Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Xaryen]

I'm not sure what Legion are you playing, but Dance absolutely isn't on gcd, it only triggers a 1 second cooldown on Shadow Dance to prevent you from accidentaly using multiple charges at once. You can use any other ability immediately after, you can even macro Shadowstrike to SD.

[Wow]

wut. it is 100% on the gcd in legion

Its on the gcd but doesn't trigger it.

[elfporn]

I'm not sure what Legion are you playing, but Dance absolutely isn't on gcd, it only triggers a 1 second cooldown on Shadow Dance to prevent you from accidentaly using multiple charges at once. You can use any other ability immediately after, you can even macro Shadowstrike to SD.

yea this is how i thought it works, it had it's own separate 1sec cd. It's not on the GlobalCoolDown, technically.

[kalaratic]

I'm not sure what Legion are you playing, but Dance absolutely isn't on gcd, it only triggers a 1 second cooldown on Shadow Dance to prevent you from accidentaly using multiple charges at once. You can use any other ability immediately after, you can even macro Shadowstrike to SD.

wtf is the difference? our gcd is 1 sec so it plays the same. u cannot hit shadow dance while the rest of ur abilities are on the gcd unlike spells like cloak and evasion.

[Wow]

wtf is the difference? our gcd is 1 sec so it plays the same. u cannot hit shadow dance while the rest of ur abilities are on the gcd unlike spells like cloak and evasion.

The difference is that if dance was fully on the gcd you'd have to wait 1 sec before hitting shadowstrike after hitting dance but how it is you can hit it immediately.

[Xaryen]

@Wow is more correct on the wording if that's what you meant.

That still makes no difference, you should never use Shadow Dance without immediately following it with an ability cast, casting SD mid gcd is a waste of uptime.

[Wow]

My guess for the reasoning is they want to make sure you won't waste any dance time with how short they made it.

[kalaratic]

just seems pretty bad that i need a SD + SS bind, SD + SoD bind, and SS + nightblade bind for AoE. charges are so dumb for this spec

[elfporn]

just seems pretty bad that i need a SD + SS bind, SD + SoD bind, and SS + nightblade bind for AoE. charges are so dumb for this spec

i wouldn't recommend any of those binds.

SD->SS won't be used 100% of the time, you'll probably want to use that first GCD to drop a 5/6cp finality:evisc, then do SS, SS.

SoD should be used roughly every other dance/stealth, atleast until we are geared enough to have an extra 35 energy to waste at the start of every dance/stealth. Though admittedly an SS>SoD macro used when needed isn't a bad idea

And applying nightblade for aoe, ss>nightblade sounds like a bad use of combo points (as a macro) I hate DoT spreading for aoe.

[kalaratic]

i wouldn't recommend any of those binds.

SD->SS won't be used 100% of the time, you'll probably want to use that first GCD to drop a 5/6cp finality:evisc, then do SS, SS.

SoD should be used roughly every other dance/stealth, atleast until we are geared enough to have an extra 35 energy to waste at the start of every dance/stealth. Though admittedly an SS>SoD macro used when needed isn't a bad idea

And applying nightblade for aoe, ss>nightblade sounds like a bad use of combo points (as a macro) I hate DoT spreading for aoe.

o ya sorry i meant in addition to the regular SD bind. only reason i'm considering it is just because of muscle memory. it is so frustrating when i want to hit SD but it's on that dumb 1 sec cd. so just by having those 3 binds at least when i spam the button something happens right away when it goes off. the nightblade one especially because when ur in an aoe scenario, u get cp up the ass with fok. this means most of the time u will be at 3 charges, so by having that bind u can burn off a charge quick and start boosting ur aoe with MoS / shadow nova while doing the tab target snoozefest that is sub aoe.

[Xaryen]

SD->SS won't be used 100% of the time, you'll probably want to use that first GCD to drop a 5/6cp finality:evisc, then do SS, SS.

Probably will be, most of the time. You only want to start a dance with finisher when at 3 charges in order to avoid wasting a charge, but that tends to happen very rarely after the opener.

Majority off your Dances - the ones starting at 1 or 2 charges you want to start with full energy open with a SS and use a finisher a 2nd or 3rd gcd in order to refund energy to be able to pull of 4 Shadowstrikes per dance total, provided you play with Subterfuge. Having SD+SS and SD+SoD+SS in addition to normal SD bind is definitively useful. Though you should only really open with the latter one in case you can almost immediately follow with a finisher, probably a 25 energy one at lower haste levels too.

[elfporn]

GDI all this makes me want solid simcraft numbers to work with.

@Xaryen - i'm leaning towards Nightstalker instead of subterfuge, though tuning will tell of course. I also wasn't assuming full energy, entering SD with full CP i would assume roughly half energy, with the 1sec+evisc(++50 energy, conservatively) filling up to full for the SS dump, further, getting in SoD on this you would regen closer to full before SD, and come out with same results.

Admittedly, doing the opposite is fine as well - entering with full energy/no CP, dumping first, then evisc for the energy return, my thought on this is the higher risk of overcapping CP

@kalaratic - that SS->NB bind does indeed sound useful if you're pairing it with SStorm uses, though with the ring, cloak, and DFA you'd probably want to do with the hardhitters instead of the DoT's. Assuming you want burst-cleave instead of sustained-cleave. That's also considering that you've managed to farm up two legendaries, fucking circus hoops.

[kalaratic]

GDI all this makes me want solid simcraft numbers to work with.

seriously. there's so much cool stuff i want to see. things like if it's worth doing 6cp finishers in a nightstalker MoS shadow dance with DS rather than shadowstrikes, if burning cp by spamming 5 shadowstrikes in a vigor dance is better than using a finisher due to akaari's soul. i really fucking hope they give us the legion anticipation baseline with a talented version giving the 2 extra cp to be stored just because DS and vigor are really interesting and i don't want to be forced to use anticipation.

[Deleted]

I'm still baffled how Sub, the Stealth spec, has so little use for its Stealth (they even pruned the ShD bar because there's not enough stealth skills to justify it).

If we forget Master of Subtlety, which is a talent, Sub's inherent Stealth uses are: 1- Cast an improved Backstab; 2- Refresh a damage buff; 3- Use a weak AoE skill; 4- Use CC.

Now, let's check Outlaw and Assassination's uses for Stealth. Outlaw: 1- Cast an improved Saber Slash; 2- Have access to a buff that interacts with gameplay; 3- Use CC. Assassination (I will have to consider talents here because they majorly affect the outcome of Sin's stealth in a different way than Sub and Outlaw): 1- Cast a stronger skill if Nightstalker or Subterfuge OR cast a cheaper skill if Shadow Focus; 2- Use CC. And let's keep in mind that stealth also has a role in AoE for both of the other specs.

See what I mean? Other than using stealth more often, Sub's stealth is currently not much more meaningful than it is for Outlaw and Sin. And I'm not saying that Outlaw and Sin should stealth nerfed, I'm saying Sub's stealth is just not meaningful enough, specially if you compare it with live. More stealth isn't better stealth. Master of Subtlety, the skill that survives Find Weakness and was pruned from baseline into a talent tree, is absolutely needed to make stealth meaningful. With MoS, stealth becomes a burst window once again for which you can plan ahead and unleash hell, just like in live. MoS, a skill so defining of Subtlety's gameplay and fantasy, IS IN A FUCKING TALENT TREE COMPETING WITH TWO TALENTS THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH STEALTH.

I'll go as far to say that without MoS, Sub doesn't make any sense at all. Otherwise, the only fantasy I see for Sub is to cast Shadowstrike which has a sweet animation. Otherwise, Shadow Dance is nothing but a button you need to press before being able to cast Shadowstrike or SoD.

Gloomblade just removes the annoyance that are positional requirements. Weaponmaster is a passive damage bonus you have no control over and has barely any impact in your gameplay. Competing with both of these, it's Sub's stealth defining mechanic in Master of Subtlety that completely changes the way the spec is played. With MoS, resources need to be carefully managed to be available on ShD windows, AoE gets some burst, there's a chance for juicy Finality Eviscerates, finishers get a role on stealth, and you fulfill the fantasy of a cunning ambusher that waits and prepares for the right moment to strike. In respect of class (spec) fantasy, which Blizzard picked as this xpac's banner and went through the trouble of thoroughly define it for each spec, Subtlety fails completely WHEN ONE OF THERE CORE ELEMENTS THAT MAKES UP THAT FANTASY IS HANGING IN A TALENT TREE.

To sum up, just another daily reminder that Master of Subtlety needs to be baseline.

[kalaratic]

ya our lvl 15 talent choice has to be some of the worst in the game. it's choosing between 2 things that should be baseline and a removed stat from the game that no longer interacts with anything

[elfporn]

ya our lvl 15 talent choice has to be some of the worst in the game. it's choosing between 2 things that should be baseline and a removed stat from the game that no longer interacts with anything

But...but...but it's better than multistrike! It is a direct mirror of what it copies! Including all effects, procs, etc!

It's a horseshit talent.

Thinking of a way to make it viable, all i can think of is possibly haste/alacrity assassination with all it's DoT's and more damage effects happening in a shorter window. Maybe a haste, alacrity, snd build outlaw. And Lastly a heavy heavy haste built sub rogue with alacrity(far fetched)

Weaponmaster just won't be worth taking unless we're pumping out ridiculous amounts of separate dmg effects per sec (fast/numerous attacks). Even with beefed up haste builds it's still a crapshoot, 6% is 6%.


Another thing where we need solid numbers to work with.

[ymirsson]

MAybe they finally want to get rid of stealth as game mechanic altogether and started to fade it out.

[Mcbenchpress]

Assuming its not tuned wildly above the other two specs, Sub won't be worth the hassle come progression time. It'll be great in PvP though.

[Wow]

Assuming its not tuned wildly above the other two specs, Sub won't be worth the hassle come progression time. It'll be great in PvP though.

Which makes whole different kind of problem. If you want to say main assassin and off spec combat as its the aoe spec again you're going to have a hard enough time getting the combat one up much less doing both of those and getting sub's done so you can pvp.

The grind after grind after grind after grind they put in for everything this exp is going to burn a lot out much less the other big issues...

[kalaratic]

shadow focus back to 50% reduction. at least they realized no one would run it as it was before.