Blizzard finally pulls the plug on welfare pvp gear.

[Deleted]

and this kind of attitude is exactly why normal people don't like to have to deal with pvpers.

Yeah and funnily enough it was the other guy, the pve guy, provoking with "scrub" and the other stuff. That kind of attitude is exactly why normal people don't like to have to deal with raiders. Like when every time pveers feel "forced" to do anything, the rest of the game suffers. Pathetic and toxic individuals.

How come no pvp player visits the raid and dungeons forum just to make toxic and butthurt posts, yet this forum is filled with pveers doing this exact thing?

[Livevil]

and this kind of attitude is exactly why normal people don't like to have to deal with pvpers.

For a "normal and cool" pve guy like yourself, that dislikes pvp and wants nothing to do with pvpers, you sure spend a lot of time in the pvp forum making all these toxic, clueless posts and being downright annoying. So when you talk about attitudes, maybe you should take a look at the mirror first.

http://imgur.com/uhr6W0y

[Kagthul]

old Kentucky saying:

If you meet an asshole in the morning, you met an asshole.

If you keep meeting assholes all day....

you're the asshole.

[RelaZ]

Then first you have to be good enough to pug a heroic raid.
Did you pug BRF when it was current? I don't assume you did. You wouldn't think pugging a heroic to be a cakewalk.
Don't think of pugging HFC in current conditions to be the same as what you'll have on Legion launch.

If you're good enough to do mythic, you get mythic gear.
If you're good enough to have 2400 or higher CR you get mythic equivalent gear.
I think it's about the same percentage of the participating playerbase.

A normal raider shouldn't get the same rewards as a mythic raider.
A casual pvp'er shouldn't get the same rewards as a gladiator.

I wouldn't have though this to be a controversial idea.

The average PvPer will feel forced into Mythic to get better gear since he can't get 2400 rating but still wants better gear. Especially considering that killing Mythic bosses is much much easier than getting high rating in PvP (even moreso after all the nerfs that are bound to happen to the bosses)

Hardcore PvErs who try to kill bosses as fast as possible will feel forced into (buying) PvP rating so they can get more gear early on (although PvP gear will be randomized and have no set bonuses).

On top of that I'm not entirely sure but if max pvp ilvl is 900 that's already 6 ilvls below Mythic ilvl. Furthermore PvE items are upgradeable and can be warforged (this might be removed tho) for additional ilvls. That means PvE gear will just straight up be better than PvP gear unless PvP gear is also upgradeable (and can get warforged if that's still a thing).

[Magicpot]

Currently the system is that a gear can be Warforged (+10 ilvls) or Titanforged (+15-55 item levels randomly), so the much bigger controversy here is that people who get lucky can get both better gear then unlucky mythic raiders and unlucky high end pvpers.

[judgementofantonidas]

Yeah and funnily enough it was the other guy, the pve guy, provoking with "scrub" and the other stuff. That kind of attitude is exactly why normal people don't like to have to deal with raiders. Like when every time pveers feel "forced" to do anything, the rest of the game suffers. Pathetic and toxic individuals.

How come no pvp player visits the raid and dungeons forum just to make toxic and butthurt posts, yet this forum is filled with pveers doing this exact thing?

pvp is a small part of "the rest of the game". some raiders go to pve only servers just to get away from your type, and yet your type crop up there crying that they cannot force people into "world pvp", which amounts to nothing more than pvpers greifing pveers that want nothing to do with them.

[normiegonnanorm]

pve numbers are low, quality is atrocious
so no more pvp-only game guys, obviously.

pvp is a small part of "the rest of the game". some raiders go to pve only servers just to get away from your type, and yet your type crop up there crying that they cannot force people into "world pvp", which amounts to nothing more than pvpers greifing pveers that want nothing to do with them.

can't believe you are serious..
WoW is an MMO game. Massive multiplayer online experience. You wanna butcher it to a small corridors what used to be raids on a sandbox server, where everybody stays in garrison or towns 90% of the time, all of that for what, killing some "bosses" like in clicker heroes?

[Deleted]

pvp is a small part of "the rest of the game". some raiders go to pve only servers just to get away from your type, and yet your type crop up there crying that they cannot force people into "world pvp", which amounts to nothing more than pvpers greifing pveers that want nothing to do with them.

When i say rest of the game i dont mean just pvp. LFR took a huge hit in WoD for the exact same reason; entitled, pampered, butthurt and salty raiders like you feeling "forced" to do it and talking down on all the people that actually enjoyed it. Your posts pretty much confirm it. You lurk in the pvp forum, while you dislike pvp and pvpers in general, making all these provocative and cancerous posts. Who is actually doing the griefing here? Like the other guy said take a look at the mirror first.

[Drosul]

For those trying to make the case that 10% isn't a big deal.....



How many of you play HUMAN right now? How much of the rated community plays a HUMAN, if their respective class choice allows it?

EMFH for the majority of WoD was a roughly 10% advantage..... and that 10% was enough to decimate the entire two faction PvP system in it's entirety and create the first super majority by a single race on the pvp ladders. A "mere" 10% advantage was a big enough problem to turn 96% of the entire PvP ladder into Alliance, and 68% of all ladder players Human (and it would have been even worse if 2 of the healing classes at the time (druid/shaman), including the best overall healer at the time (druid) had the opportunity to roll Human like the rest of the fotm scumlords.

Yall are out of your goddamn minds if you think 10% isn't a gigantic problem.

[Kagthul]

Then first you have to be good enough to pug a heroic raid.
Did you pug BRF when it was current? I don't assume you did.

You know what they say about assumptions.

You wouldn't think pugging a heroic to be a cakewalk.

Never said cakewalk.

If you're good enough to do mythic, you get mythic gear.
If you're good enough to have 2400 or higher CR you get mythic equivalent gear.
I think it's about the same percentage of the participating playerbase.

The difference is, people currently clearing mythic aren't preventing other people from clearing mythic. I can get better and clear mythic (or get a carry, or whatever). That simply is not mathematically possible in the rated PvP ladder. Using simple numbers, even if 1000 people are good enough to be rated 2400 or above, the system wont let more than 300 of them be that rating. Ever. Period.

PvE doesn't work that way. Literally everyone has the chance to do Mythic, if they put in the time/effort/money (or a combination of all of the above). Literally 5% of the active participants in rated PvP can get 2400+.... ever. Because that's how a pyramidal ladder works.

A normal raider shouldn't get the same rewards as a mythic raider.
A casual pvp'er shouldn't get the same rewards as a gladiator.

I wouldn't have though this to be a controversial idea.

Then you dont understand how the ladder system works. Guys going for 2400 rating to get "Mythic" level gear - have to fight people who already have that gear and that rating... while they are under-geared.

Seems legit.

[Snegovik]

The difference is, people currently clearing mythic aren't preventing other people from clearing mythic. I can get better and clear mythic (or get a carry, or whatever). That simply is not mathematically possible in the rated PvP ladder. Using simple numbers, even if 1000 people are good enough to be rated 2400 or above, the system wont let more than 300 of them be that rating. Ever. Period.

PvE doesn't work that way. Literally everyone has the chance to do Mythic, if they put in the time/effort/money (or a combination of all of the above). Literally 5% of the active participants in rated PvP can get 2400+.... ever. Because that's how a pyramidal ladder works.



Then you dont understand how the ladder system works. Guys going for 2400 rating to get "Mythic" level gear - have to fight people who already have that gear and that rating... while they are under-geared.

Seems legit.

This 100%.

Also may i add when pve guild sell Mythic clears/loot it does not affect other guilds. However, in rated pvp if multi r1 players piloting some nubs to 2.4k-Glad, guess what u have to face those SAME multi r1 multiple times, them playing multiples teams, which even greater shrinks % of ppl who can get 2.4k cr+.
Finally unlike Mythic where once it is on grind, u can carry an underdog dps class, like Ret pally. However in rated PvP, there are FOTM comps that pretty much gives u an upper hand vs underdog comp that consist of underdogs like Ret pally. Hence, a Ret pally would have a much higher chance getting Mythic on live (as an example) than 2.4k-2.5kcr in 3s (I am not even talking about RBGs since Rets are not viable there above 2k, no matter how GOOD u are as a Ret, ur spec was not designed to do well in RBGs)

[rda]

The difference is, people currently clearing mythic aren't preventing other people from clearing mythic. I can get better and clear mythic (or get a carry, or whatever). That simply is not mathematically possible in the rated PvP ladder. Using simple numbers, even if 1000 people are good enough to be rated 2400 or above, the system wont let more than 300 of them be that rating. Ever. Period.

PvE doesn't work that way. Literally everyone has the chance to do Mythic, if they put in the time/effort/money (or a combination of all of the above). Literally 5% of the active participants in rated PvP can get 2400+.... ever. Because that's how a pyramidal ladder works.

He is a PVEer and same as several other PVEers in this thread there are obvious, basic things about PVP that he simply has no clue about. Maybe he heard something about them but he certainly doesn't understand what's important and what's not and how it all combines.

It's fine to be clueless about PVP, this is a big game, etc. The only thing I don't understand is why the hell these clueless PVEers feel comfortable lecturing us, PVPers, about how PVP is and what gearing model is fine or not fine for us. In 99% of the cases they simply don't know how things are now or what it is exactly that Blizzard are proposing for Legion.

Here's a message to the PVEers: we aren't complaining just to complain. PVP changes in Legion are making it worse, not better. If you think they are making it better, chances are, you are blinded by the deceptive blue posts which are saying things that are technically true, but they only tell 20% of what there is to tell (that juxtaposition of 10% stats from 100 ilvls in Legion compared to way more from same 100 ilvls in WoD is deceptive as hell, the difference in WoD *in PVP* is going to be the same 10%). Please read what it is specifically that we are objecting to, you are very likely missing something.

[CenariusTheForestLord]

He is a PVEer and same as several other PVEers in this thread there are obvious, basic things about PVP that he simply has no clue about. Maybe he heard something about them but he certainly doesn't understand what's important and what's not and how it all combines.

It's fine to be clueless about PVP, this is a big game, etc. The only thing I don't understand is why the hell these clueless PVEers feel comfortable lecturing us, PVPers, about how PVP is and what gearing model is fine or not fine for us. In 99% of the cases they simply don't know how things are now or what it is exactly that Blizzard are proposing for Legion.

Here's a message to the PVEers: we aren't complaining just to complain. PVP changes in Legion are making it worse, not better. If you think they are making it better, chances are, you are blinded by the deceptive blue posts which are saying things that are technically true, but they only tell 20% of what there is to tell (that juxtaposition of 10% stats from 100 ilvls in Legion compared to way more from same 100 ilvls in WoD is deceptive as hell, the difference in WoD *in PVP* is going to be the same 10%). Please read what it is specifically that we are objecting to, you are very likely missing something.

You know what they say about assumptions.

Didn't even have to write anything.

[rda]

Didn't even have to write anything.

The message stands - there are obvious, basic things about PVP that you simply have no clue about, so instead of theorizing about whether the Legion changes are good or not, please just listen to others.

[Dumaw]

I remember one dev was talking about this 10% difference we have today. Saying they felt this is too much of a difference for gear to make in pvp.
So then he said now instead of 1.0% per ilvl, it would be 0.1%

I figured ok then, lets keep a little difference, very little, but enough for it to be worth for the arena players, for rated players to grind it, but not enough that gear could be a big deciding factor in a win/loss pvp combat.

That sounds great... but then I see people talking about the ilvl gear in Legion, 800 to 900? Or is it 810 to 890? Either way this seems that all that talk was just to change six for half a dozen, made almost no difference

[Snegovik]

I remember one dev was talking about this 10% difference we have today. Saying they felt this is too much of a difference for gear to make in pvp.
So then he said now instead of 1.0% per ilvl, it would be 0.1%

I figured ok then, lets keep a little difference, very little, but enough for it to be worth for the arena players, for rated players to grind it, but not enough that gear could be a big deciding factor in a win/loss pvp combat.

That sounds great... but then I see people talking about the ilvl gear in Legion, 800 to 900? Or is it 810 to 890? Either way this seems that all that talk was just to change six for half a dozen, made almost no difference

Because unfortunately we are dealing with Blizzard =)

[PrairieChicken]

Well they kept the gear gap but eliminated incentive to pvp for gear so it is pretty obvious that is it targeted at dragon slayers.

I guess raid participation > pvp participation?

Wpvp too, make sure that the mythic dragonslayers will be invincible overworld and immune to bothering from lowly pvp peons

[araine]

I was talking about marginal benefit. The difference between an ilevel 800 and 801 is 0.1% and the difference between ilevel 800 and 900 is 10%. Gear is becoming less a determinant of who wins, and the emphasis is more on skill.

That's why I concluded that gear is less relevant, assuming a base line.

How gets the jump on will be much more important than the gear, the actual skill will matter more and i can see some people not liking that at all since they cant brute force themself to glory anymore

[Dartz1979]

No more free epics by doing only PvP anymore. Casual/Bad players like me that PvP only are basically doomed to blues from random boxes (that supposedly are worse than LFR gear) or actually forcing ourselves to Raid (I'm never going to Raid).

I understand why Blizzard is doing this. They've had a longtime struggle with PvP gear basically overlapping the vast majority of PvE content by being stronger than all entry level PvE gear. Ever since Cataclysm when they removed rating restrictions on gear, PvP gear became too easy to obtain and its power level was too powerful for how easy it was to get.

When they added the catchup mechanic in MoP, getting PvP gear was basically the optimal path for entry level PvE progression. Why do dungeons/LFR/Flex/normal when you can just tank mmr in 2's and farm bads until you have full conquest gear and jump straight into heroics?

That was the real issue with PvP gear and with WoD blizzard tried to alleviate this by making PvP gear item level lower than normal outside of PvP. Yet, the problem still remained, honor gear was still easy to obtain and better than anything from entry level PvE content. It was just faster to farm Ashran artifacts than it was to spend weeks farming Tanaan Jungle/LFR/Apexis crystals. This is a design flaw that Blizzard has known about for years but hasn't done anything about it until Legion.

So yeah people like me are doomed to PvE to get better gear. They want everyone not pushing rating in PvP to do Raiding. This is simply a ploy to push participation numbers for Raiding and PvE in general, there's zero equality in gear Legion despite what they claim. And this isn't even mentioning how artifact weapon grinding is based on PvE which still applies in PvP.

Even high rated PvP players I still think will be conned to do Raiding. We all know how powerful PvE trinkets are and I really don't think any PvP trinket from a lockbox is going to compete with how overpowered they make PvE trinkets. Some classes might get away with not having to do PvE, but the classes that depend on ridiculous damage (Warriors,DK's) to be viable will.

Whatever though. I'm not mad, just shocked that the free gear all these years has finally come to an end. And I'll admit it that I took advantage and depended on this design flaw.

not true you can get honor capped in 20 minutes tops if you have good ashran group.

[Mafic]

Well they kept the gear gap but eliminated incentive to pvp for gear so it is pretty obvious that is it targeted at dragon slayers.

I guess raid participation > pvp participation?

Wpvp too, make sure that the mythic dragonslayers will be invincible overworld and immune to bothering from lowly pvp peons

Basically yes that is what they are doing. They are generating a handicap to help out PVE players in PVP and to entice them to do PVP.