The Ebon Blade's new Four Horsemen (massive spoilers)

[Maxilian]

Ok, good for you? That doesn't change the fact that the Death Knights in the canon purport to be autonomous and would never succumb to the Lich King's enslavement again.

Problem is they are willingly pursuing his agenda this time, rather than being forced to.

They are, we can already hear Morgraine saying that they are still warry of the Lich King, but they are still working with him, mainly to stop him from sending the scourge

[Seifross]

Ok, good for you? That doesn't change the fact that the Death Knights in the canon purport to be autonomous and would never succumb to the Lich King's enslavement again.

Problem is they are willingly pursuing his agenda this time, rather than being forced to.

They don't trust him, at least. I think they're working with him partially to stop the Scourge from coming back and partially because the Ebon Blade and Lich King working together again would be extremely powerful. Besides, it's possible that at least some members respect Bolvar for essentially sacrificing himself to become the LK.

Mograin does outright state that they don't trust him, IIRC.

[KrazyK923]

They don't trust him, at least. I think they're working with him partially to stop the Scourge from coming back and partially because the Ebon Blade and Lich King working together again would be extremely powerful. Besides, it's possible that at least some members respect Bolvar for essentially sacrificing himself to become the LK.

Mograin does outright state that they don't trust him, IIRC.

They are, we can already hear Morgraine saying that they are still warry of the Lich King, but they are still working with him, mainly to stop him from sending the scourge

More like , they share a common enemy so it makes sense to work together.

I'm aware he says he doesn't trust the Lich King. But that doesn't change the simple fact that they are flatout following the Lich King's agenda and aren't really even autonomous in choosing how to best fight the Legion. Just go back and watch or replay the DK stuff:

The very first thing you do is to be COMMANDED by the Lich King to search out the Ebon Blade, and regardless of which artifact you pick, you have to go to ICC to receive his blessing.

When your class campaign begins, it's the LICH KING's plan to resurrect the Four Horsemen. He is the one who picks each and every one of the four (Obviously save Darion).

And most concerning is that he is the one who is completely willing to just attack and wipe out Light's Hope Chapel in order to obtain Tirion's body. If it is to be believed that Bolvar is still in full control, rather than having been corrupted by the Helm of Domination, then this seems completely out of character for him. If anything, to me, it comes across as "finally trying to get rid of those goddamn paladins."

Naturally this is all conjecture, and its highly likely I'm giving Blizzard too much credit here, but I really do think the Lich King is basically tricking all the Death Knights to just follow his agenda, but doing it in a smarter way than Arthas did. Rather than enforce his will, Bolvar is offering them power and other goodies in exchange for their service.

Yes you could argue that its just a mutual friendship, but I'd think it was much more this vs just voluntary subjugation if the Ebon Blade ever had any autonomous decision in the DK class campaign. Rather it's always the Lich King's plan that the DKs enact.

[Seifross]

I'm aware he says he doesn't trust the Lich King. But that doesn't change the simple fact that they are flatout following the Lich King's agenda and aren't really even autonomous in choosing how to best fight the Legion. Just go back and watch or replay the DK stuff:

The very first thing you do is to be COMMANDED by the Lich King to search out the Ebon Blade, and regardless of which artifact you pick, you have to go to ICC to receive his blessing.

When your class campaign begins, it's the LICH KING's plan to resurrect the Four Horsemen. He is the one who picks each and every one of the four (Obviously save Darion).

And most concerning is that he is the one who is completely willing to just attack and wipe out Light's Hope Chapel in order to obtain Tirion's body. If it is to be believed that Bolvar is still in full control, rather than having been corrupted by the Helm of Domination, then this seems completely out of character for him. If anything, to me, it comes across as "finally trying to get rid of those goddamn paladins."

Naturally this is all conjecture, and its highly likely I'm giving Blizzard too much credit here, but I really do think the Lich King is basically tricking all the Death Knights to just follow his agenda, but doing it in a smarter way than Arthas did. Rather than enforce his will, Bolvar is offering them power and other goodies in exchange for their service.

Yes you could argue that its just a mutual friendship, but I'd think it was much more this vs just voluntary subjugation if the Ebon Blade ever had any autonomous decision in the DK class campaign. Rather it's always the Lich King's plan that the DKs enact.

I think that resurrecting Bolvar makes perfect sense - even Arthas said he'd make an amazing Death Knight, which is something the LK and Ebon Blade can agree would be useful given the invasion.

I guess I just don't see a problem since the EB and LK seem to just have the same goals, regardless of the other. If it's just the LK's dialogue that concerns you I'm not sure what to say. The Lich King has always been inseparable from the EB, and their lore suffered heavily when Arthas died and they just kind of drifted along, IMO.

[steelballfc]

I'm aware he says he doesn't trust the Lich King. But that doesn't change the simple fact that they are flatout following the Lich King's agenda and aren't really even autonomous in choosing how to best fight the Legion. Just go back and watch or replay the DK stuff:

The very first thing you do is to be COMMANDED by the Lich King to search out the Ebon Blade, and regardless of which artifact you pick, you have to go to ICC to receive his blessing.

When your class campaign begins, it's the LICH KING's plan to resurrect the Four Horsemen. He is the one who picks each and every one of the four (Obviously save Darion).

And most concerning is that he is the one who is completely willing to just attack and wipe out Light's Hope Chapel in order to obtain Tirion's body. If it is to be believed that Bolvar is still in full control, rather than having been corrupted by the Helm of Domination, then this seems completely out of character for him. If anything, to me, it comes across as "finally trying to get rid of those goddamn paladins."

Naturally this is all conjecture, and its highly likely I'm giving Blizzard too much credit here, but I really do think the Lich King is basically tricking all the Death Knights to just follow his agenda, but doing it in a smarter way than Arthas did. Rather than enforce his will, Bolvar is offering them power and other goodies in exchange for their service.

Yes you could argue that its just a mutual friendship, but I'd think it was much more this vs just voluntary subjugation if the Ebon Blade ever had any autonomous decision in the DK class campaign. Rather it's always the Lich King's plan that the DKs enact.

Inception
it has all become clear

[Deleted]

I'm aware he says he doesn't trust the Lich King. But that doesn't change the simple fact that they are flatout following the Lich King's agenda and aren't really even autonomous in choosing how to best fight the Legion. Just go back and watch or replay the DK stuff:

The very first thing you do is to be COMMANDED by the Lich King to search out the Ebon Blade, and regardless of which artifact you pick, you have to go to ICC to receive his blessing.

When your class campaign begins, it's the LICH KING's plan to resurrect the Four Horsemen. He is the one who picks each and every one of the four (Obviously save Darion).

And most concerning is that he is the one who is completely willing to just attack and wipe out Light's Hope Chapel in order to obtain Tirion's body. If it is to be believed that Bolvar is still in full control, rather than having been corrupted by the Helm of Domination, then this seems completely out of character for him. If anything, to me, it comes across as "finally trying to get rid of those goddamn paladins."

Naturally this is all conjecture, and its highly likely I'm giving Blizzard too much credit here, but I really do think the Lich King is basically tricking all the Death Knights to just follow his agenda, but doing it in a smarter way than Arthas did. Rather than enforce his will, Bolvar is offering them power and other goodies in exchange for their service.

Yes you could argue that its just a mutual friendship, but I'd think it was much more this vs just voluntary subjugation if the Ebon Blade ever had any autonomous decision in the DK class campaign. Rather it's always the Lich King's plan that the DKs enact.

Well , I think we should also keep in mind that , LK knows the legio better than we do , hence why he wants us to go after nathrezim as our main goal(that and he also wants revenge).

[Radaney]

I too find it sketchy as hell that I was made into the Lich Kings Champion and he can telepathically talk to me.

[Daralii]

I too find it sketchy as hell that I was made into the Lich Kings Champion and he can telepathically talk to me.

Just like good old times.

[Radaney]

Just like good old times.

Why can't I just kill him, again and become the Lich King myself.

[Seezer]

sir i don't care if you watch hentai

And nobody cares if you watch hentai. What is your point?

[steelballfc]

And nobody cares if you watch hentai. What is your point?

you can be what ever you want !

[Deleted]

To be honest this seems somewhat of a cop-out. It reeks of them changing the quest after feedback and complaints from paladins.

[Traveler Voltin]

No duh its a cop out.
It wasnt just paladin players complaining

[Ersula]

No duh its a cop out.
It wasnt just paladin players complaining

I would think if it was a last minute change, they would have thought of a better replacement.

[Florena]

To be honest this seems somewhat of a cop-out. It reeks of them changing the quest after feedback and complaints from paladins.

Possibly, though I'm a rogue and I like the new angle better, it's kind of BS to storm another order's hall and run off with the corpse of their greatest hero. I'd say the same thing if the paladins did the same to the ebon hold or if the warlocks busted into the mage hall and stole some tomes. It makes the order on the receiving end look like helpess chumps rather htan a powerful order of the best of their class.

[Traveler Voltin]

Attacking your allies during a war of extinction is bad

[Leviatharan]

I'm sorry, did anyone expect the order hall campaign to be as cut-and-dry as the quest text being fed to us would have us believe? That there would be no twists?
"Do X." "X is done." "Do Y." "Y is done." "Do Z." "Z... is a bit more complicated." Kind of the mission statement of Legion!

The instant we had the "Tirion" part spoiled, I called that he wouldn't be one of the Horseman, and I'm sure I wasn't the only one either.

Let's be honest here: The appeal of having Tirion as a fourth Horseman was similar to Zeliek, seeing him be a bearer of the Light even in his darkest time. Unfortunately, Tirion... before Ashbringer, he was never a very good Paladin, and the player getting Ashbringer is a pretty permanent way to give that up. He completely gave up on the Light after his son's death, and spoilers for Tirion's death in the first place, Gul'dan easily breaks what little power with the Light he still has - in no small part because he used his one final blessing to finish off Arthas.
He completed his arc, he passed on the blade. To keep him around any longer would've been kicking a dead horse.

Best case scenario, we'd be seeing a guy with Tirion's name and face, without any of his most notable powers or weaponry, to whom agreement to become a Horseman would completely conflict with his established zealotry against dark magic (see: ToGC; we don't need two human Horsemen with the same motivation, especially if the contrast is supposed to establish a penance for one and the second-coming of another), and whose position of authority (as the most powerful knight of the most powerful knights of the Ebon Blade) would trump Darion's again.

I prefer that we got Darion; he's the leader of all DKs on Azeroth but he's been out of focus since he formed the Ebon Blade (after Arthas, your first thought about a DK is probably Thassarian). Who cares if he pointlessly died again to become a super-DK, frankly I found it a little surprising that we didn't turn more of the established DK heroes into Horsemen.

[Deleted]

Possibly, though I'm a rogue and I like the new angle better, it's kind of BS to storm another order's hall and run off with the corpse of their greatest hero. I'd say the same thing if the paladins did the same to the ebon hold or if the warlocks busted into the mage hall and stole some tomes. It makes the order on the receiving end look like helpess chumps rather htan a powerful order of the best of their class.

Yeah but now DK's look like chumps because we failed to do what we set out to do. The animosity created, all for the greater good, but with no result to show for it.

[Verdugo]

Yeah but now DK's look like chumps because we failed to do what we set out to do. The animosity created, all for the greater good, but with no result to show for it.

Darion was a chump the moment he decided to assault Lights Hope again.

After he failed the first time.
With bigger army.

[Daralii]

Yeah but now DK's look like chumps because we failed to do what we set out to do. The animosity created, all for the greater good, but with no result to show for it.

The alternative would be succeeding and getting every pious individual on Azeroth ready to storm Acherus.

Logically, most orders and races would see the Ebon Blade as a threat, stamp them out quickly, and then focus their full energy on the Legion without a dog nipping at their heels. Them failing creates a ton of animosity, but it places them on the backburner.

Why anyone at Blizzard thought them attacking Light's Hope again was a good idea after the story clusterfuck of SoO is beyond me.