shelters.

UBI will likely have an explosion of small businesses as a result with everyone and their mothers becoming a small time merchant. If you no longer need worry about making a living, than you can much more easily sell to ever more niche markets.

[RaoBurning]

Damn, the us is fucked up.

Hi. Welcome to the conversation. I had a government job at a school and I didn't even get sick leave. I got "general leave" which, as the name implies, has to cover everything. I could still take time off if I ran out. I just wouldn't get paid. Luckily it was a shit job and nobody with actual technical certifications would have ever wanted to take it, so I was unlikely to be fired. Hell, I didn't want the job in the first place. I applied for the Library aid spot but they threw that one at me.

To the topic at hand: Basic Income also seems like it would drastically increase the velocity of money at the bottom end of the income spectrum. Seems like a pretty solid deal, to me. I know if I had extra cash right now I'd be funneling it right back into goods and services. Like a nice massage. And food.

UBI will likely have an explosion of small businesses as a result with everyone and their mothers becoming a small time merchant. If you no longer need worry about making a living, than you can much more easily sell to ever more niche markets.

Etsy: The movie. I shudder to think of the creative explosion UBI might herald. Can't find the gems if you don't get the rocks moving, you know?

[Spectral]

I know if I had extra cash right now I'd be funneling it right back into goods and services. Like a nice massage.

Indeed, free massages for all. State provided massages are basically a constitutional right.

And food.

Why don't you have food?

[Theodarzna]

Etsy: The movie. I shudder to think of the creative explosion UBI might herald. Can't find the gems if you don't get the rocks moving, you know?

I would likely devout most of my time purely to writing, specifically in some of the more obscure language I know.

My major field of interest is minority languages and one of the things that does hamper them is the economics of publishing and participation. So, I focus on the community of Celtic Language revival and indeed since the language of economic survival is English (Or French if we are discussing Brittany) it puts a dampening pressure on minority languages. If I need not worry about making a living but just purely making some sort of profit, I could churn out books until my hands fell off from typing and release them at a pittance because I don't need to provide enough for living expenses, but if I can put together enough money to say buy a new graphics card, or hobby materials than its all good.

The major barrier here for market participation is not "Will it churn a profit?" since publishing, especially now with eBooks and such is easy and inexpensive, but "Can I live on it? If you can't then you have to split your time between a full time regular job(s) AND then pursue this as your dedicated hobby.... which some can do but many bright and able people can't because they just don't have the economic resources to devout to such things since all their waking hours are spent purely trying to make ends meat.

For minority language communities this would be great since they could function without that burden of having to be purely a hobby you do outside of economic participation to gather the resources for bare existence in whatever society you live in.

[Spectral]

I would likely devout most of my time purely to writing, specifically in some of the more obscure language I know.

My major field of interest is minority languages and one of the things that does hamper them is the economics of publishing and participation. So, I focus on the community of Celtic Language revival and indeed since the language of economic survival is English (Or French if we are discussing Brittany) it puts a dampening pressure on minority languages. If I need not worry about making a living but just purely making some sort of profit, I could churn out books until my hands fell off from typing and release them at a pittance because I don't need to provide enough for living expenses, but if I can put together enough money to say buy a new graphics card, or hobby materials than its all good.

The major barrier here for market participation is not "Will it churn a profit?" since publishing, especially now with eBooks and such is easy and inexpensive, but "Can I live on it? If you can't then you have to split your time between a full time regular job(s) AND then pursue this as your dedicated hobby.... which some can do but many bright and able people can't because they just don't have the economic resources to devout to such things since all their waking hours are spent purely trying to make ends meat.

This explains a lot.

[Theodarzna]

This explains a lot.

About me? Or about my reasons?

[Spectral]

About me? Or about my reasons?

Both. I understand your perspective much better when I think of it as coming from someone that basically says, "I want to write things that no one really wants to read and I should be able to get new graphics cards by doing so".